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Buddenbrooks
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Week 1 - Buddenbrooks: May 13 - 19. Until Part III, chapter 4.
Has anyone shared this before?Lübeck - Buddenbrook House
"Thomas Mann was born into a rich merchant family in Lübeck. He grew up in this house, which was built in 1758. His novel "Buddenbrooks," for which he received a Nobel Prize, was based on his own family to a considerable extent. The house is now a museum."
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The late Baroque (Rococo) facade of Buddenbrookhaus dates from 1758. The inscription above the portal gives this date and the additional words:
"DOMINUS PROVIDEBIT" =
"The LORD will provide."
Genesis 22:8
This Bible word in its original context was spoken to Abraham. It indicated that God Himself would provide the sacrifice for the sins - His own Son, Jesus Christ (see 1 Peter 1:18-21)
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Views from inside: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafaelis...
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Mod
Thanks so much Reem. I am imagining slightly larger rooms with a table full of all the food and serving pieces as described.
The house was badly bombed in WWII; not much more than the front facade was left standing. In the bio I'm reading there's a photo of Thomas and Katia (his wife) standing in front of it. So presumably everything in these photos is a reconstruction.
Mod
I'm also interested in hearing more about everyone's take on Tony as a character so far.
Tony is an interesting one; I wonder how the father/grandfather tension will play out, as both clearly have great influence.
OK Paul's comment above brings up an interesting question: is it to be assumed that if anything happens during the course of the weeks reading, then its not a spoiler? Clearly the grandfather dies in oh, what Part 3 chapter 2 or something, so within the weeks reading. His death, and the appearance of a great number of other characters just within the weeks reading have perturbed me a bit: one of the reasons I gave up on one hundred years of solitude is because I couldn't cope with the hundreds of characters that kept popping up and disappearing continuously. I like a bit of character development, so I hope this book doesn't turn out like that. It felt to me the grandfather exited centre stage too soon.
knig wrote: "I am unable to form an opinion on the affair of the allegedly disinherited Gotthold. This bothers me because depending on the set up, Jean the consul is either an absolute cad or a reasonable perso..."My take of him is that he is someone who means well, but he is money-loving to a fault. His instinct tells him that his father would do well to give in on the Gotthold issue for the sake of family harmony but he soon changes his mind once he realises what this would mean in terms of loss of capital.
I was also very amused to read his explanations to his wife on why they shouldn't employ a man servant. It seems to me that he regarded his father's capital as his own and the payments made to his siblings as part of their rightful inheritance (or compensation for not also being given a share in the business)as expenses/losses that need to be recovered. Even the cost of his father's funeral he sees as such. To me these explanations were not indicative of a man who doesn't quite understand business, more of a man who is money-obsessed.
There is something about the teenage Tony which for me brings to mind Maggie Tulliver from The Mill on the Floss. I can't really articulate what it is about Tony which made me think of Maggie; maybe an undercurrent of rebellion or unconventionality? I'll be interested to see whether I am completely off the mark with this thought.
I really appreciate the background info that you guys are posting. It's so helpful to understand more of the historical and political setting, to know more about Mann himself, and to have a clearer mental image of the house. Thanks!I'm finding Tony to be a fascinating character. I can see certain similarities to Maggie Tulliver -- especially in her loyalty to family despite a certain lack of respect for her parents' ideas. Just as Maggie felt bound to her father (and his wishes) despite his prejudice against Philip's father, it seems that Tony is still loyal to her parents and their wishes despite feeling that they've been "taken in" by Grunlich. I was struck by her first impression of Grunlich, wondering how he knew exactly what her parents wanted to hear.
On the other hand, Tony seems much less kindhearted than Maggie Tulliver. In some ways I'm surprised at how much I like her character, considering her arrogance and sarcasm. But I do like her. (view spoiler)
I honestly don't think the well to do classes in 1835, when the action was taking place, ever married for love, whether in Germania or other parts of Western Europe. If it did happen, perhaps that was an anomaly, rather than the norm. I think Tony was expected to enter a good match in the absence of legitimate reasons, rather than feelings.
It will be interesting to see how Tony matures and progresses throughout the novel. Will her thinking go along with the new ways of society or the old? She is a privileged spoiled girl in this first section.
