The Transition Movement discussion
Random optimisms
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Ted
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Apr 21, 2013 09:16AM
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http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04...
Sometimes I run across something that does make me glad to be human.
The story came to my attention via a post within our local Transition group. I believe the organic food connection was the focus of the post, but for me (and my wife) the story of this young researcher was the item of most interest.
So posts don't have to be about a particular book? I thought about asking you on the 'greetings' thread but I thought I might look too spacy, in other words, like I joined without fully understanding what I was signing up for ... which I guess I did, but I figured if it involves discussions about common interests (whether I'm reading the same books as the rest of the group or not) is worth making time for. This thread makes me think that discussions can be informal and about random thoughts ('deep' or not, in the Jack Handy style) and much more casual. Either way, it will be fun to follow along.
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Yes, vague works! :o) I'm dealing in vague everything right now (writing as well as reading vague books). A few random thoughts after reading the blog you posted a link for:
1. Yikes! 'Conventionally grown food' refers to the industrial food chain!
2. Having been to banana plantations before, I always find it hard to imagine them grown organically (whatever that category means nowadays, but specifically when it comes to not using pesticides).
3. That sophomore student is amazing! Her follow-up study based on issues that emerged from her original project are very interesting, too!
For all the publicity that those studies regarding non-organic food being just as nutritious as organic produce got last summer or so, I'm glad to see others -- including HS students -- mobilizing to counter those claims. It's not just nutritional value that makes organic produce better; this is just one aspect. But it's good to know that there are other ways of looking at this issue that might yield different results, like this study with fruit flies. Very interesting!
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We've always felt that the reason we want to buy organic food is to keep away from the industrial chemicals, and perhaps secondarily to get food that likely tastes better.
No reason to ever think that the vitamins, etc in organic food would be much different than in "normal" fruits and vegetables.
By the way, many local CSAs deliver organic, or near-organic, food without being able to say officially that their food is organic. It's apparently a very difficult and lengthy process for a small farm to be certified organic. Many of them are probably in the process without having yet completed the multi-year procedures required, and would already be staying away from the industrial chemicals.
Yes, exactly, Ted. The bureaucratic process is sometimes too lengthy for smaller-scale farmers to get certified. Plus, 'certified organic', 'certified naturally grown', and when it comes to animals 'free range', 'organically fed', etc., are all labels that don't tell the whole story. Like you, for me what's important is the minimal use to no use of chemicals and living in NYC, I sadly have come to expect my produce to not be the tastiest since no matter what, it's mostly coming from miles away. But I do try to buy food from Green Markets (since CSAs can be pricey and the fruits and vegetables can mean quantities that are difficult to manage), which helps improve the taste of food. It's hard to take on corporate farms, but worth it on so many levels. I just worry that responding in this way -- i.e., buying organic, etc. -- leaves the issue mostly unaddressed since expensive food prices just leave out poor and working people to keep eating from corporate farms, expanding inequality. It's such a hard problem to tackle.
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Will Allen is the first person I heard about involved in this. It's grown a lot since he started his group, but I think he has been a shining light, not least because of his background as a top notch basketball player who played a bit professionally.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_All...
Yes, he's very exciting! His system for growing food, including aquaculture, is impressive! But being from NYC, I have a hard time imagining this on a scale that works. For starters, NYC and other cities like it are too heavily built and have few spaces. Next, we have soils that are not just depleted but in too many cases, polluted. We also have *a lot* of people. It would take many, many farms like Allen's just about everywhere to feed this type of population ... and the real estate interests are too deeply entrenched in politics and otherwise for spaces to become available for urban farms. Farming in apartments is pie in the sky, I think ... and not just that, but I think it's too much of an individualistic and consumerist response to the problem. I think Allen's system is great for the Rust Belt, but I have been having a hard time imagining it here. I often wonder if I'm too pessimistic, but I just don't see it. Maybe my pessimism is better suited for your other thread on the subject. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking these efforts because at least they're addressing poor people's needs, which you're pointing to. I just wish there was something that could radically change things sooner rather than later. But I guess that's a problem, too, looking for a solution that will fix everything all at once ...
