3. WOODROW WILSON: A BIOGRAPHY~ CHAPTER 4 AND CHAPTER 5 (79 - 119) ~ APRIL 8th - APRIL 14th, No Spoilers, Please

[Bryan]

Great points.

I'm trying to dig deeper, which is hard to speculate with men who are long dead. The reason I brought up LBJ is that I think both men were affected by their surroundings at a certain time in their lives.

When LBJ was teaching, he saw Mexicans and African Americans who needed help, and in Wilson's case, as Princeton president, maybe he wanted to improve public high school and lower/middle class kids who could not go to college.

I'm interested in how Wilson's Princeton experience impacted him. I wonder how much it played in his change to progressivism.

[Peter]

Well, everyone is affected by their surroundings (except perhaps some sociopaths).

Johnson, as portrayed in Robert Caro's work, was driven by huge passions including one for power and one for the rights of others. He would do *anything* in service to those passions; and that anything included immoral and illegal acts (taking bribes, stuffing ballot boxes) as well as acts of greatness (teaching those Mexican kids; the civil rights act, and his "we shall overcome" echoing Martin Luther King).

I don't know nearly as much about Wilson, but, so far, I don't seem him driven by similar passions.

[Bryan]

Ah, but Cooper says Wilson lives to be a force in the world of politics. There is passion there, and right now, it is about education in this point of his life. And Wilson does have ambition.

I think their personalities were very different, though, and that sets the two men apart, too.

Don't forget to add the author photo and link when you cite:

Robert A. Caro

[Clayton]

I wonder how much effect these rich kids and all their money and privilege had on Wilson. He came from a family that was not wealthy and was from the southern states. Was there prejudice shown toward him in subtle ways that would have forced him to take the positions he did. Was he really motivated to see the Quad system extended to campus for intellectual reason or was this just his way of trying to break up cliques that he saw on campus. The rich against the less fortunate. Although he lost the fight at Princeton for the Quad system he did win the war to see this type of college atmosphere enacted in colleges all across the country. I for one would like to think he did this from a true desire to see educational advancement and not from a reaction of being vindictive towards the rich. Also his not wanting to ask for money could be part of this subtle difference that was exhibited by the rich towards Wilson. Pride of wanting to do it on his own and not needing help from others may have played a role in his distaste for asking for money. Rich people have no problems asking other rich people for money. It is hard for the poor to ask the rich for money. I think that this is alluded to in the book but can not find where it is mentioned. I worked in fund raising for years and one of our axioms was that you always found a rich man to get a less wealthy man to ask for money. Start at the top and work your way down. I hope I am making myself clear as to where I am trying to take this.

[Bryan]

Very interesting, Clayton. Thanks for the insights.

I don't get a sense of vindictiveness from Wilson, either.

[Mark]

Clayton wrote: "Also his not wanting to ask for money could be part of this subtle difference that was exhibited by the rich towards Wilson. Pride of wanting to do it on his own and not needing help from others may have played a role in his distaste for asking for money."

I have a comment on this, which will have to wait to the chapter discussion next week.

[Sherry]

Bryan wrote: "What are your thoughts on Wilson's ideas for education? You agree with the author about them being bold?"

One of the things that impresses me the most about Wilson is his ideas as an educator. The Quad system was the forerunner of the College system in universities. Now it's called a cohort, and research shows that groups of like interests that study together do better and have a more thorough grounding. The program I direct on the campus where I teach is a cohort. My students stay with each other for two years and do all their classes together. They do exponentially better than those who do their class "a la carte". I sympathize with his annoyance with social clubs on campus.

[Bryan]

Mark wrote: "Clayton wrote: "Also his not wanting to ask for money could be part of this subtle difference that was exhibited by the rich towards Wilson. Pride of wanting to do it on his own and not needing hel..."

Thanks Mark, I look forward to next week.

[Sherry]

Bryan wrote: "We also see Wilson changing his politics from the conservative Democrat to progressivism. Cooper writes,

"His affinity for strong, activist government and his permissive views about the 'ministra..."
He was strongly affected by his experience with how much power money had in making decisions, and how those who didn't have money had very little voice in decisions. And it all seemed for very selfish and frivolous reasons, like West who wanted his graduate center to be an exclusive place away from campus where he could associated with the kind of people he preferred.