I haven't read a classic in awhile. Maybe it is the translation, but I've been amazed because the writing is so vivid. There's lengthy description and exposition, but it is not at all tedious. I'm at the beginning of the Part 2. A huge number of characters were introduced in Part 1. Deftly. His first novel? Wow.
Jonathan wrote: "I haven't read a classic in awhile. Maybe it is the translation, but I've been amazed because the writing is so vivid. There's lengthy description and exposition, but it is not at all tedious. I'm ..."Jonathan, I totally agree! The writing is also so fluid, though I know translation is involved but certainly the original has to have been also. I have to admit I wonder how I will keep everyone straight. I think this discussion will help tremendously.
I agree with Jonathan and Sue about the writing style, I read "The Magic Mountain" some years ago and expected the same abstract and dreamy atmosphere. It has been a surprise to find such an objective narration, methodically ordered in short chapters.Regarding Tony...I have mixed feelings for her character. She seems somehow spoiled and shallow in this first section of the story, but at the same time she seems ready to fulfill "her destiny", to sacrifice her preferences in order to keep both the wealth of family and the firm together.
I wonder whether she will have an important role when she grows older, either as a counter force or as a subtly influence in this world ruled by men and tradition.
The following may be of interest. This is a quote from Buddenbrooks Family Life As the Mirror of Social Change, pp 4-5.Mann found himself reckoning with more than a family legacy in Buddenbrooks; his most complex reckoning was with Germany itself. For instance, he was acutely aware of having to debate with three figures who, for him, defined and charted the spiritual landscape of the nineteenth century ... As he wrote in his 1918 essay Reflections of an Unpolitical Man, "The three names that I find myself invoking when I ask what the bases of my artistic and spiritual education are, and these names are a trinity of eternally linked spirits, a constellation that appears in German skies, but they describe not only profoundly German but also European events, are Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Wagner." At the time of writing Buddenbrooks, Mann's knowledge of Wagner and Nietzsche was much more profound than his familiarity with Schopenhauer. Essentially he knew Schopenhauer as filtered through Wagner and Nietzsche. But his own reading of Schopenhauer coincided with that stage of the novel's composition when he needed to find a moment of spiritual crisis and revelation for Thomas Buddenbrook.When and how that moment comes we do not know yet.
Mod
I agree with your understanding of what was expected of marriage amongst the European bourgeoisie and Tony knows it and in principle accepts it.
I just wanted to point out that by the end of this weeks reading ten years have passed and we are at around 1845.
Mod
Are there links between Julia and Tony?
Lobstergirl is reading Mann's bio. Anything in there about this?
Even the last name of Tony's so-called suitor, Grünlich (Greenish) shows that this man is slimy and not to be trusted (but while Tony seems to realise this, her parents, but especially her father, do not).
I found it interesting that Thomas Mann has dedicated the thirs section to his sister Julia.Are there links between Julia and Tony?
Lobstergirl is reading Mann's bio. Anything in there about this?
According to the Hayman bio: Tony is closely modeled on TM's aunt, Elisabeth. TM asked his sister Julia to do research on Elisabeth, which she did, and TM also dealt with Elisabeth directly and she answered all his questions. He did deviate on some aspects of Elisabeth's biography in order to make it more novelistic, as well as to protect her.
On the dedication of Part Three to Julia: Julia had had a scandalous affair with a young man, who was then obliged to leave Lubeck, which convinced Julia that passion could be too dangerous. So she agreed to marry a 38 year old banker with a good income. "According to Katia Mann, [the banker] had been hesitating between Julia and her mother, who at forty-nine was closer to his age than her daughter was." Mrs. Mann asked Julia if she really loved the banker, but no one heard the answer.
"Thomas approved of the marriage, but dedicated to Julia Book Three of Buddenbrooks, in which Tony, (view spoiler)
What's this German custom of sending salt & bread on the occasion of someone moving to a new house?And this description of Thilda,captured my attention:
"She was not to be intimidated; she ate– though it might not be quite proper and they might mock her– with the instinctual appetite of a poor relative making the most of a well-laden table; she smiled indifferently and heaped her plate with good things– patient,tough,hungry and skinny." P.33
Isn't it amusing that females shd never be seen 'eating' esp. enjoying their food even if it's a little girl! In our culture,in genteel society,before going to a party,the female folks stuff themselves with food so once out there,they'll only daintily pick at their food & present a charming picture of femininity! As a foodie,I always find that hilarious.
