Ender’s Game
discussion
Reddit thread on Ender's Game being overrated
I don't know why people hate on Ender's Game so much. It is one of my favorite books. I completely disagree with the second comment on there. But yeah. I really enjoyed this book. I'm not done with the series yet but I really like it.
I enjoyed it, but it's not as great as people say.
I enjoyed the book, but I agree about it being overrated. Thanks for posting the Reddit thread.
Considering the people on that thread are criticising 1984, Brave New World and Ender's Game, I think they must have exceptionally high standards.All the complaints seemed trivial to me. If you don't like the book fine, but all the endless nit picking at the 'strategy' in the book and picking on Card's personal beliefs seemed a bit pointless to me.
I agree with One about the nit-picking thing, but I think the overall messages and themes should be in question. I had to read this book for 8th grade language arts, so we delved into deep discussions about this. Such as: Ender kills a person out of pure rage when he is a mere kindergartener. Ender kills another person when he's 8 (or is it 9 idk). Peter and Valentine (ie Locke and Demosthenes) hack into the secure internet and plan a plot to overthrow the government. Card sees fit to have a 6 year play a video game where he must stab a giant in the eye, kill all his friends, and wander the gian't corpse. Ender is forced to take on an alien civilization by his lonesome self after withstanding a year of deep clinical depression. Ender sees fit to raise the last remaining organism of a species that almost destroyed the entire Earth. Overall, just bad implications, man.
Ultimately, I couldn't fathom what Ender did in the final battle that no one else could have done.
I agree; for me at least I think it's overrated.I agree with the poster about tactics versus strategy. All Ender's training and his demonstrated abilities (which I also agree were not particularly impressive) were in tactics, and towards the end of the book he is dumped into strategic command with no other additional strategic training. There's a good reason why strategic command is dealt with by experienced officers; it takes experience to make those strategic decisions.
My other major gripe with the book, and I have many minor gripes despite it being a good enjoyable read (but no more than that), is that, if I recall correctly, Ender is meant to be a six year old at the beginning of book. However his behaviour, motivations, speech, in fact all aspects of his character were those of a child of about twelve. For me the whole thing would have been far more believable had he started with Ender at that sort of age. The 6 year old he presented us with simply could never and would never exist.
Ender is supposed to be an exceptional child, as his brother and sister were, hence the fact that he was chosen. To say that such children would never exist is a bold statement, child prodigies are not unheard of.The tactics/strategy debate doesn't really convince me. Ender wasn't the ideal candidate because he was a military genius, but because he was willing to do absolutely anything to survive/succeed. As was evidenced in the incidents where he killed to defend his own life.
Andrew wrote: "Ultimately, I couldn't fathom what Ender did in the final battle that no one else could have done."He actually tells you in the book.
I'm actually a big fan of Ender's Game. I loved the book so much I was reprimanded at work for reading it while on shift (this was years ago).I can see how it could be overhyped, sure. But when it was given to me, the only comment I received it with was, "Little kids tear each other apart in this. It's pretty cool." And from there, I read the book and formed my own opinion.
If I had handed this book to someone and said, "This is the best book you will ever read," then yes, there's bound to be some disappointment. Alas, we don't all have the same experiences with various pieces of literature. I dug the Shopaholic books, so I'm sure I can't be trusted at all.
Firstname wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Ultimately, I couldn't fathom what Ender did in the final battle that no one else could have done."He actually tells you in the book."
Please remind me, because as far as I recall the reason given didn't wash as being something only Ender could do.
It's not a bad book, and it sets up Speaker for the Dead which is by far the better book. The third book starts strong, but by the end just takes everything that might have been interesting and sweeps it under the rug.
One wrote: "Ender is supposed to be an exceptional child, as his brother and sister were, hence the fact that he was chosen. To say that such children would never exist is a bold statement, child prodigies ar..."I disagree; I'm not saying you can't have child prodigies or a child military genius. What I am saying is that they are still children. They might be incredibly gifted in some way but most, at least, will not be unusually mature to the extent of exhibiting the maturity of a child twice their age. If I read this book with all references to actual age removed I would have pegged Ender and all his peers at about 12 on first joining the Battle School.
