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What controls the wind?
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I think a better question would be: What is the wind's agenda?The wind is an enity in and of itself why should it be controlled by another? Even when Naming is being used (and it still is not clarified whether what we witness as naming is naming or actually shaping but lets leave that for the moment) it is arguable that it is of the Yllish sock variety of relationship.
Thats the q I would be tempted to ask if I can manage to get to go to a signing thingy when Rothfuss visits UK. Well..If I didn't expect him just to laugh at me. Hmmmmm.
Also worth noting the relationship between wind and the Waystone.
Mod
They are invisible, which gives them potential to immitate the wind.
They are also made up of (basically) ascended Ruach, which is the hebrew word for Wind.
I haven't thought up any ideas for who/what might be the mover or shaper of events, my main consideration was the discussion of the idea that the wind itself has been, for lack of a better word, behaving. And like I said, I haven't seen it discussed anywhere, so partially, the question was also about whether anyone else had noted this oddity, or whether it's completely imagined on my part.
Mod
Pat's a big fan of Tolkein and obviously there are those who could manipulate the wind around.
I haven't necessarily seen a case were something like the wind was in and of itself possessed of a will and desires, but Pat has also said, just because he didn't write something doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Have you noticed any cases where something like Fire, or Water acted as though it may be sentient? (Like I said, I haven't noted anything on this subject myself) It would be more believable if it weren't just the wind. Though we may only witness this with the wind since obviously it pertains to the story.
Bill wrote: "I haven't thought up any ideas for who/what might be the mover or shaper of events, my main consideration was the discussion of the idea that the wind itself has been, for lack of a better word, be..."No, I've highlighted passages in both books where the wind has been significant.
There are two that immediately come to mind. The first is when Kvothe is trying to break into Ambrose's room the first time via the window (as you've already mentioned).
The other I recall is at the 'bandit' encampment when he's off on the Maer's errand (wind saves him from an arrow).
Amber wrote: "In terms of "gods" possibly nudging Kvothe in a certain direction and controlling the wind, what are your considerations that Aleph's Angels might be doing this?They are invisible, which gives th..."
Very interesting. I've honestly never considered it could be some kind of divine interference. Nice catch on the Hebrew meaning of Ruach.
Mod
It's come up around here before, but my old man is currently studying Hebrew, so it's come up a lot more often than usual at my house. LOL.
Eric wrote: "The other I recall is at the 'bandit' encampment when he's off on the Maer's errand (wind saves him from an arrow)." Ah yes, I had forgotten that one.
The other question for people who are on board with the idea that the wind is being used to influence and protect Kvothe, is why? To parallel Tolkien, Kvothe would be chosen to carry out some task similar to Frodo and the ring. To carry the parallel even further, Kvothe's task/mission/whatever would have to be the equivalent of destroying Sauron. What would the 4 Corners equivalent of Sauron be? The Cthaeh?
Mod
Iax maybe? We haven't seen him but Felurian seems nervous about him.
Who knows if Selitos is still alive and what side he's on.
Maybe it's Haliax, but the more I read the more I doubt it.
I can't help but think it will have something to do with being the Lackless Heir.
Mod
I always just thought he was sort've an asshole. So that would please me. LOL!
There is also the link with Heart,the sword tree, the Lethani, Aethe & Rethe and the ribbon. The Hall of Winds in the Uni. Chasing the wind.The winds associations/actions seem to be very much guiding towards enlightenment.
I feel that trying to draw immediate parallels between KKC and other texts is a mis step. We may notice similarities but that does not equate to an inevitable conclusion.
Ashley wrote: "There is also the link with Heart,the sword tree, the Lethani, Aethe & Rethe and the ribbon. The Hall of Winds in the Uni. Chasing the wind.The winds associations/actions seem to be very much gui..."
I will provide some specific support to the comparison to Tolkien:
*Note, I pulled this from a Tolkien forum.
"Their direct involvement in a militaristic sense created a strong reaction from the forces of evil, ultimately wrecking havoc with the land and its inhabitants. Beleriand sank. The dwarven stronghold in the Blue Mountains collapsed. It reminds me of the Cold War. The U.S. would enter a country to "help", and the Soviets would show up, militarizing the whole area and causing rifts that last into today (same process happened vice-versa).
I think the Valar started using indirect means, call it soft power, to influence events. Fate, luck and chance. Or was it? Gandalf hinted at this somewhat - was it mere luck that helped Bilbo survive his adventure and find the Ring? Was is just fate that said the Frodo was "meant" to inherit it?