I have a feeling this girl is going to be an important character!
In a way,the housewarming guests' setup, reminds one of Proust's social commentary of the salons but here it's at a very elementary level- prose is very descriptive. Proust would've demolished a character with a gentle aside or too!
Mann's writing has not captured me yet but it's too early to say. It's kind of like Hawthorne's– the dark forbodings,dark ancient house with the inscription on it,religious guilt...
Mod
Yes, I had noticed the name chosen for him. He also is made to wear green trousers (pea-colored/Erbsemfarbenes).
Mod
Are there links between Julia and Tony?
Lobstergirl is reading Mann's bio. Anything in there about thi..."
Thank you Lobstergirl for your answer. Very informative.
Mod
And this description of Thilda,captured my attention:
"She was not to be intimidated; she ate– ..."
Good to see you here Mala.
My take on Thilda is that she is conscious of not taking anything for granted and is conscious of having to seize opportunities as they offer themselves.
Mala wrote: "What's this German custom of sending salt & bread on the occasion of someone moving to a new house?"It is (was?) a custom in parts of Europe - a traditional welcome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_an...
Mod
Some info on the dreadful fire here:
http://www.ksfhh.de/comenius/aufsatz....
Jan-Maat wrote: "Mala wrote: "What's this German custom of sending salt & bread on the occasion of someone moving to a new house?"It is (was?) a custom in parts of Europe - a traditional welcome http://en.wikiped..."
It still is a custom. When my husband and I were doing a roundtrip through Poland our hostess served bread and salt when we crossed the Polish border.
What I like about Mann's prose is his detailed description of environment and the way people are dressed. It makes me feel part of the story. I can imagine the house in the Mengstrasse. It feels very much the same as the Plantijn-Moretus museum in Antwerp, allthough this was a much older firm.
Finally forced myself to sit down and read Buddenbrooks and Kalliope, I agree that there is a lot of yellow as well as the white and also some green.The part about Tony and Herr Grunlich was so typical of a suitor coming to look for his bride in an arranged marriage. It was just so odd to read it described so accurately in a German novel.
Kris asked about our take on Tony as a character. Well, so far, I see her as being typical of girls of her age with their dreams and aspirations of that era. I'm quite sure she will agree to marry Grunlich and will be very happy setting up her new home with the silk curtains she dreams about. I have this hunch that Grunlich is not as well off as he tries to make out.
What I did like was how the family sit and read together!
Thomas' yellow teeth I found particularly memorable!
Grunlich has a beard as yellow as a goat
Mod
Yes. And manny upper lips are mentioned.
This is funny, Gundula and King, look at the first description of Herr Grünlich:He was some two-and-thirty years old; he wore a fuzzy greenish-yellow suit with a long-skired coat, and grey worsted gloves.p. 73
Green and yellow...and a rosy face! A wart on one side of his nose...
With a description like that he can't possibly be The Prince Charming in this story, rather the witch Ursula in disguise...
I love the scene when Grünlich comes to woo Tony when she is home alone. Their interaction, the combination of aggression, tears, school-girl dreams and his persistence is so interesting to read. I was surprised at just how persistent he was given the lack of acceptance in the consul's letter and finding this relatively young girl alone.
His whole demeanor and bearing is so repulsive, and Tom and Tony both realize how false he is. Her parents were blinded by his money and success, and were willing to sacrifice their daughter to their perception of what she needs. What a horrible situation for Tony, but teen-age rebellion in 1845 was apparently not what it is today. Her need to please her father is so confusing for her.
Jan-Maat wrote: "Mala wrote: "What's this German custom of sending salt & bread on the occasion of someone moving to a new house?"It is (was?) a custom in parts of Europe - a traditional welcome http://en.wikiped..."
I have heard of this custom of salt and bread. Also, homes are blessed by a priest at a housewarming.