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Maybe the discussion should move to the "pessimisms" thread? :)
Seriously!! I'm such a downer! I try to not be that way. I'll try to stay positive -- at least on the optimistic threads! ;o)
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As of now, our 21 members have about 2500 friends on Goodreads (thanks to Hend for almost a third of those), so there is room for spreading the word.
Also of the six members who reveal their age, throwing out the oldest (me) the other five have an average age of only 35. That is really good. In our local Transition movement the average age is closer to my age (68) than it is to 35.
I don't think in Howard County we have any active members under 40. Anyone under 50 rocks!
Anyone over 50 rocks, too!! But I see why you've posted this on the random optimisms thread! :o)
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True, us older ones are the leading culprits for the mess we're in.
But the younger ones are going to pay the price, and it's in their own self-interest to be involved.
Unfortunately the way of the world is that once you are out of school, career and family concerns naturally take over and it does become very hard to commit time to something that it "over the horizon".
The only thing I can think of saying to young people who "don't have time" for environmental concerns is this: "I know it's difficult. Perhaps you could devote one-half the hours you spend each week watching TV to these things?"
If they watch no TV, fine.
I didn't think you were disparaging older people, Ted. I know you were just glad to see some younger folks getting involved. I just wanted to give older people some credit, too, as I often see what you're talking about in this second post. It's often the older folks who are out there making a difference (see it in my union, at environmental events, etc.), but it's always the younger people who are appreciated and get more credit. It sometimes feels like politics and social movements have become further splintered along age, with labor getting older, and the younger people not joining those struggles and creating their own ... including the Occupy movements ... and I'm not so convinced this is a good thing.Anyway, just wanted to return the shout out! :o)
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I could go on and on about these more recent trends in fracturing movements, but I'll start complaining about it and that would put me back on the pessimism side of the spectrum -- on the wrong thread! ;o)
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But this ( http://plantagon.com/ )is certainly a radical and optimistic idea for urban agriculture. The video is mostly a cool image video without a lot of details, but there do appear to be more nitty-gritty info in the drop down menus on top.
This is based in Linkoping Sweden, and is scheduled to open next year.
Other urban ag links, from the latest edition of EDF Solutions :
1.usa.gov/13JkrVB
bit.ly/bj2sGU
http://foodtank.org/
http://www.urbangardensweb.com/
I know that there is a chapter in the book we're going to read that deals with this topic to some extent.
I do believe that the possibilities of urban agriculture are understood better by the optimistic practitioners than by most people. Of course one of the things that must be accepted is that "meat" produced by urban agriculture will probably be limited to chickens and eggs - say goodbye for the most part to beef as a staple of developed world diets.
I can see this working in Sweden. People there are very committed to sustainability and working together. The US is committed to neither of those things. I see this becoming some private sector 'solution' developed by wealthy people who will then hire immigrants to work the new farms and we'll have another version of the tiered system we currently have ... except those who can afford it will be eating well and the rest of us will be feeding from the industrial farms ... some from better producers than others. Food is just one of those areas that I don't see radically changing because there seems to be no political will. And worse, the absolute faith that Americans place on the private sector, combined with distrust of government, leaves me feeling frustrated and pessimistic.
This pessimism/optimism thing really is a slippery slope!! You're trying to make things positive again and I'm not helping. Sorry, Ted!
But on the upside, I agree with you that 'meat' will not mean the same thing we've become accustomed to in industrialized nations. But less cows is a good thing. So at least that would be a very positive change. We should make better use of marine resources and just eat less animals in general. It's not a bad thing, but the opposite, to abandon the large quantity of animal protein consumed in the developed world.
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But one thing you may be overlooking is that social change (even in the U.S.) can occur with astounding speed when the conditions are right.
Yes we should all be eating less meat, the resources consumed to produce a quarter pound burger are far beyond what the average person could ever guess.
I don't like being a cynic! I try not to be but sometimes, I just can't see light at the end of this tunnel. You're right that change can occur with astounding speed, especially here. I was talking about the rapid cultural change in perspective on gay marriage in class last week. It can happen. But the focus on consumerism over citizenship, individualism over collective responses, leaves me with little hope in people really coming together to address this major problem here at home. I'll be very happy to be wrong though!