So prodigies, fine, but an entire group of six year olds acting as mature as twelve year olds was just not believable.
Seriously go back and re-read the behaviour of the children in the Battle School thinking about their apparent age. And then compare that with any 6 year olds you happen to know.
Prodigy is not the same as maturity (I believe Mozart demostrated this quite effectively!).
Seems like I gave it 3/5 here on GR. Given that it is lower than the average score, I take it that I should think that it is overrated?It was a nice novel, for sure, but no one's considering it a classic, are they?
Marko wrote: "Seems like I gave it 3/5 here on GR. Given that it is lower than the average score, I take it that I should think that it is overrated?It was a nice novel, for sure, but no one's considering it classic, are they? "
Actually, yes, I think an awful lot of people do! Though I'm in agreement with you; it was good, it had flaws, but I enjoyed it. No more, no less.
Andrew wrote: "Firstname wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Ultimately, I couldn't fathom what Ender did in the final battle that no one else could have done."He actually tells you in the book."
Please remind me, because ..."
Not so much "could" as "would". It's the culmination of all the killing he did earlier, setting up that he would destroy someone utterly rather than just defeat them.
According to Mazer, no one would have used the final weapon against the buggers' home planet, knowing it would destroy an entire race i.e. Xenocide. Ender would and did, but he didn't consciously "know" that was what he was doing, since he thought it was all a game. His guilt over that is allegedly what motivates him to take the surviving queen to a place where she can start over. Ergo, the rest of the series.
Mike wrote: "Marko wrote: "Seems like I gave it 3/5 here on GR. Given that it is lower than the average score, I take it that I should think that it is overrated?It was a nice novel, for sure, but no one's co..."
I thought the short story was actually better.
Firstname wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Not so much "could" as "would". It's the culmination of all the killing he did earlier, setting up that he would destroy someone utterly rather than just defeat them..."That's what I mean, it just doesn't seem plausible that all these seasoned commanders are too emotional to do what needs to be done. Think of WWII, Normandy beaches, the slaughter of thousands upon thousands of people - they didn't need a desensitised child prodigy to give the order!
As for Ender not knowing, well - they could have just asked the janitor to come in and press the button
Again, I agree. I enjoyed the book but, for exactly the reason highlighted in this thread, I had to raise the bar on my suspension of disbelief higher than I would normally.They wouldn't even have needed a janitor. The computer could have simply monitored the battle and a soon as an opportunity presented itself stepped in and sent the appropriate command.
Andrew wrote: "Firstname wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Not so much "could" as "would". It's the culmination of all the killing he did earlier, setting up that he would destroy someone utterly rather than just defeat the..."I get your problem with suspending your disbelief, but that was the author's reasoning. I'm sure he would welcome your critiques, feel free to contact him with them. Asking other people to explain his vision better than he could is a fruitless exercise, but you are welcome to it.
Firstname wrote: "I get your problem with suspending your disbelief, but that was the author's reasoning. I'm sure he would welcome your critiques, feel free to contact him with them. Asking other people to explain his vision better than he could is a fruitless exercise, but you are welcome to it."Bit late to tell him, but it's nice to have the discussion on here anyway :-)
This sub-topic actually reminds me of the Milgrim experiment done in 1963: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_...
The experiment goes to show that many people will do pretty much anything they're told to!
Andrew wrote: "Firstname wrote: "I get your problem with suspending your disbelief, but that was the author's reasoning. I'm sure he would welcome your critiques, feel free to contact him with them. Asking other ..."That's an excellent point.
I have to agree with this statement 100% although the book was a decent read it is no where near the "greatest science fiction book ever written". Maybe if I read this when I was younger and had my teenage rebellion day I would have preferred this book.I read Dune when I was fifteen and I still think Dune is the best Science Fiction novel, its light years beyond this
Ugh. This is a solid book but I got the icky feeling that Osc wrote ender in his image throughout the book. the "unfallable hero against all odds" whose moral compass was always better than others was an extremely over used troupe in late 70s, and 80s and 90s fantasy and sci fi.A good book but yeah, a tad bit over rated with just a silly silly silly ending to it.
