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Memories of Ice
Group Read - Memories of Ice
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MOI - Chapter Twenty-One - NO SPOILERS
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The Knight of Death seems to be an old friend that we left behind in DG! Dead, mind you, but still.
Mod
Good pickup Linette.
...that bronze hue to your skin...
...‘I once stood within fire.’...
...I was, I think, sworn to defend a child’s life. But the child was no more. It may be ... that I failed.’
...if only by your features and never mind that strange skin, you’re Malazan...
Yep. Sounds exactly like someone we know from last book - who died but now it seems is in service to Hood. We also encounter him earlier in this book
Two Gidrath soldiers in the Great Hall below were from that foolhardy but noble defence, and one of them bore recent wounds that would most likely prove fatal. The other, a bull of a man who had knelt before Rath’Hood, seemed no longer able to sleep.
A battered longsword was held in each hand, the one on the left bent by a wild swing that had struck a marble column two nights past.
Anyway - it's another sign that Hood is on team K'rul - sending his man straight from where he died in Seven Cities - across the ocean and into the defense of Capustan.
Coll and Murillio have taken off with the Mhybe. They are concerned that nobody is doing anything to ease her suffering and are looking for a temple where she might receive comfort or even euthanized if necessary.
Whatever is going on with the Mhybe she has perked the interest of Korbal Broach who is into all things dead and dying. Fortunately, Hood has sent his Knight to track down the Mhybe and so it appears that Hood is very much involved in her condition - The Lord of Death denying her the comfort of dying because something else is going on.
‘Not for you,’ the warrior rumbled. ‘Her spirit awaits. And those of her gathered kin. And the beasts whose hearts are empty. All await. Not for you.’
It also appears that our two necromancers have raised Hood's ire. There are people who need to cross over - and the necromancers have interfered with the process by keeping them as an undead security force around their fortress. Hood would like them back.
Korbal Broach, hear the words of my master. You are to release the undead who guard your compound. You and the one named Bauchelain are to leave the city. This night.’
What about the artist and his pet (toad) critic. It's got to be Erikson taking the piss out of his critics by depicting them as toads right? A little self indulgent commentary on the relationship between artists/writers and their critics.
Two Gidrath soldiers in the Great Hall below were from that foolhardy but noble defence, and one of them bore recent wounds that would most likely prove fatal. The other, a bull of a man who had knelt before Rath’Hood, seemed no longer able to sleep.A battered longsword was held in each hand, the one on the left bent by a wild swing that had struck a marble column two nights past.
Oh - I didn't get this at the time, you're right, it's our same friend. Happy he's back.
I have no idea what the artist and the toad was about, but they seemed to consider him and his wagon to be important. If that is SE's swipe at critics it's pretty funny.
Mod
Dujek states that the reason the command structure was inverted was not merely about putting her own people in control.
Laseen inverted the command structure for a reason, you know.’
‘So the right people would be there at ground level when Shadowthrone and Cotillion made their move, aye.’
‘Not just them, Whiskeyjack.’
Which means the Empress was well aware from the get go that the Emperor and Cotillion had ascended and made moves to prepare for their revenge.
Tattersail was being groomed by Tayshrenn to be Master(Mistress) of the Deck!
Tayschrenn was grooming Tattersail to the role of Mistress of the Deck, after all. And when that went wrong, well, there was a residual effect – straight to the man closest to her at the time. Not physically, but certainly spiritually.
WOW! So when Tattersail died the role passed by association to her lover ie Paran. Otherwise she would have been the man...errr I mean woman. It wasn't supposed to happen and it was Oponn's luck that it wasn't more disastrous than it was.
We’ll never know what happened between him and Tattersail on that plain, but by the Abyss it ranks as one of the worst foul-ups in imperial history. That the role of Master of the Deck fell to a Malazan and not to some Gadrobi herder who’d happened to be nearby, well, Oponn’s luck played into our hands there, and that’s about all we can say of that, I think.’
But this also shows that Tayschrenn is a bigger player in the game than we are led to believe. If he can facilitate a new Master of the Deck then he is up their in power with a lot of the big hitters like Brood and Rake.