[Bryan]

Sherry wrote: "Bryan wrote: "What are your thoughts on Wilson's ideas for education? You agree with the author about them being bold?"

One of the things that impresses me the most about Wilson is his ideas as a..."

Thanks, Sherry. Wilson seemed to understand the need for more disciplined studies and the interaction of students studying the same area, while being around tutors and grad students.

[Bryan]

Sherry wrote: "Bryan wrote: "We also see Wilson changing his politics from the conservative Democrat to progressivism. Cooper writes,

"His affinity for strong, activist government and his permissive views about..."

Indeed, and in the end, he understand that he could not withstand Proctor's pledge.

[Judy]

Sherry wrote:
One of the things that impresses me the most about Wilson is his ideas as a..."

Had the same thoughts, Sherry. While reading about his ideas I couldn't help but wish that the university I went to (and fled after 1 semester) would have had at least the "option" to enroll in a quad plan or a preceptor/tutorial learning situation.

One question I had while reading is what is the difference between a "college" and a "university"?

[Peter]

Bryan wrote: "Don't forget to add the author photo and link when you cite"

Huh. My post has the authorimage tag but no image showed up. Some sort of glitch? (I added the image the same way I usually do....)

[Ann D]

Interesting comments about fund raising, Clayton. I can't fault Wilson for not liking to do it. I think that would be the reaction of most people, including politicians. It was interesting that West, the big opponent in the grad school controversy, liked fund raising. I think Wilson should have compromised, but he knew that West behaved in unethical ways so that must have made it hard.

[Katy]

As I was reading, it dawned on me that this book requires some intellectual reading to understand. I have to think while I am reading, trust me I do read books that require no intellectual engagement.

[David]

Princeton is and was very clubby. However, everyone who rushes is now accepted somewhere. People who dont like that sort of atmosphere generally go elsewhere.

[David]

Harvard, William and Mary and Yale were founded by the public legislatures. And despite funding from john Harvard and Eliju Yale most of these schools funding was public. They were also founded at the earging of clerics to train ministers. I think the same was true of Princeton, that was a product of "the Great Awakening" which was esentially evangelical.

[Bryan]

Great comments all. Obama hates fundraising , too.

[Tomerobber]

Kathy wrote: "As I was reading, it dawned on me that this book requires some intellectual reading to understand. I have to think while I am reading, trust me I do read books that require no intellectual engagement."

Hi Kathy,
I read a lot of books that don't require intellectual engagement as well :-) currently have become enmeshed in so many history reads that I find that it can be MORE interesting than a lot of fiction I have read . . . history was NEVER this interesting when I was in school!

[G]

One of the reasons I am enjoying this book is because Cooper asks and answers my questions about Wilson. For example, he asks if the Princeton presidency foreshadows his US Presidency. He then gives a variety of possible answers, but in summary, Cooper says in both cases, Wilson didn't lay the ground work to insure the success of his ideas. One of his flaws was his 'lack of preparation'. This is certainly interesting in contrast to (once again) Lyndon Johnson, who, according to his biographer Robert Caro, was a master at laying foundations in the minds of others for his ideas. Wilson seems to work in his own world without considering that others are needed to succeed.

Robert A. Caro

[Bryan]

Intellectual engagement does make good history, indeed.

[Bryan]

G wrote: "One of the reasons I am enjoying this book is because Cooper asks and answers my questions about Wilson. For example, he asks if the Princeton presidency foreshadows his US Presidency. He then give..."

I agree, G. He makes these great summations that foreshadow future events just a little with those Q&As

[Bryan]

Thanks Bentley

[G]

Thanks. Fixed it.

[Bryan]

This might be helpful.

