The Thomas Mann Group discussion
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Buddenbrooks
Buddenbrooks Discussion Threads
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Week 1 - Buddenbrooks: May 13 - 19. Until Part III, chapter 4.
Lobstergirl wrote: "Arranged marriages vs. marriages of love/passion are quite an interesting topic in literature. Recall that Tony's father first married for love and passion and he recorded in the diary that it had..."Arranged marriages are still the norm in Asia,esp. in the subcontinent- India,Pakistan etc. Both kinds of marriages have their plus & minus points- ultimately a relationship is what you make of it.
Lobstergirl wrote: "It's also interesting to look at TM's own marriage, since we're discussing Tony's. Not that they're necessarily similar. TM was bisexual, although he was primarily (perhaps almost exclusively) at..."You know,I was looking at pics of Australian writer Patrick White- he kind of resembles Mann & he was also gay,openly so.
And Lobstergirl trust me,the wife always knows!
It occurred to me that for Tony's father, marriage-for-love might seem like a dangerous thing. After all, his own father married for love the first time, and ended up thinking of his eldest son as a murderer because his wife died during Gotthold's birth. It seems that the father's second marriage (as well as the consul's own marriage) -- even though they may have been more for convenience -- left the family as a whole in a more even-keeled place than had the stormy emotion of the elder Johann's first marriage. Though granted, from a personal perspective, the elder Johann refers to his years with his first wife as the happiest of his life.Judging from the rest of what we've seen of the consul's character, I would guess that his perspective regarding Tony's marriage is motivated by wealth, status, and what will grow his business more than by the outcomes of his father's life. But still interesting to note.
I remember an early chapter commenting that Thomas had his father's looks and Christian had his grandfather's. Was Tony's appearance linked to anyone else's in the family? I get the sense that those links in appearance were also pointing to linked character traits.
It occurs to me with all this criticism of arranged marriages by parents more interested in financial attributes than a love match, we are reading about a time when there was no option for the destitute but the mercy of family. Maybe that's why the character of Klothilde crops up from time to time, to show us what is in store for poor relations.
@ Beth: Tony resembled her mother,I think. And Christian,though inheriting the Elder Johann's looks,is more akin in temperament to his mother's side of the family- love of theatre,careless attitude etc.@ Diane: Klothilde kind of reminded me of Dickens' characters- we had a lot of those poor relations in Bleak House!
Not all old practices are bad though– I'm thinking of the gold-edged notebook in the brown secretary–What a beautiful record of a family's history! The geneology,bio & instructions from various ancestors of the family– it's like a treasure trove of down memory lane. Reading it,I wondered what e-living is doing to our lives- to save mails & pics on the hard disk & then to make more secure copies- somehow they lack the charm of those b& w photos & the faded writing! Life now has become a tussle between nostalgia & neophilia. (P.60-62)
I'm not sure what to think of Klothilde until now, she seems a latent character that might suddenly take the stage later and possibly do a bad thing...I've found interesting the crossed-connection between the members of the family: the consul and his mother, the old man Buddenbrook and his daughter in law. It seems of importance and I wonder if there will be more of such correspondences later on.
I also think that the consul has a dual character, he fluctuates between his feelings as a human being and the cool-headed interests of a businessman. Until now, the latter has prevailed, as the family firm seems to be of utmost importance.
I wonder if the situation with his step-brother Gotthold is really settled... Was it just a way for Mann to shape Jean Buddenbrook's character or will there be more of it later? It just seems unfinished for me.
Diane wrote: "It occurs to me with all this criticism of arranged marriages by parents more interested in financial attributes than a love match, we are reading about a time when there was no option for the dest..."Diane, I think exactly the same. Arranged marriage seems to be the only option to create one own's household, the other option becoming a spinster and living from some kind of "family charity". Mann talks rarely about Tilda but when he does he seems to ensure that hers is a settled destiny.
And I feel that the overall tone in the story is to keep the firm together, personal feelings or preferences come as secondary.
The family and the firm become the same thing.
A family should be united, Father. It must keep together. A house divided against itself will fall. p. 38
Mod
Mala, yes, that family book is a treasure. And I keep thinking that the novel we are reading is the "other book" that runs almost parallel to the official one, but giving us a slightly different version.
We have not discussed yet the role of the narrator....
Kal wrote: "We have not discussed yet the role of the narrator.... "Well,bring it on! My feeling is that it's perhaps the last remaining descendent,looking back on the family history or the convenient omniscient narration. Veterans drop some hints!