Wow, talk about over analyzing. I loved the book and the rest of the series.
Absolutely Over-rated. Good idea for a story, pity it wasn't written by a different author.
I knew a librarian that once told me it was the most stolen book from the library.
Let's be honest, people: Ender's Game is pretty close to a children's book. That doesn't mean it is a bad book, not at all. But to see adults talk about how much they LOVE Ender's game is a lot like - say - hearing adults talkl about how they LOVE Disney's "Peter Pan".
It's a fun ride. You can argue angels on the heads of pins... but in the end it is about what you, as a reader, enjoy. If you come to any book with overblown expectations, the book will disappoint. I was lucky enough to read the book a long, LONG time ago before there was a ton of hype. I like it. My husband likes it. My kids like it. It's a favorite in the house and usually read back to back with Ender's Shadow.
One person's trash is another person's gold. "Sorenconcard" judged the story's ending as "silly silly silly," whereas I thought the ending was brilliant! (I would add 2 more brilliants, but I prefer brevity. ;-) I did not see it coming at all.I had heard about Ender's Game only vaguely for who knows how many years; perhaps 20+? I was unaware of its literary status (e.g., sci-fi award winner; used in schools). I just heard it was a "good book."
When I finally "read" it (audiobook), I thoroughly enjoyed it at all levels, especially the psychology behind the characters. I'm a research psychologist who specializes in self-esteem and I found Card's motivational insights related to social dominance, narcissism/psychopathy (e.g., Peter), self-respect, shame, and guilt to be spot on. Then add to these insights a fascinating story built on the premise of genius children trained in a technologically sophisticated battle school in outer space, with sci-fi elements that were realistic & ahead of their time (e.g., the nets; the personalized, interactive computer game), and you have a great book.
For what it's worth, I don't think I would have understood the book as well if I read it before the age of 25.
Walter wrote: "One person's trash is another person's gold. "Sorenconcard" judged the story's ending as "silly silly silly," whereas I thought the ending was brilliant! (I would add 2 more brilliants, but I prefe..."Concur, Walter.
Generals seen to be very political creatures. I don't think giving the order to wipe out an entire race would be something they were comfortable with. Ender also had an understanding of the buggers only shared by Rakham. Ender used the weapon at the perfect timing and not before, he was also plausible deniability and an escape goat. "we didn't know what this monster was going to do." Ender was indeed villaified for his actions.
I love Disney's Peter Pan...I hate Ender's Game...
We cannot compare Ender's world with ours. We are building a nation of mac ’n cheese morons who graduate without being able to read, spell or do simple math. Their government had a very deliberate and long-term goal of building ruthless, genius children because the Buggers were coming. There was no time to wait. Ender and his siblings were specially "created" in the hope that one would become exceptional at a very young age and emerge an extreme hero. I've often wonder what kind of genetics Ender's parents possessed that they were singled out to breed three kids on a planet where having children is a privelege? Ender was not an accident.And yes, I know for a fact that kids can become whatever their parents and/or environment demand of them. I personally know two, one was 4 and the other 6, who when circumstances demanded it of them, delivered their older sister's baby!
Whether children are six or sixteen, there are huge ranges along the continuum of sophistication, emotional adjustment, and intellectual capacity. There is no "standard" for children any more than there is one for adults. Might as well say that Forrest Gump was too dumb, or Scarlett O'Hara was too conceited, and therefore couldn't exist either. It's a book. Anything can happen. Especially sci-fi and fantasy, that's why we read them, right? The impossible becomes possible because we "will" it to be so.
Spoiler ****************************Just to clarify, I don't think the turn at the end where Ender thinks he is playing a simulation but is actually wiping out the buggers is silly, I liked that turn, I think the part where the buggers are so saphisticared that they can figure out who ender is, figure out he would come to the planet, and figure a way to communicate that they had nothing but regret for their initial attack on the earth using nothing but playground equipment, yet couldn't figure out a way to communicate this regret any other way(Morris code works a whole lot better than a swing set) So they just decide to attack Ender's advance. I don't buy it. I think it was silly.