Or more concretely did the Eagles just happen to show up at just the right time to tip the scales in the Battle of the Five Armies and the Battle before the Morannon? The clouds and birds (Manwe's domain) move at just the right time to tip off Bilbo about the secret door? The thrush just happens to overhear Smaug's weakness and relays it to Bard..."
Fate, luck, and chance. These are things that crop up quite frequently in Kvothe's life. In Middle-Earth, fate, luck, and chance (w/r/t to the ring-bearer and Gandalf) were the result of the Valar subtly influencing the world.
Now, for Kvothe, we've already examined how the wind has saved his life. We'll call it fate. How about luck and chance? Well, I would argue that finding Denna in Trebon was an extreme example of luck.
What are the odds that he would A) overhear the story, B) the day after the wedding party was killed, C) find the one horse capable of making the journey and D) discover that Denna was there?
I'm not saying it's impossible, but the whole Trebon passage has always been a sore spot with me specifically because of the statistical unlikelihood of Kvothe making it there in time and then also finding that Denna is also there.
Mod
I agree with this. As much as I like to draw comparisons from other media it's all just in fun. You can't build much of anything from it. Though I do like this thought, I do think that all these comparisons really only benefit us in way of reading comprehension.
What are the odds that he would A) overhear the story, B) the day after the wedding party was killed, C) find the one horse capable of making the journey and D) discover that Denna was there?
I'm not saying it's impossible, but the whole Trebon passage has always been a sore spot with me specifically because of the statistical unlikelihood of Kvothe making it there in time and then also finding that Denna is also there.
As much as I like this thread, I'm not sure the wind is going to "fix" this sore spot for you. You seem to have this stumbling block a lot with KKC. As much as I think realism should be applied to all writing so that readers can relate to it. I'm not sure we should expect statistical probability to play out. Its a fantasy, not a nonfiction. If things were working out exactly like they did in the real world, there would be no point in reading.
I agree that some things with the wind seem a bit in line with what you are discussing, I just don't expect it to have a huge impact on this particular story otherwise it would likely be more obvious.
Mod
I didn't really remember the incident on the roof clearly, so I took a look at it...
The window swung open, and I scrambled backward over the sash and onto the roof as something struck the door again and I heard the sharp crack of splintering wood. I still could have made it away safely, but when I set my right foot down on the roof, I felt a clay tile crack under my weight. As my foot slid, I grabbed the windowsill with both hands to steady myself.
Then the wind gusted, catching the open window and flinging it toward my head. I brought up my arm to protect my face, and it struck my elbow instead, smashing one of the small panes of glass. The impact pushed me sideways onto my right foot, which slid the rest of the way out from underneath me.
Then, since all my other options seemed to be exhausted, I decided it would be best if I fell off the roof.
The wind might kind of save him from getting caught, but it also causes him to fall. This in no way diminishes the legitimacy of the other examples. It just seems, at first glance, to be at cross purposes with the aid hypothesis
Amber wrote: "As much as I like to draw comparisons from other media it's all just in fun. You can't build much of anything from it. Though I do like this thought, I do think that all these comparisons really only benefit us in way of reading comprehension."
The bit from the Tolkien forum is pretty interesting. To be honest, I can't fault speculation about one text motivating a line of inquiry about another. If the shoe fits and all. I've found a couple that do and closet-full that don't.
I think the real test for this is finding a worthy or worthwhile manipulator. In one sense, it's notable just as a thematic element winding through the story. You might expect names, wind, wisdom, and fear (and doors and stone?) to play a significant role regardless. And they do.
The coincidences, or luck and chance, seem, at the moment, more like story that manipulated events. So many things have to happen in a particular way to get to the end of The Wise Man's Fear that any or all of them could be considered suspect looking at it that way.
Examining the action of the wind, specifically, and even noting all the wind related names and whatnot, could provide some interesting insights, though.
Amber wrote: "As much as I like this thread, I'm not sure the wind is going to "fix" this sore spot for you. You seem to have this stumbling block a lot with KKC."Well there is a very good reason for that. One of the things Kvothe tells Bast is that his life isn't a story. He isn't some hero who's going to go out and smoke the Chandrian. As a reader who happens to be reading that story, I'm like "Ok, I'm on board with that." We've established a conceit here, that Kvothe's life isn't going to play out like a story. And I'm ok with that. Up to the point where things start getting contrived and his life *does* start playing out like a story. I mean, there are things that happen that really, really, interfere with my suspension of disbelief.