And then we get to the betrayal of the Bridgeburners at Pale
‘Best forgive her her panics, Whiskeyjack. Shows she’s mortal, after all.’
‘Virtually wiping out the Bridgeburners at Pale—’
‘Was an accident and while you didn’t know it at the time, you know it now. Tayschrenn ordered them to remain in the tunnels because he thought it was the safest place. The safest.’
So the tunnel collapsing, according to Dujek anyway, was an accident. They were ordered in there to protect them from the sorcery that would be unleashed. And we can see how the army above ground was indeed wiped out by sorcery.
WhiskeyJack is still clinging to the notion that she still intended himself as collateral damage. We'll have to make up our own mind as readers about that.
Then we have the battle between the mages on the ground. Tayschrenn killing Nightchill was proof to the bridgeburners that Laseen was stabbing them in the back. But now we have a different version of events.
It turns out that Tayschrenn(and thus the empress) got wind through one of the other mages present ie "A'Karonys" that NightChill was after Rake's sword. This rings true for me given that we now know from when she contacts Paran that she wants to free Draconus from that sword. Of course, the Empress has no intention of letting one of her supposed subordinates going rogue and getting hold of arguably one of the most dangerous weapons in history. So A'Karonys and Tayshrenn were not to let Nightchill anywhwere near the sword. I'm assuming AK decided to strike first and Nightchill retaliated and then Tayschrenn summons a demon who tears Nightchill apart.
The end result is that Tay's attention is divided and he is unable to effectively take down Moonspawn. But he still damages the sky fortress which again emphasizes Tay as a heavy hitter able to go toe to toe with Rake while taking down an Elder goddess on the side.
That battle didn’t go as planned. Tayschrenn really believed he could take down Moon’s Spawn – and force Rake into the open. And had he not been left virtually on his own in the attack, things might well have turned out differently. From what I learned later, Tayschrenn didn’t know at the time who Nightchill really was, but he knew she was closing in on Rake’s sword. Her and Bellurdan, who she was using to do her research for her. It looked like a play for power, a private one, and Laseen wasn’t prepared to permit that. And even then, Tayschrenn only hit her when she took out A’Karonys – the very High Mage who came to Tayschrenn with his suspicions about her. When I said Bellurdan killing Tattersail was the worst foul-up in Malazan history, that day at Pale runs a close second.’
So if we believe this account then Tayschrenn (and the Empress) did NOT betray the bridgeburners at all. And Tay at least is sorry for what happened - according to him.
‘And to you, Whiskeyjack. Oh, one last thing.’
‘Yes?’
‘Tayschrenn. He’s been wanting to apologize to you. For what happened to the Bridgeburners.’
‘He knows where to find me, Dujek.’
‘He wants a proper moment.’
‘What’s proper?’
‘I’m not sure, but it hasn’t happened yet.’’
The other thing that is turned on its head is the attrocity we learned about in last book ie The T'lan Imass massacre of Aren
‘All starting, I’d say, with the T’lan Imass slaughtering the citizens of Aren. But, as even with that one, each disaster yields its truths. Laseen didn’t give that order, but someone did. Someone returned to sit down in that First Throne – and that someone was supposed to be dead – and he used the T’lan Imass to wreak vengeance on Laseen, to shake her grip on the Empire.
This puts the responsibility for the massacre at Shadowthrone's feet. The interesting thing about that is, if it is true, then Cotillion is unaware of this fact. Part of his hatred for her was that massacre - I think from memory so far. But then again I thought the massacre happened before the ascension -but I may have read that wrong.
Anyway, according to this passage the Aren Massacre happened post ascension and was ordered by Shadowthrone.
I also like that Erikson links this book and the last by showing us where Quick Ben organises the Trygalle Guild to transport munition to Fiddler at Tremorlor
‘The sappers will howl,’ Paran said as the two of them resumed their walk towards the Malazan encampment, newly established on the south shore of Catlin River.
Quick Ben shrugged. ‘I’ll take Hedge to one side for a word or two. After all, Fiddler’s closer than a brother to him, and with the mess that Fid’s got into he needs all the help he can get.