Diane wrote: "His whole demeanor and bearing is so repulsive, and Tom and Tony both realize how false he is. Her parents were blinded by his money and success, and were willing to sacrifice their daughter to th..."I agree Diane and now I have to read more to read what I fear is the outcome.
The narrative got very interesting once Tony started scowling! What a spirited young girl- hope nobody gets to crush her spirit. I also loved the detail abt the walk to school with that 'frenemy'!It was an astute psychological depiction of her confused mental state– it's one thing to have romantic fantasies abt marriage,with friends in the boarding house & quite another when reality stares in the face,in the horrid form of Grünlich.
I agree with another commenter that his financial position may not be as solid as he presents it to be.
Tony's parents are only taking the line that they themselves had adopted regarding their own marriage ( as consolidation of business interests/money/power),quite normal in an "arranged marriage setup" really,still,what's the hurry? Tony is pretty,from a good family– it's not like there will never be another offer,then why the desperation?
Even Austen's heroines,coming from a family of multiple sisters & precarious finances,hold out until their head & heart are in agreement. Desperation is never good.
Mala wrote: "The narrative got very interesting once Tony started scowling! What a spirited young girl- hope nobody gets to crush her spirit. I also loved the detail abt the walk to school with that 'frenemy'!..."
And in Pride and Prejudice, Eliza was at least not forced to marry her cousin (which I think will not be the case with Tony, she will have no choice with regard to Grünlich).
This whole situation also reminds me a bit of Theodor Fontane's book Effi Briest. Not only is Effi made to marry a nobleman much older than she is, her future husband is actually her own mother's erstwhile suitor (and the results of this are desperation, affairs and death).
Mala wrote: "The narrative got very interesting once Tony started scowling! What a spirited young girl- hope nobody gets to crush her spirit. I also loved the detail abt the walk to school with that 'frenemy'!..."
I agree with you Mala, Tony seems to be a wonderful creation. Not faultless, but it's lovely to watch her free spirit and I can't help routing for her. I also liked how quick she was to take the measure of Grünlich although I found the parents' denseness a little hard to believe. Arranged marriages may have been the norm, but did parents hand their daughter over to someone on the strength of superficial acquaintance? No investigation into this person's character or circumstances seems to take place here and that strikes me as odd.
Also I wonder what the custom was at the time with regard to young ladies receiving a man on their own? Should Tony even have found herself alone with Grünlich during that cringe worthy scene where she tries to refuse her proposal? Or could it have been pre arranged by her parents in attempt to sway her?
Marina wrote: "Mala wrote: "The narrative got very interesting once Tony started scowling! What a spirited young girl- hope nobody gets to crush her spirit. I also loved the detail abt the walk to school with tha..."I would not put anything past Tony's parents, especially her rather money and dynasty obsessed father.
Marina wrote: "Mala wrote: "The narrative got very interesting once Tony started scowling! What a spirited young girl- hope nobody gets to crush her spirit. I also loved the detail abt the walk to school with tha..."Marina, I thought the same about the dramatic meeting between Tony and Grünlich. It also struck me as weird but not only in terms of proper behavior but also because it would have been easy to give him a simple excuse in order not to receive him(the so much famous "I'm indisposed" used in Austen's novels for example).
And then I went on thinking that even if she didn't welcome Grünlich advances, Tony might have enjoyed being the center of so much fuss and attention. Let's hope her naiveness and vanity don't have devastating consequences...
Mala wrote: " it's not like there will never be another offer,then why the desperation?"Of course there was desperation!! Tony was a free spirit with that head toss that " was getting saucier and saucier" and a reputation that was growing that would seriously affect her finding a proper match.
"A short time later it came out that Tony- Antonie Buddenbrook- had gone for a walk beyond the town gates with a young high-school friend of her brother's, just the two of them.....The walks were forbidden. But then it was learned Mademoiselle Tony was retrieving notes from a poorly plastered-over hollow in the old tree just outside the Brung Gate, and was leaving a few notes there herself, all of them either from or addressed to that same high-school studnet. Once this came to light, it seemed imperative that she be placed under the strict supervision of a boarding school, the one run by Faulein Weichbrodt, Muhlenbrink 7." ( Mann 81)
Her parents would be concerned that once word got out, or before anything really bad could happen, they would get her married off when she still had the reputation that would attract a suitable match from a good family. I don't think at this point, it was as much about how rich the other family was, as it was about let's do this before it's too late. They of course wold not force her, but would " convince" her it was in her best interest.