1. On the first night Kvothe enters the Eolian, he decides to play a song that requires a female partner....without a partner. It requires someone who is familiar with the song and who is also an excellent singer. He decides to do the song anyway, and lo and behold, who should help him but Denna? Crazy, crazy, unlikely.
2. Trebon stuff, has been noted elsewhere.
3. Meets Denna yet again halfway across the country. Again, statistically unlikely. I would carefully ask anyone the last time that they traveled a few hundred miles away and ran into, not just someone you know, but the very love of your life. Kvothe seems to do this frequently.
And finally, without the claim that his life doesn't play out like a story, I'd be fine with that. But he does say that his life isn't a story. So then it becomes a problem.
Thistlepong, the quote I was referring to was this: "The wind saved me. It gusted as I teetered on the edge of the roof, giving me just enough of a push that I could regain my balance."
There is also a passage a bit earlier where Kvothe considers taking an alternative route to Ambrose's rooms, and a gust of wind causes him to change his mind.
Regardless, I'm like 80% certain the wind is influencing/protecting Kvothe for some reason, but again, to parallel Tolkien, we may never find out the "who" until the universe is fleshed out a bit more.
It seems most of these coincidences relate to Denna. Perhaps it isn't the wind we should looking at as suspect? Is it possible these meetings are more than mere happenstance?I don't have any theories yet. The thought just now occurred to me. Let me think in it.
Bill wrote: "First, I haven't seen this posted anywhere on the internets, so if it's not new to you, it's still new to me.First, the background. The wind acts *extremely* strangely in a couple places in the b..."
I noticed that too and wondered about the line in Bast's lullaby, "And the wind will have its way"
Mod
Thanks! Now it's just all kinds of complicated in my head, though; especially if he was guided to the window. Iff the wind is agent or implement, did Kvothe miss whatever purpose it had for him in there?
Tolkien, being all finished save for the sort of supplementary material that's trickling out, has a pretty good framework for that kind of speculation.
Mod
That would NOT be a story, and who would read it?
Chris wrote: "I think the whole 'my life isn't a story' just refers to all his tragic events. As you've said, it is a good story. If it wasn't, he would never learn the name of the wind or see Denna again or fin..."Here is the passage I was referring to: "Think of all the stories you've heard, Bast. You have a young boy, the hero. His parents are killed. He sets out for vengeance. What happens next?"
Bast hesitated, his expression puzzled. Chronicler answered the question instead. "He find hep. A clever talking squirrel. An old drunken swordsman. A mad hermit in the woods. That sort of thing."
Kvothe nodded. "Exactly! He finds the mad hermit in the woods, proves himself worthy, and learns the names of all things, Just like Taborlin the Great. Then with these powerful magics at his beck and call, what does he do?"
Chronicler shrugged. "He finds the villains and kills them."
"Of course," Kvothe said grandly. "Clean, quick, and easy as lying. We know how it ends practically before it starts. That's why stories appeal to us. They give us the clarity and simplicity our real lives lack."
Kvothe leaned forward forward. "If this were some tavern tale, all half-truth and senseless adventure, I would tell you how my time at the University was spent with a purity of dedication. I would learn the ever-changing name of the wind, ride out, and gain my revenge against the Chandrian." Kvothe snapped his fingers sharply. "Simple as that."
"But while that might make for an entertaining story, it would not be the truth."
So, when I read this part of the book, I was on board with it. However, what we've seen of Kvothe's biography actually does contain some of the very same stereotypes he says it doesn't. The Trebon incident is the one that springs immediately to mind.
However, for me, if he's being nudged this way and that by external forces, it would explain a lot of the very statistically nigh-impossible events that take place.
And from Xandra in another thread:"You remind me of a willow." She said easily. "Strong, deep-rooted, and hidden. You move easily when the storm comes, but never farther than you wish."
I lifted my hands as if fending off a blow... "You seek to bend me to your will, but it will not work. Your flattery is naught to me but wind!"
She watched me for a moment, as if to make sure my tirade was complete. "Beyond all other trees," she said with a curl of a smile on her elegant mouth, "the willow moves to the wind's desire."
Definitely support for the idea, but still doesn't really offer any support for who/what might be controlling the wind. And in contrast to Middle-Earth, the 4C's don't seem to be oppressed by a Big Bad Evil Guy. So the why? question is still up in the air for me.
edit: Incidentally, reading that last passage almost makes Denna a little sinister.