Sorenconard wrote: "Spoiler ****************************Just to clarify, I don't think the turn at the end where Ender thinks he is playing a simulation but is actually wiping out the buggers is silly, I liked that tu..."That is certainly your prerogative, however knowledge is not evenly spread among fields, even within one person's head. For example, it's called "Morse" not "Morris" code. If you don't know that, how do you expect alien bugs to know how to do it?
Much of the Reddit stream seems to focus on military tactics, or the lack thereof, used by the Ender, but who reads Ender and thinks it about military tactics, except the 20-year old grunt that started the thread?For a book written in the 80's, then edited in the early 90's, it seems more prophetic, with its use of game immersion, remote military operations and portable computing. Then when you think about the use of children in military games, one can think somewhat more deeply about sociopolitical indoctrination. The series itself becomes a broader exploration of empathy and foreign culture.
The criticism seems more like the problem of a man with a hammer, who thinks every problem is solved by hammering, but even worse, every problem is about hammering.
James wrote: "For a book written in the 80's, then edited in the early 90's, it seems more prophetic, with its use of game immersion, remote military operations and portable computing. Then when you think about the use of children in military games, one can think somewhat more deeply about sociopolitical indoctrination. The series itself becomes a broader exploration of empathy and foreign culture."Great points, James. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the plausibility or "accuracy" of the military strategy. What the heck do I, or 99.9% of people, know about military strategy anyway?
Sorry first name, writing and spelling is hard for me as I usually use slides, jungle gyms, and spring loaded ducks to talk
Some people commented on the suspension of disbelief, and that they could not suspend disbelief. I have at times wondered what is required for suspension to occur. With any great science fiction, suspension of disbelief is required to tolerate the seemingly impossible. For me, with Ender, it was simple, and I did not suffer from doubt about possibilities, but for me acceptance occurs in the beginning of the book, and afterwards I only question the actions of individuals, as to whether they are plausible actions given the character and setting.
Regarding military strategy:It is perhaps unusual that a hugely popular work of science fiction would be included on the Marine Corps PME Reading List. While this book is aimed at Privates through Lance Corporals and Officer Candidates/Midshipmen, more experienced Marines can get a lot out of reading it. Ender’s Game is more than about the difficulty and excitement that competition provides in preparing for combat. There are lessons in training methodology, leadership, and ethics as well. Such richness in range and treatment has made Card’s book an oft-read and reread title for many years; Ender’s Game has been a stalwart item on the Marine Corps Reading List since its inception.
Click in Ender's Game to see the text:
http://www.howtogeek.com/trivia/what-...
I agree that it is overrated. I mean, any piece of art on any 'top list' is overrated. It doesn't mean its not a great book, but there are still other great books that aren't as recognized.
Greatness can be funny. Is Ender hurt because of the hype - the movie is coming - and its popularity? Ender's rating
- 4.3 on GoodReads
- 4.6 on Amazon
- Hugo and Nebula Awards
By comparison, I took a very quick look at some 'great' books, using the opinion of Harold Bloom, the professor of humanities at Yale and NYU.
As I Lay Dying by Faulkner:
- 3.9 on Amazon
- 3.72 on GoodReads
Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy (his trilogy won the National Book Award):
- 4.1 on Amazon
- 3.9 on GoodReads
Song of Solomon by Morrison, a Nobel winner
- 4.4 on Amazon
- 3.9 on Goodreads
A Trilogy by Beckett, also a Nobel winner
- 4.5 on Amazon
- 4.3 on Goodreads
Beckett, the last is funny, one of my favorite authors, but his trilogy is at times painful and turgid.
Ender's Game is not a great book, by any stretch of the imagination. But why? The story isn't bad, and the idea was kind of interesting. Okay, the characters aren't the best, but where it falls down is when we look at Ender himself. He is, without a doubt, 'perfect'; everything is handed to him, whether he likes it or not, and he never seems to suffer any bad consequences. For example, right at the beginning of the novel, he is told that he will suffer some side effects from the surgery, but that is entirely normal. He goes back to class, experiences those side effects once, and then goes on with his life.