And is the Bhokaral actually Moby? Soon to be Guardian of Tremorlor?
With that Kruppe withdrew with a flourish a small glass ball from the handkerchief, then dropped it to the ground. It broke with a soft tinkle. Mists rose, gathered knee-high between the Daru and the two Malazans, and slowly assumed the form of a bhokaral.
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‘He is yours, Destriant.(recognising her title and therefore all it encompasses) With my blessing.’
She staggered then, against her horse, which grunted and sidestepped.
Paran spun. ‘What—’
Mod
I knew that I should know who the Knight is, and it was driving me bonkers! It had to be someone from the Silanda, because of the bronze coloring and having gone through fire, but it couldn't be Gesler since he's now Trake's. I finally looked it up via Malazan encyclopedia! And realized I had completely forgotten about this character.A bunch of stuff here that is wonderful exposition in the conversation between Whiskeyjack and Dujek. So they've known all along about TCG, and that's been behind many of Laseen's actions. I most definitely trust their POVs so believe in what they say, but I still do NOT trust Laseen. And what about Tayschrenn? We understand a lot more now.
I was trying to remember what happened in Aren, and I thought the "he" was Kallor, since he is the occupant of the First Throne.
More explained - what Nightchill wanted. Free Draconus!
I find it interesting that the Destriant of the Grey Swords still has no name...
And this read I noticed 2 or 3 sentences about some spiders that sound horrific...
Mod
Well Kallor has a Throne which he carts around with him and plays make believe with. But the "First Throne" is specifically the First Throne of the the T'lan Imass (which Kallor never sat on), and whoever sits on it rules the T'lan.
I think you have it in your head that Kallor ruled the human version of the First Empire - and some of the wikis even have that as well(minus the one I edited) -but the Prologue clearly has Kallor ruling a separate Empire on Jacuruku as a contemporary to the First Empire which was on Seven Cities.
Caught up! Technically, I'm even a little ahead of schedule, since I read this chapter and the next as one chunk.Gumble sounded to me like more of a swipe at High Art, Great Literature, and all that. Similar to the disparaging comments about scholars we've had here and there. Hilarious, anyway.
Lots of fascinating stuff in what Dujek tells - not least that Quick Ben knew Laseen would talk Kalam out of assassinating her! - but I'm not clear on why he's telling it to Whiskeyjack, and whether it's the first time they've gone over it. It didn't seem as natural an infodump as Erikson usually manages.
That's true that it it was more infodump than anything else, although we see the true friendship between WJ and Dukel, the love and friendship that gives meaning to a life that is witness to such horror. Silvio your thought on Grumble made me wonder if SE is further commenting on how the genre of fantasy is still not accorded membership in the ivory tower but rather looked down on. I think much of greatest works of literature is sf/fantasy.
David now you're really confusing me and shattering some things I held as truths! WTF??!!! Yet a third First Empire? On Genanachis? Who was in that?
Hee even wiki had it wrong til your correction! There's another site that a great encyclopedia, it's part of forum too.
Mod
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Noooooooo.......
from the Prologue - where K'rul is walking on Korelri on his way to deal with Kallor on Jakaruku
The First Empire had risen, on a continent half a world away from where K’rul now walked. An empire of humans, born from the legacy of the T’lan Imass, from whom it took its name.
But it had not been alone for long. Here, on Jacuruku, in the shadow of long-dead K’Chain Che’Malle ruins, another empire had emerged. Brutal, a devourer of souls, its ruler was a warrior without equal.
Kallor's Empire is never called The First Empire (as far as I know). So there are only two "First Empires" - The T'lan Imass, and then the Human Empire on Seven Cities that arrogantly stole the name for themselves. The Imass didn't like that at all. There is no other First Empire - as yet anyway.
Plus we didn't know how much they knew all the way to the source, TCG. This adds much more depth to the Malazan head honchos and forces me to reassess my contempt of Laseen. She is not going after the Seer because he threatens her empire but going after TCG himself to right the world again. And I loved how they believe its gonna come down to them because the Elders are gonna muck things up. AGAIN! What chutzpah!Ah the Malazans. Sometimes I wonder which country SE was basing this on.