Mala wrote: "Kal wrote: "We have not discussed yet the role of the narrator.... "Well,bring it on! My feeling is that it's perhaps the last remaining descendent,looking back on the family history or the conve..."
Might be Mala! But I'm not so sure he is part of the family, because he also seems kind of detached and objective, or at least gives an impartial view, but I'd definitely agree that he has knowledge of future events.
I don't know. The family chronicle to me seems a little ominus. The sense that the family must be on an always upwards trajectory and measuring yourself against the prosperity of very different times and traditions could be misleading or a burden and therefore dangerous.
@ Dolors: That's right.@ Jan-Matt: ??? Come again.
Mala, I think the Family Chronicle is an ominous presence, particularly considering the title 'decline of a family'.
How's then a family to know of its history? Just see how rootless young ppl are these days- ask them abt their great-grandparents & they probably won't even remember their names,forget extended families of first & second cousins. Someone said that a person is truly dead when nobody remembers them. In India we have a a fortnight marked for remembrance of ancestors. If I'm not mistaken the pagan root of All Saints Day is also some thing like that!?And you Jan,a history aficionado saying this! I'm surprised.
I don't think their family traditional history is good or bad in itself, but I suspect their relationship to it or to their idea of their family and what they think it should be about - always progress, always doing well - is going to be a problem.(and the likely way that the growth to prosperity is probably going to contrasted with the decline we will be reading).
Dolors wrote: "Diane wrote: "It occurs to me with all this criticism of arranged marriages by parents more interested in financial attributes than a love match, we are reading about a time when there was no optio..."But for me, one's personal feelings and one's happiness should not supersede the family's and the firm's fortunes and legacy. And also, if one denies a person his/her happiness, his/her soul, it will come back to haunt, to negate, to punish.
Jan-Maat wrote: "I don't know. The family chronicle to me seems a little ominus. The sense that the family must be on an always upwards trajectory and measuring yourself against the prosperity of very different t..."I would agree with that!! It is almost an admonition to the family to do the supposed "right thing" to follow the dictates of the family (even if they are completely anathema to your soul, your being). The family chronicle is almost like a Bible, a record, but also a strict and rather dictatorial manifest of acceptable behaviour (one to admonish any family member who might consider rebelling or simply trying something else).
Frankly, and also due to my own personal experience, I find the Buddenbrooks as a family not only repugnant but extremely and nastily dictatorial. Most of the family members (especially the elders) are not at all deserving of respect or praise, but only criticism. Families can be important and can be a source of help and understanding, but they (especially if they are well-known, influential, wealthy, bourgeois) can also be and are often also a source of emotional abuse, of families dictating to their children, of children being forced into marriages of conveniences, of being rejected because of their ideas, their philosophy, their choice of friends etc. etc.
Mod
My reading is not so negative.
Mod
For some people the family's happiness can become also part of one's happiness.
Kalliope wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "I don't know. The family chronicle to me seems a little ominus. The sense that the family must be on an always upwards trajectory and measuring yourself against t..."I think a lot of it is one's own personal experience. When I read the book at university (when I did not have as many issues with my own family), my reading of the book and my feeling for the family was a lot more positive, but now it is much more negative.
And I can understand those people who see their family's happiness as part of their happiness (I would as well, if my family also considered my own happiness etc. as important as the family, but since they don't, I have changed my mind somewhat, oh I feel guilty, but hey).
Mod
Well, so far, I don't see the Buddenbrooks family as particularly horrible. They appear as representatives of a well-to-do family from the merchant class in mid nineteenth century in Europe. Many of of the family expectations, values and way of seeing things may prove somewhat oppressive to some of its members at some points but also the source of a great deal of security,--economic and emotional--, and sense of pride.
I agree with Jan-Maat in that we will probably see how the family changes with the times, and how the way its various members relate to it, also changes.
Kalliope wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "I don't know. The family chronicle to me seems a little ominus. The sense that the family must be on an always upwards trajectory..."Part of my problem is that I have read the book before and I definitely have a much more negative view of the family now than the first time I read the book (and I stand by that personal feeling, reading literature is also about how one personally feels when reading or upon reading and my negative feelings about the Buddenbrooks are, in my opinion, as valid as the feelings of those who do not consider the family as problematic as I do).
I would personally be rather surprised if Mann's idea in this novel were to portray a family which was unusually "bad" or dysfunctional or whatever negative attribute you might want to assign to them.If that was his intent, then it would be a story of very limited interest to me.