I was very interested to see how a young child would handle such a confused feeling of loss, but Card tossed this idea to the wayside after only glancing over it. That's not good writing.
Another thing: He hacks into the mainframe - age six - and then refuses to explain to other characters and the reader how exactly he did it. Why? To make him seem powerful and enigmatic when, in fact, he's just too talented for his own good.
And don't even get me started on his 'natural talent' when it comes to fighting. I know that Thirds are born and raised for the sole purpose of becoming soldiers, but the way he acts in battle - even practice battle - is completely ridiculous.
I had little or no sympathy for Ender... That is, until the shower scene (about 200 pages in). I truly felt for him when he was cornered by the other boys. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's one of the best fight scenes I've ever read. But that's the only time I really rooted for him and prayed that he came out on top. Every other time, I just wanted him to fall down, or at least work for some of his talent.
It's a shame, really, how poorly written Ender's character is (his very name stinks of amateur hour), because I really enjoyed the story of his siblings and their goings-on. I would have much preferred to read a novel about their relationship; they were great, true-to-life characters, and I only longed for more time with them.
But alas, we must spend our days with Ender, who is spending his days training on a simulator with his old friends for the day - that will inevitably come - when he must face the buggers (because it's his destiny or something) and... What's that? It wasn't really a simulator and he's just won without losing any friends and still being awesome? Oh... Great.
All in all, it just wasn't worth my time. I read it because a good friend of mine recommended it, and he usually has great taste in literature. Unfortunately, he seems to have been caught up in the fantastical lives of Ender and co. and lost his critic's hat.
I really wanted to enjoy Ender's Game - but I simply couldn't.
I was very interested to see how a young child would handle such a confused feeling of loss, but Card tossed this idea to the wayside after only glancing over it. That's not good writing.
Another thing: He hacks into the mainframe - age six - and then refuses to explain to other characters and the reader how exactly he did it. Why? To make him seem powerful and enigmatic when, in fact, he's just too talented for his own good.
And don't even get me started on his 'natural talent' when it comes to fighting. I know that Thirds are born and raised for the sole purpose of becoming soldiers, but the way he acts in battle - even practice battle - is completely ridiculous.
I had little or no sympathy for Ender... That is, until the shower scene (about 200 pages in). I truly felt for him when he was cornered by the other boys. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's one of the best fight scenes I've ever read. But that's the only time I really rooted for him and prayed that he came out on top. Every other time, I just wanted him to fall down, or at least work for some of his talent.
It's a shame, really, how poorly written Ender's character is (his very name stinks of amateur hour), because I really enjoyed the story of his siblings and their goings-on. I would have much preferred to read a novel about their relationship; they were great, true-to-life characters, and I only longed for more time with them.
But alas, we must spend our days with Ender, who is spending his days training on a simulator with his old friends for the day - that will inevitably come - when he must face the buggers (because it's his destiny or something) and... What's that? It wasn't really a simulator and he's just won without losing any friends and still being awesome? Oh... Great.
All in all, it just wasn't worth my time. I read it because a good friend of mine recommended it, and he usually has great taste in literature. Unfortunately, he seems to have been caught up in the fantastical lives of Ender and co. and lost his critic's hat.
I really wanted to enjoy Ender's Game - but I simply couldn't.
I don't agree with all of, but I thank you for your thought out post Natalie.
If this is a dedicated thread for readers to TRASH Ender, I'm OK with that. Ender's OK with it too. He and Petra and Bean and even that Orson Scott Card character say: "GO FOR IT!"The books ENDER'S GAME and ENDER'S SHADOW have given me hundreds of hours of reading & re-reading pleasure. If that makes me a misguided Bad Guy, so be it; trash me too while you're at it.
@hg47
My humble contribution - the book is worth reading since its idea is original, but I won't be reading it a second time. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to a friend though - is hasn't left such a lasting impression. I am sure it is marked as a "going to read" by the fans of the genre.
Though a great book, it does pander a little.
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