Lori (Hellian) wrote: "Plus we didn't know how much they knew all the way to the source, TCG. This adds much more depth to the Malazan head honchos and forces me to reassess my contempt of Laseen. She is not going after ..."I'm reacting similarly. I've been giving Laseen the benefit of the doubt since her little interview with Kalam in DG, but as a first time reader I never suspected she knew what the gods were up to. I was also amazed that Laseen's demotion of her best commanders wasn't all it seemed - she didn't want to get rid of them, she "inverted the command structure" so they would be where she needed them most.
I've been trying to notice whether the Malazans were inspired by any real-world empire. The obvious candidates for an Anglo-American series would be Rome, Britain, and the contemporary U.S., but I haven't seen any giveaways for any of them, though you could argue that there are elements of all three mixed in there. Of course there are tons of other empires to consider too. The fantasy elements are pervasive enough to keep it from being too similar to anything historical, anyway. I have a hard time imagining any real empire being prepared to clean up their own gods' messes like Laseen is.
When I compare Tattersail's recollection of Pale in GotM 2 with Dujek's account, one thing bothers me. A'Karonys' death is described after Nightchill's, so it doesn't make sense to me that Tayschrenn attacked Nightchill because she attacked A'Karonys.
Mod
So now you have to work out whether it is a writing inconsistency or whether what Tayschrenn told Dujeck was 'his' version of the truth. :)
Mod
So there were some interesting minor points (although we don't know how minor they will end up). Silverfox is obviously freaked out that her mother has been whisked away. She gives us the impression that she was actually protecting her, what effect that will have on Silverfox we shall have to wait and see. How much is she still drawing from her mother? Silverfox went very quickly into womanhood and I missed this last time, but she obviously now looks like Tattersail as when there is a meeting of the women, she is described as heavy set.
What a meeting that was, you hav to love Hetan, she knows how to get down and enjoy life when all else are dour and serious.
The Trygalle trade group are an amazing organisation, There ability in the warrens is a huge part of their abilities. In this chapter there is discussions of Quick Ben supplying Fiddler with some Moranth Munitions. Is this the time when Fiddler receives them on the road to the Azath house in the last book?
Mod
Yep about the Moranth ammunitions and Fiddler, I really enjoyed being able to link the times of the two books. Totally missed that last time!
Mod
Yes - though he was encased in "ethereal wing of ice" and frozen to death - which would still lead me to believe that Nightchill took him out (I'm connecting "Nightchill" and "Sister of Cold Nights" with ICE or freezing magic) either the sorcery had been unleashed before she died or the account has both mages actions occurring simultaneously.
Or else Tayschrenn is lying or its an actual inconsistency.
Dujek gives one version of the inversion of the command structure. Picker and Blend have a parallel discussion where they talk about how everyone has been broken in rank, except for Blend who never got noticed enough to be promoted in the first place, and Antsy, who has always been a Sergeant, as punishment to all the rest.I'm inclined to think that there's some truth in all the accounts. Surly would either break the ranks of people who might be a threat to her, or purge them. The ones who could later be of use to her, she might invert the command structure, instead of simply offing them. Instead of seeing it as amazing planning, I think of it more as here keeping her options open, and then being a tactical opportunist.
And even though this was all an info dump, I think the main point was Dujek was trying to convince WJ that the stuff at Pale was more accidental than intentional, because he may be afraid of a rift between the Bridgeburners and the cause of the Empire. And he has some reason to be afraid, because WJ leaves the meeting suspecting Dujek of some ulterior motive, and believing that WJ himself was the target of the collapse of the tunnels at Pale. As such, I don't think everything in this info dump is perfectly reliable.
Mod
The only "Malazans" I remember "dying" were Coltaine (and I always considered him more Wickan than Malazan) and Duiker.
Coltaine's soul was carried away by birds as I recall, despite the best efforts of those assholes that killed him.
Duiker was soul shifted by QB's trinket. I'm sure there are others, but so many people died on the chain of dogs
Even with all your discussion, I have no idea who it is, and it's pissing me off. My memory sucks for stuff like this. If you want me to spout off a bunch of pointless song lyrics on the other hand..