Mod
BTW, I'm not arguing for a return of arranged marriages, but I do think that higher expectations for love and intimacy between spouses did put much more pressure on marriages.
I don't have the history background of many of you, but I see the Buddenbrooks as a family of its time, for good or ill to its various members. For the women, that means usually following many dictates of the family as has been done throughout much of history. Of course I want Tony to fight for her own wishes but part of me expects family to win out. (I haven't read the book before)
Jan-Maat wrote: "I don't think their family traditional history is good or bad in itself, but I suspect their relationship to it or to their idea of their family and what they think it should be about - always prog..."I'm ahead in my reading & I completetly get your point now. Fellow readers will have plenty to say in next week's discussions!
Mod
And the report from one of the agencies of the United Nations on marrying girls, today.
http://www.unfpa.org/public/home/publ...
I just started reading this (Better World Books ships slowly, apparently...)What immediately struck me is the amount of physical description here. I'm not used to this; in fact, if it weren't for this reading group, I would go out of my way to avoid writing like this:
"Through a glass door, opposite the windows, a columned hallway was visible in the semidarkness, and to the left of someone entering the room were wide folding doors that opened onto the dining room. To the right, however, a crackling fire could be seen through the ornate wrought-iron door of the stove, which was set back in a semicircular niche."
I kept thinking "I don't care!!!" haha. It's overly descriptive and overly written (what fire isn't crackling? unnecessary modifier!).
On the other hand, I know it's just the very beginning, so I'll try to stick with it and see if it gets more bearable, or if the plot takes off maybe I'll stop noticing how boring the descriptions are.
What's boring to some is entrancing to others. I've always liked well-done physical description, or "setting" I suppose you could call it. Sometimes I get a bit put off by descriptions of clothing, on the other hand.
Yeah, I chose a description of the architecture, but the same applies (for me) towards clothing. There has been a lot of both in what I've read so far. Again, I just started, so this isn't a complaint, just a reaction.
I second Kalliope regarding the characters. They don't appear particularly repugnant or disgusting to me so far, just members of a well-to-do merchant family who take decisions thinking on the firm as a family business. To preserve the firm is to bolster their family name, even the children seem to have this idea engraved in themselves.And it seems to me that Mann is presenting the whole story with a very impartial voice, the narrator doesn't judge, he just present the facts. And in my case, this highly reliable tone creates a deeper sense of foreboding which keeps me swallowing chapter after chapter...
Jimmy wrote: "Yeah, I chose a description of the architecture, but the same applies (for me) towards clothing. There has been a lot of both in what I've read so far. Again, I just started, so this isn't a compla..."That was my initial reaction too– too descriptive prose- but it got better from Part 2 onwards- the story took over.
And fire is sometimes simmering/ashen/dead etc so 'crackling' is ok :-)
Jimmy, an amount of descriptive passages is mandatory in a well-written novel, in order for the reader to get a sense of the surroundings and of the people's tastes in clothing, furniture, decoration and so on. It is an insight into their way of living, which ultimately speaks of their personalities. I've come across writing which was the epitome of boredom, so I can say that Mann's descriptions are not boring or redundant. At least these passages of which you speak of are short, so it can't be such a chore to read them! If you have more patience, I hope you'll get to appreciate the novel as it is.
But Thomas Mann is known for being very, very descriptive. Some people love this about his work and some people despise this about his work. I generally enjoy the descriptiveness, but I also have to be in the mood for it (and while I generally enjoy Thomas Mann's descriptiveness in Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family, it tends to rather bore me in The Magic Mountain, mostly because I find the subject matter of the former more interesting than the subject matter of the latter).
Mod
I was nervous before starting the book but i'm loving it. Generally, I don't care for descriptive passages but I find it's helping me acclimate to the time and place.So far, the family seems an ordinary, prosperous somewhat pompous and proud. It seems we see them at their ripest moment-not surprising they are soon to decline. They are a symbol of an age. In order to remain successful, they would need a flexibility they don't seem to have. (Of course, the subtitle gives us warning they don't have!)
The discussion here has been interesting and helpful.
I love good physical description, including descriptions of clothing. There was also a lot in Turgenev's Sportsman's Sketches which I just read (he told you pretty much what every character was wearing, and he introduced a lot of different characters). In a realistic novel, physical description acts as a proxy for historical accuracy. It also tells you the wearer's social class, and sometimes indicates personality traits too.