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I'm wondering what members think of these remarks? Have they made you somewhat optimistic? Or are you cynical and believe that nothing much will come of this?
I'm going to post the same comment on both the "optimisms" and the "pessimisms" discussions.
Reply on one or both threads if you like to make remarks about this.
A friend told me about an amazing Brazilian photographer called Sebastião Salgado. He photographs humanitarian and ecological issues. A film has just been made about him called "Salt of the Earth". I won't be able to see the film I suspect, but I found a wonderful TED talk that he gave about his work. I found it most inspiring.http://www.ted.com/talks/sebastiao_sa...
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That is a great talk, Caroline. He's quite a photographer, and a man who's aware of what is going on to a wonderful extent.
Thanks for watching it Ted! I'm glad you enjoyed it :O)
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This time, however, the difference could be felt throughout the world.
Yes, I'm talking about Pope Francis. I no longer have the religious trappings I was brought up with, but I am tentatively filled with hope that the leader of this world religion might somehow be a force for change. Everything he has done so far is uplifting to me, from his laying aside of the harping about abortion, to his seeming acceptance of gay people as human beings, to his crackdown on bishops who have treated abuse by priests with kid gloves, to his many remarks on the dangerous and unethical aspects of global trade and capitalism - and now (in a couple days) to his major encyclical on the environment and global warming, of which a preliminary version was leaked yesterday.
The document associates polluted environments with “global inequality”; the people “hit harder” are those always excluded from consideration, “the majority of those who live on the planet, … billions of people … They get mentioned … but their problems are mostly introduced as an addendum … something peripheral … But today we can’t avoid stating that a true ecological approach must always become a social approach, integrating justice in the debate about environment, so that we listen to the cry of Earth (as well as) to the cry of the poor.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015...
Am I once again being naive to think that something momentous may be occurring? I suppose.
Still - hope ... hope ... hope
Ted, I have the same hope as you. He is saying things that need to be said and many don't want to hear. He is saying things that many people do not hear from anyone else that they may listen to and may actually want to hear. An interesting conundrum. I was talking to a friend last week who is very much anticipating Pope Francis' address before Congress as he expects the climate and capitalism and global trade issues to be high on his agenda.
So yes, hope, hope.
He does seem a pope cast in a very new mould, and although he's a man with great influence, he nevertheless seems imbued with great integrity and humility. We are fortunate that he is taking an interest in ecological issues...
I think that Pope Francis is probably the best pope there ever was, and I am worried about his life. Back in the 1970s, there was also a pope who wanted to "clean house" in the Vatican. He died only weeks after his inauguration; there is reason to believe that he was poisoned.Something else: Is this group only interested in the ecology and healthy foods or also in animal welfare?
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Lilo, the danger you speak of to Francis is something I have thought of also. Hopefully I'm just being paranoid. If something did happen to him I would be very discouraged.
I think animal welfare does enter into the concern about global warming in this way. It is said by some that a major portion of greenhouse gases are produced in growing food for animals - because we want to eat them. Thus it is argued that one way to address the problem would be to convince enormous numbers of people to become vegetarians.
Of course there is a growing concern about the treatment of animals raised for their meat in the industrial farming model which holds here in the States, and in much of the "developed" world. That's an ethical issue which is a little bit apart from the issues that I normally think of in regard to Transition (though there are other ethical issues which I believe are more closely involved).
Ted wrote: "Lilo wrote: "I think that Pope Francis is probably the best pope there ever was, and I am worried about his life. Back in the 1970s, there was also a pope who wanted to "clean house" in the Vatican..."I hope you don't mind me butting in. I agree with you Ted. I think there are now a lot of people arguing that we should eat less meat because of the calorie wastage that happens when you get your calories via eating meat... So many people to feed - we can't go squandering calories on feeding animals.
I thought the greenhouse gases were a by product of the animals themselves, not the crops used to feed them though. I would be interested to hear more.