I wish I could add to this, but this is by far my favorite of the recent theories. I just wish you guys posted it two weeks ago before I started the books for the 5th time, not after, lol
Mod
It seems to me that we have a better fit for big bad than we do for whatever you'd wanna call your Valar analogue. at least according to Bast, all the worst calamities in Faen and the 4C can be traced back to the Cthaeh. But is the wind for or against it?
"edit: Incidentally, reading that last passage almost makes Denna a little sinister. "
Denna as purposeful, able, and in opposition to Kvothe is actually a popular position. You're not the only one uncomfortable with the series of apparent coincidences she's involved in. Folks are fond of pointing out a passage here or there, but, y'know, if this line of inquiry implicates her thematically, that could eventually be pretty cool.
I'm still not convinced that the wind is necessarily an agent for someone, rather than having agency itself.This of course, does not rule out alliance or common purpose.
There is a figure that could be perceived as antithetical to the CTH/big bad ;) Aelph. another being who has disappeared.
Now what culture is not tehlin and has a belief in such? The Cealds. Who also have sky gods/spirits.
Elodin speaking to Kvothe in NotW:"And you're a Re'lar," he said implacably. "You called the wind and the wind listened."
I struggled with the concept. "You're saying the wind is alive?"
He made a vague gesture. "In a way. most things are alive in one way or another."
I've tried to add to this post twice, but have had my mobile freak out & lost my comments. So today, I'm going to sit @ a laptop and make sure my post makes it to u guys, hopefully 3rd time will pay for all. I also have some random thoughts to post. Any ideas on the best way to do that? Peace, xx
The wind saving Kvothe from falling reminds me of one of Megan Whalen Turner's Thief books--I think it's The King of Attolia--in which Eugenides is literally saved from falling off a roof by the gods. Like, he just hangs there suspended in midair instead of falling, because the gods have taken a direct interest in his life.Who knows, maybe the wind likes Kvothe. He does keep Naming it.
Sophie wrote: "The wind saving Kvothe from falling reminds me of one of Megan Whalen Turner's Thief books--I think it's The King of Attolia--in which Eugenides is literally saved from ..."That almost reminds me of the mists in the Mistborn trilogy. Not exactly, mind you, but I keep reflecting back on this while I read the series.
“The wind might kind of save him from getting caught, but it also causes him to fall. This in no way diminishes the legitimacy of the other examples. It just seems, at first glance, to be at cross purposes with the aid hypothesis”If one faction can aid, Kvothe via the wind, surly another can hinder. I’ve taken into consideration many of the theory’s put forward in this group. Many are plausible, some absurd. There are so many in fact, Rothfuss would have to write a 30 or 40 books to make them all fit together. So What I have focused on is what combination of theory’s fit a single cohesive narrative.
I think this could be plausible. It fits the narrative of the story, and seems a logical tactic for warring factions to undertake. Manipulate a patsy* knowingly or unknowingly to meet your own objective. Denna also falls in to this category, if I don’t miss my guess.
*noun, plural patsies. Slang. 1. a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker. 2. a person upon whom the blame for something falls ... sound like Kvothe to you?
Bill wrote: ""You remind me of a willow." She said easily. "Strong, deep-rooted, and hidden. You move easily when the storm comes, but never farther than you wish."I lifted my hands as if fending off a blow... "You seek to bend me to your will, but it will not work. Your flattery is naught to me but wind!"
She watched me for a moment, as if to make sure my tirade was complete. "Beyond all other trees," she said with a curl of a smile on her elegant mouth, "the willow moves to the wind's desire." ..."
There are so many passages like this, just keep adding logs to the raging inferno of speculation that is this series. -_- ;)
So I like what I'm seeing on here. But I'll note a few parallels I see to describe the nature of the wind from what I've seen.In the Matrix when the Oracle is talking to Neo.
The Oracle: Oh, well, not like me. But... look, see those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees, and the wind, the sunrise, and sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time.
Neo: I've never heard of them.
also, In the Eragon books, Linnëa, the spirit of the Menoa tree is kinda invisible, just doing her thing, keeping the forest alive with magic.
I feel like the wind is kind of like this. In the 4C world, the wind is an entity and normally it just does its thing. It winds. Now in our world, it can do pretty strange things at times and in certain places and sometimes it helps and other times it harms, but it's not really an intent, it's just the side effect of the wind doing it's thing.
But for namers (and yes, shapers and the like) the wind can be called upon. If you can find the right name for the right wind, it will go out of it's way and act in a certain manner. This goes back to Elodin's talk of how the wind in different places has slightly different names. Now depending on how well you can, let's say commune, with the wind, it'll do as you like or something you might not have fully intended.