"You will be introduced to the finest circles in Hamburg and would live in grand style." (Mann 102)
Regarding " the background check", it would be enough for them to know that he was a Grunlich. The name alone would satisfy them.
Mala wrote: "I also loved the detail abt the walk to school with that 'frenemy'!..."Yes, that was a nice narrative detail. The narrative is not quite done with this frenemy, either.
Arranged marriages vs. marriages of love/passion are quite an interesting topic in literature. Recall that Tony's father first married for love and passion and he recorded in the diary that it had been the happiest time of his life; then that wife died and he married Antoinette, Tony's mother, which was more a union of respect, admiration, family-building.In real life arranged marriages are just as likely (if not more likely) to be happy and long lasting. There's a member here of another group I'm in, more of a social group, with a Pakistani fellow who now lives in the West. He recently got married, an arranged marriage, and he seems delighted with it.
It's also interesting to look at TM's own marriage, since we're discussing Tony's. Not that they're necessarily similar. TM was bisexual, although he was primarily (perhaps almost exclusively) attracted to teenage boys/young men. His first love interest was in his late teens/early 20s, someone his age; that person, Paul, would also go on to marry a woman. TM had seen the wealthy Katia Pringsheim around town with her family, and after awhile he began to assiduously court her. She had several suitors, and her father wasn't crazy about the idea of her marrying a writer, but Thomas was very persistent. Often they would meet together at her house, with various family members present. At the least, her twin brother was always there as a chaperone. They also exchanged letters, and it may have been TM's letters that were more persuasive than his person. They got married and Katia immediately began having babies. TM never lost his longing for boys/young men. As a young woman, Katia had the body of a "young boy." In middle age TM had a love affair with a 17-year old boy. There's no question he liked Katia enormously, and he also seemed to be quite drawn to her family wealth and prestige. He developed physical ailments as he went through middle age, intestinal problems and the like, which certainly makes me wonder how that is connected to his denied sexuality. It's not clear to me at all, even after 2/3 of a biography, whether Katia knew about his bisexuality.
Gundula wrote: "And in Pride and Prejudice, Eliza was at least not forced to marry her cousin (which I think will not be the case with Tony, she will have no choice with regard to Grünlich)."That'll be so sad,like a self-inflicted tragedy. But then, we are reading a tragedy- the decline of a family,aren't we?
Marina wrote: "Also I wonder what the custom was at the time with regard to young ladies receiving a man on their own? Should Tony even have found herself alone with Grünlich during that cringe worthy scene where she tries to refuse her proposal? Or could it have been pre arranged by her parents in attempt to sway her? "I think there was an established custom of how young ladies would receive gentlemen callers- Always in the presence of a chaperone- Henry James' novels show that. But here I think the writer's purpose was to show that despite all her "sauciness" & sharp wits,she was still unaware of the ways of the world- hence her extremely confused & mixed response.As a character reveal, it was on the spot.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Mala wrote: " it's not like there will never be another offer,then why the desperation?"Of course there was desperation!! Tony was a free spirit with that head toss that " was getting saucier and..."
Interesting,but my reading was not exactly like that. Except for Thomas,the Consul was worried about Christian & Tony cause they are free-spirited but not to the extent that Tony's behaviour would cause such a big scandel that she wouldn't be able to find a good match again! But we'll see :-)
The Thomas Mann Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Thomas Mann: A Biography (other topics)Effi Briest (other topics)
Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family (other topics)
The Magic Mountain (other topics)
Pride and Prejudice (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Ronald Hayman (other topics)Golo Mann (other topics)
I have to admit though that I hadn't paid special attention to this aspect as I sensed the story of the Buddenbrook family floating above all the upheavals happening in Europe, I think Mann focuses on the life within the family more than on the social revolution of the time. But of course, I've only read a quarter of the book...that might change later!