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You're right about the gases coming from the animals! But when the fertilizer, and the tractor driving & transportation required to plant the feed crops, harvest them etc is considered there a fair amount of additional greenhouse gases. I'm not an expert in this, so I can't accurately put percentages on things. I suppose there are numbers out there.
Besides the GH gas issue, there's also the enormous quantity of water needed to grow the feed that grows the meat. Water can be easy to come by in some places, and much more difficult in others, like California for example, with their multi-year drought in progress.
Yes, water is a huge issue, and I hadn't thought of that. I also hadn't factored in the other things you mentioned....
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"Given in Rome at Saint Peter’s on 24 May, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 2015, the third of my Pontificate."
I thought what all the recent news was about was an encyclical that was just made public a few days ago. If that is correct, then where is that document, and what is the relation between the two.
At any rate: http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesc...
Ted, I am afraid you are more noble than I am. That was a very long document. I shall just take it on the authority of others that he is making a positive statement about the state of the planet and mankind's behaviour.
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What I've seen of it is very impressive. One criticism I've seen a couple of times is that he didn't press on the issue of population control. I suspect that even if the pope were so open minded as to realize that is a legitimate issue, he probably couldn't get away with saying it.
Ted wrote: "Caroline, I didn't read it all, or even most of it. It is very long, but I just wanted to post the link here to have it available for myself and others.What I've seen of it is very impressive. On..."
Yes - I agree with you totally.
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This is really worth a read.
In two weeks Pope Francis will be in Washington D.C. for a three day visit. He meets with Obama on 9/23, and will address a joint session of Congress the next day. There are plans for a climate rally on the Mall on the 24th, which I hope to attend, though traffic and crowds will probably be immense ... still trying to map out the logistics of this.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/...
Having big problems with my computer - kept timing out before the link could open! Hopefully I will remember to come back to it once my internet connection is fixed. Anyway thanks for the link Ted.
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Hi Ted, Thank you, but I misled you, the problem is a personal one relating to my computer connections. I am at the moment liaising with my ISP in an effort to sort it out...
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Glad you could make it, Trav! ;)
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instead of emphasizing cap-and-trade schemes and penalties on greenhouse gas emissions -- strategies considered to be most efficient by many economists -- policymakers should begin by providing benefits through green industrial policies, such as subsidies and tax rebates.
That sounds sensible to me.
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No, you didn't mislead Caroline, I was only trying to make sure that the links seemed to be okay. I understood that you thought you had an issue at your end, and concluded that you were probably correct.
I'm not sure if what I read today was an optimism, Ted, but maybe it is in the sense of increasing clarity--always a reason for optimism. I'm speaking of the lead-off piece in the 1/11/16 New Yorker, by Amy Davidson. I expect you probably have read it. Anyway, it made me think of you and this group!http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201...
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Yes, I did read it, but it had quite slipped my mind. I think because, like you, I didn't quite know what to make of it, though it was certainly interesting (I had never heard of that European famine before). Perhaps your "increasing clarity" is a good way of putting it, Jan.
And speaking of random optimisms, there's a story in the Post today reporting record new investments and record increased power output in solar and wind in 2015, despite the sinking prices of fossil fuels.
I keep wondering what part, if any, the divestment campaign (and the big events of last year, the Pope's encyclical on climate change and the Paris agreements) are cumulatively beginning to sink into the investment community. I think more people are starting to realize that the book value of the fossil fuel companies, predicated on the reserves of fossil fuel in the ground that they own, are overstated, perhaps vastly. For most of those reserves surely cannot be recovered and burned for any purpose, if the world is to survive as a livable place for us humans over the next several decades.
I just happened to see a Notification of new comments to this group discussion. The last comment I had seen was my own # 29 of June 16. I better change my settings so that I will receive e-mail notifications.I'll invite my GR friend Mike Robbins to this group. He works for the (US or UK?) government and lives in New York.
Mike Robbins is the author of two books of travel memoirs, three books of fiction, and a scientific book on climate change. He has been a journalist, traveller, development worker and climate-change researcher.
You might wish to check out his author page:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
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Thanks, Lilo. Sure give him an invite, though it's not a very exciting group.