This leads me to think that while the wind might be able to do as it will on it's own, the wind acts above all the other things going on in the world. It could act alone but doesn't usually bother to unless asked by name. So in the case where the wind acts to have Kvothe on and off the roof at different times, I see 3 options.
1)It was just chance that a gust, Kvothe being completely insignificant, decided to blow and one time Kvothe felt it's benefit and the other it didn't work in his favor.
2) There were 2 discreetly influential folk "close by", either observing magically or hanging out in their respective alleys and one saw Kvothe about to fall and called on the wind to help him. But then the other guy was all "oh ho ho, no way" and when he had a chance a few minutes later to act against Kvothe's clean getaway he called the wind and slam, Kvothe falls.
3) Then there's the same idea but with only one influencer hiding in the shadows. For whatever reason, they didn't have the best control over the wind that night and they called the wind to help Kvothe with a calm mind when he was off balance. But then when Kvothe was escaping, he felt the need to help with the wind again. Possibly, he saw the turnings of the wind where going to work against Kvothe or he just thought Kvothe could use a boost, but in the panicked exitement, they goofed, and Kvothe took a fall.
I always just took it as my 1st theory before as I never really read into much since the wind affects me like this often enough. But now I really like my theory 2, just because I could picture how theatrical the scene would be told by Kvothe's perspective and then seeing the big picture with the 2 guys meddling in his life. I can here him finding out with a "God's body! It's your fault I fell off that roof?"
I feel like theory 3 is less likely because I can't feel something important enough to meddle in would be unimportant enough to botch. I don't really see new, imperfect namers, equivalent to bumbling magicians failing to pull the bunny out of the hat as the audience sees it hopping off stage. But who knows.
I kinda combined pieces of other theories so they work in my head. Let me know what you think!
I thought Rothfuss explained it really well when Kvote asked Elodin about it. Once you know the true name of a thing it becomes personal, a relationship between the entity named & the one who knows the name is created. Another important aspect is how few people know multiple names.
Mod
Harlots! ;)
Chris wrote: "'Another important aspect is how few people know multiple names.'Harlots! ;)"
At the University. I think it is fairly obvious the university isn't, the deep exclusive well, of all things secret. The majority of the students don't even know what the real meanings of their own rankings are.
Elodin, Implies long ago, knowing many names was rather common. The university, is the shadow of the pillar that was.
I think I agree with Stephen. I think it is interesting how The Name of the Wind starts.
"The most obvious part was a hollow, echoing quiet, made by things that were lacking. if there had been a wind it would have sighed through the trees, set the inn's sign creaking on its hooks, and brushed the silence down the road like trailing autumn leaves."
Probably this has little to do with anything but what if the lack of wind right then had as much to do with the silence as the lack of music?
Only Rothfuss knows. I would enjoy it if the third book was out....
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First, the background. The wind acts *extremely* strangely in a couple places in the books. The two that spring immediately to mind are when Kvothe is breaking into Ambrose's rooms, starts falling, and a gust of wind helps him regain his balance.
Another time is when he's grasping for the name of Denna's patron, and the wind blows an ash leaf into his mouth, which he uses to name Denna's patron.
Another time is when he's listening to Abenthy talking to his parents about the Chandrian. The wind gusts up at specific times, preventing him from hearing the entirety of their conversations. I'd bet what he didn't hear was pretty important, and possibly life-changing.
Now, the argument is that something (some form of god, perhaps) is subtly influencing Kvothe's life via the wind. Possible reasons might include killing the Chandrian, the Amyr, or maybe removing the Ctheah.
In any case, the basis for this conjecture lies in Tolkien's works. If you know your Tolkien, you will know that the Valar do not directly meddle in the affairs of Middle-Earth. However, they do give *very* subtle nudges in the right direction (though without ever removing a persons free-will.) The main example is how Bilbo came to find the ring and pass it on to Frodo.
Not having the text in front of me, I recall Gandalf saying something to Frodo like "Bilbo was meant to find the ring and pass it to you, which means that you were also meant to bear the ring. I find that very comforting."
From the background of the Silmarillion, we can conclude that it's the Valar's will that Bilbo and Frodo bear the ring, and that the Valar are giving all the aid that they can in order to destroy the ring.
Similarly, it seems odd that the wind seems to be doing it's best to either protect Kvothe, or nudge him in the right direction, and taken all together, it's not unreasonable to assume that the wind isn't acting entirely randomly. If that's the case, who or what is controlling the wind, and why?