Generally I don't care for much physical description, but that's because few authors know how to do it well. It's not easy. Mann chose to highlight the items in a room and on a person that have actual bearing on the story. He painted this picture through the description that really set the stage for how the reader is to view these characters.Though I'm not one for description, Mann did it so expertly that so far it is my favorite element of this novel.
Does anyone know what the word "courant" following money amounts means? As in "80,000 thalers courant.". The word is always in italics.
Diane wrote: "Does anyone know what the word "courant" following money amounts means? As in "80,000 thalers courant.". The word is always in italics."Not sure but it likely means something like what is physically there to be spent (like actual money, not speculative investments)
Diane wrote: "Does anyone know what the word "courant" following money amounts means? As in "80,000 thalers courant.". The word is always in italics."This is what I found on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_r...
I assume the italics were because it was a foreign word, but I did find its constant use distracting.
Mod
Not sure but it likely means something like what is physically there to be spent (like actual money, not speculative investments) ."
That's what I found too, Gundula -- money where the value of the actual metal is equal to the coin's denomination-- Kurantmünze, alt: Courantmün(t)ze. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurantm%...
I'm another who is enjoying the physical descriptions for the most part. they definitely give a sense of status, setting for activity and also allow some humor on occasion with Mann's physical descriptions of men, in particular (i.e. facial hair, moles, wigs, posture, etc.).
Kris wrote: "That's what I found too, Gundula -- money where the value of the actual metal is equal to the coin's denomination-- Kurantmünze, alt: Courantmün(t)ze. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurantm%... ..."It's presumably from the same root as the English word "currency", which comes from the Middle English "curraunt", meaning "in circulation".
Mod
On descriptions.
I have actually found that there was not a lot of descriptions. This novel seems to follow the realist/naturalist tradition, so I expected lengthier ones. The plot advances very swiftly. I also agree that the descriptions,--of places and people--, are necessary for understanding some aspects of the changes that affected the various generations of this family.
We also have to remember that in our very visual current culture, we can do away with a great deal of textual descriptions. That was not the case in late 19th - early 20th century..
Wow, lots of feedback/opinions on the descriptions! I guess my point isn't that descriptions themselves are bad... just that I'm not used to so much of it. Like, when I read Proust or Flaubert, the description is buried inside sentences that do other things as well, action or poetry or humor or dialog or whatnot. (I'm sure there are exceptions even in those authors). Especially with Flaubert, he seems to give very little description, but just enough for me to see everything more vividly than if he gave paragraphs of it. Here, I found it to be the opposite. Instead of descriptions hidden in sentences that did other stuff... the sentences themselves served the purpose of description only. And he stacks them one on top of another so that I can't really digest them very well. Again, it's just an observation/inital reaction, and something I'll have to get used to. I'm not trying to say that this is across-the-board bad or anything.
Kalliope wrote: "Sue wrote: "I'm another who is enjoying the physical descriptions for the most part. they definitely give a sense of status, setting for activity and also allow some humor on occasion with Mann's p..."I believe this novel is considered to be perhaps the first significant work in German which could be classified as a realist/naturalist novel. If this is of interest I could try to find a reference.
German writing was outside the tradition of Flaubert/Proust/Dickens etc etc. throughout most of the nineteenth century, for reasons that I'm not really conversant with.
However, the influence of Hegel and other philosophers surely has something to do with that, and helped produce a literature which was very "philosophical" in tone, concerned with "historical", "ethical", and other high-minded questions.
So with Buddenbrooks we have a break with that tradition I think, and here is Mann dragging German literature into a realistic tradition and away from German romanticism.
Mod
In that tradition we also have Theodor Fontane with his Effi Briest.
The Russian traddition also had a bearing in German literary production, but you are right Ted, because it starts later. Effi Briest is from 1895, which surprised me when I read it. It just reads like an earlier book.
I'm really enjoying this book. I think my favourite character so far is Tony. She's such a free spirit who has her own ideas and opinions. Also really enjoying the detailed descriptions.
The Thomas Mann Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Thomas Mann: A Biography (other topics)Effi Briest (other topics)
Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family (other topics)
The Magic Mountain (other topics)
Pride and Prejudice (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Ronald Hayman (other topics)Golo Mann (other topics)
Yes, that was a nice narrative detail. The narrative is not quite done with this frenemy, either."
Oh,I loved that whole section cause I kind of identified with that... I do hope Tony gets her own back for those scratches on her pretty face!