Can someone post who it is/refresh my memory about how they died in spoiler tags? I don't want to go searching for it for fear of spoiling other parts.
David Sven wrote: "And I think Paran just accidentally recognised and blessed the Grey Swords and by extension their two new gods"
I really liked that part.
Mod
Man. Now you have me suddenly wondering if (view spoiler)
I put that in tags even though it's just a guess. I don't want to know if I'm right though.
I haven't given it much thought before now. I don't usually spend a lot of time trying to figure the story out, and prefer to just go along for the ride instead.
Mod
Baudin, the bodyguard who gets sent by Tavore to the Otataral mines to guard Felisin - He gets his "bronze hue" from going through the warren with the Silanda and he burns to death when fighting the rat swarm divers in the desert
Mod
Mod
Mod
How quickly I forget things.
Rob, I forgot all about him too and this is my second read! It was driving me nuts so I looked it up in the Malazan Encyclopedia.
David Sven wrote: "Silvio wrote: "one thing bothers me. A'Karonys' death is described after Nightchill's"Yes - though he was encased in "ethereal wing of ice" and frozen to death - which would still lead me to beli..."
Good point about "cold nights" and freezing. I actually read the "wings of ice" literally as meaning that some sort of ice demon killed A'Karonys, which would make it even more plausible that it kept on operating after Nightchill died, but I guess describing sorcery that way would be a typical sort of metaphor with Erikson.
Duffy wrote: "Dujek gives one version of the inversion of the command structure. Picker and Blend have a parallel discussion where they talk about how everyone has been broken in rank, except for Blend who neve..."
Duffy, I very much like this post. Even at his most infodumpy, Erikson is keeping character motives in mind.
I've got another question. Why do you think Quick Ben is always so short with Kruppe? I haven't decided if its on general principle, or because Kruppe seems to know too much, or because Ben realizes that Kruppe may be smarter than him, and that rankles. Maybe a combination of all three. It seems to me, however, that they could do a lot more if the really smart people co-operated with each other, and the really smart ones should be smart enough to know that.
Mod
Duffy wrote: "I've got another question. Why do you think Quick Ben is always so short with Kruppe? I haven't decided if its on general principle, or because Kruppe seems to know too much, or because Ben reali..."I hadn't noticed this til you mentioned it, but all the reasons you and David Sven have mentioned sound likely to me. Probably not many characters in this universe are as unused to having their plans figured out as Quick Ben.
David Sven wrote: "I think Kruppe tends to annoy a lot of people in general. He has his fingers in so many pies (and pastries)and always seems to poke his nose in uninvited. Quick would be annoyed I think because he ..."He has an amazing ability to listen in on people's conversation and then "accidentally" walk in. Very different spy strategy to Blend, who no-one notices. (I loved that comment how she never got promoted because she doesn't get noticed :D)
David Sven wrote: "And I think Paran just accidentally recognised and blessed the Grey Swords and by extension their two new gods
‘He is yours, Destriant.(recognising her title and therefore all it encompasses) With..."
Yes, if you're the master of the deck i think you should avoid words like "you have my blessing"
Itkovian returned his gaze to the south. After a moment he sighed. "Cities and governments are but the flowering head of a plant whose stalk is the commonalty whose roots are within the earth, drawing the necessary sustenance that maintains the flower. The Tenescowri, sir, is the Domin's surviving commonalty - people torn from their land, from their villages, their homes, their farms. All food production has ceased, and in its place has arisen the horror of cannibalism. The countryside before us is indeed razed, but not in answer to us. It has been a wasteland for some time, sir. Thus, while the flower still blazes its colour, it is in fact already dead."
Methinks SE is reasonably versed in Hobbs, Locke and Marx.
I figured out who the Knight of Death was pretty quickly. The bronze-hued skin was a giveaway to me. Also helps having Deadhouse Gates fresh in my memory. Glad to see him back in some way. I want more on these Talons.Whiskeyjack and Dujek's conversation was illuminating in many ways but also has me asking a lot of questions. Like what really happened at Pale? Honestly, the whole thing is still a bit fuzzy to me.
As for Quick Ben and Kruppe, I think Ben gets annoyed with him because Kruppe is as smart or smarter than QB and QB doesn't want his secret plans figured out. Kruppe will definitely figure them out.
I'm glad there are little moments tying the events of Deadhouse Gates into Memories Of Ice, like Quick Ben sending the Moranth Munitions to Fiddler. I've been waiting for QB's quick conversation with Kalam, keeping in mind that things are going to go south soon (literally and figuratively).
I want to see more of the Trygalle Trade Guild. Silverfox's comment about them being run by a cadre of High Mages so they can access the warrens intrigues me.
Mod
Don't worry, you will :)
But you have to admit Kruppe IS annoying to someone like Ben! Just chatters on and on without revealing a thing about himself. Well not the important things, only his love of pastries.
I can see how Kruppe annoys most people. He talks all the time and it sounds like senseless prattling. It *sounds* like lots of words with no meaning but there's a lot in there. I'd likely want to smash his pastries in his face were I a Bridgeburner stuck with him.
Another awesome chapter. So despite reading DG just a few weeks ago I couldn't figure out who the Knight of death was. However after reading some of the above posts I suspect it's (view spoiler) Don't tell me if I'm wrong because I'm psyched at the possible return of one of my favourite characters :D
The Whiskeyjack/Dujek scene was great. There were more mysteries and schemes in that conversation than most series'. I'm still suspicious and hostile towards Laseen and especially Tayschrenn but this scene opened up some very interesting possibilities about them. It's also interesting to note that Onearm, the loyal old soldier and perhaps Whiskeyjack's best friend might have been in on the assassination plot. This has set up a really tense, complex web of intrigue and suspicion. Awesome.
So can anyone explain Laseen's 'inverting the command structure'? I get that she was demoting people but what was the point exactly? Surely if she was planning to face off against the CG it would be more beneficial to have the best people in the most important positions? I like how we've seen this policy in effect throughout the series though. In this chapter Picker and Blend were talking about it and I seem to remember that it was mentioned in DG that Stormy and Gesler used to have high ranks.
I really like the idea that so much has happened because of bad communication between the various overlapping schemes (i.e. Tayschrenn claiming he killed Nightchill because he suspected she was going rogue). I'm also really interested to find out what really happened at Pale. I'm hoping the difference between the 2 accounts are due to some plot within the series and not an inconsistency from Erikson. That would be really annoying. It's also interesting that Tayschrenn is apparently really powerful. When I realized who Nightchill was I thought she must have been pretty weak to have been killed by a mortal mage but this chapter revealed how dangerous Tayschrenn is. And wasn't it implied in an earlier chapter than Tayschreen is nearby and is a threat to Dujek and Whiskeyjack? Things are really set up for an epic finale.
Mod
She was demoting the old guard, people loyal to the former Emperor or who she saw as a threat and attempting to buy the loyalty of the soldiers under them by giving them high positions. I suspect she expected the old guard to kick up a fuss and so give her a precedent for executing them - instead, many of them just disappeared while some, like Whiskeyjack just got on with it.
Okay sorry, I should have explained better. I've taken that much as a given from the start (it's a pretty standard political power-play) but here Dujek and Whiskeyjack, who were part of the 'old guard' seemed to be implying that Laseen had some other, more 'noble' motivation that had something to do with her knowledge of the impending war with the CG. Or did I just mis-read it?
Mod
I just put something together that is probably obvious but in case anyone (else) wanted to know why Nightchill would want Rake's sword... (view spoiler)Not fan a of the info dump talk between WJ and One arm or that silly painter stuff.
Otherwise a great chapter. Love all the bro-love.
the daub found in subtle shift
to alter the once familiar visage.
Or the child who formed unseen
in private darkness as you whiled oblivious
to reveal cruel shock as a stone
through a temple's pane.
To these there is no armour on the soul.
And upon the mask is writ the bold word,
echoed in the child's eyes,
a sudden stranger to all you have known.
Such is betrayal.
Death Vigil of Sorulan
Minir Othal