Educational Legacy of Woodrow Wilson

James Axtell

Synopsis

In The Educational Legacy of Woodrow Wilson, James Axtell brings together essays by eight leading historians and one historically minded political scientist to examine the long, formative academic phase of Wilson’s career and its connection to his relatively brief tenure in politics. Together, the essays provide a greatly revised picture of Wilson’s whole career and a deeply nuanced understanding of the evolution of his educational, political, and social philosophy and policies, the ordering of his values and priorities, and the seamless link between his academic and political lives.

The contributors shed light on Wilson’s unexpected rise to the governorship of New Jersey and the presidency, and how he prepared for elective office through his long study of government and the practice of academic politics, which he deemed no less fierce than that of Washington. In both spheres he was enormously successful, propelling a string of progressive reforms through faculty and legislative forums. Only after he was beset by health problems and events beyond his control did he fail to push his academic and postwar agendas to their logical, idealistic conclusions.

[Vincent]

Hi Folks

Since I am so far behind I decided to use a format of commenting on your interesting and informative remarks and then to add any additional thoughts I might have at the end.

Thanks for the prep and commentaries

Theresa msg 9 – just to disagree a little – Wilson did not champion an education for anyone who deserved it – just those who deserved it in his opinion and African American, to his mind, should not be at Princeton. But he did think they should be in Southern black colleges.

Mark msg 10 – about Carnegie and his libraries I do believe these charities were promptly by his being permitted to borrow a mentor’s books in his young adulthood.

Anne msg 19 – thanks for the comments and the links.

Tomerobber – msg. 29 – regarding Wilson’s racial views I agree but see here his southern upbringing by a father who left the north and. when the Civil War started, stayed in the south and that he (pg 17) “fervently embraced the cause of the south” - I find also his opposition to women’s suffrage surprising considering how he seems to value the exchange of ideas with women – or maybe just liked them as less objectionable sounding boards.

Peter msg 36 (and the other comments so far) – Mary Peck comes more and more as a consistent thread in these chapters it seems to me. Wilson’s professional opportunities for long vacations and absences also may have fostered this relationship. There was at least one mention of a dinner with Wilson and wife and Mary so maybe it was fine. Regarding Jim’s comment – msg 39 – what is Wilson’s character? Trying to dump West (pgs. 111 to 113) even to the point of sloughing him off onto Clark as president?

Bryan msg 46 – and following by Ann etc. on ambition. Frist I think that Cooper is putting more judgment into this book than I think I have normally seem in a biography – but I think, from what I have so far read, that Wilson’s ambition to succeed, coupled with his intelligence and industry (none of these negating integrity) was his driving force. I think pretty constantly in his world. His integrity is lacking a bit in dealing with some of the other staff at Princeton I think so far. Regarding his “industrial ambition” pls refer also to Cooper pg 116 Wilson’s quote “Unless I can improve something I cannot get thoroughly interested” -

Clayton – msg 55 and following – this is interesting because I have not read of any financial difficulty in Wilson’s life so far – he seemed to go to school and I have never read of any reference to any work outside the college/university environment so far except lecturing and writing. Maybe I am missing something but I think this seems to be a pretty privileged guy. I don’t think (Bryan msg. 56) he has mush to be vindictive about in this regard.

Bryan – msg 69 – interesting about fund raising – but interesting that a link to Obama is made – paralleling some of my thinking. So here we have a guy who is very close in years to the presidency and is just going to enter the elective struggle. A man, like Obama, who has never working in the private sector, (although Wilson certainly came from a more stable comfortable upbringing than Obama) - and we have a guy who doesn’t always seem to plan so well, (pg 116 para 2 – Cooper quote “ “impatience and insufficient preparation…”) which maybe led to the failures of the Treaty of Versailles – not incorporating his 14 points – and (pg 117) his lateness in taking his League of Nations to the American people for support. I hope Obama does better in the long run. I think as the 14 points etc. is from memory it should not be a spoiler.


I did find Wilson’s approaches to making Princeton a better place to get an education very interesting and commendable. It follows off his need to be effective. I think the ideas are good and eventually mostly installed and we all know how prominent Princeton is today. If he had allied himself more or been more patient he might have better succeeded – but then he might have stay at Princeton and we would not have this book to read.

I say again separately this s a Smart, Industrious, Intelligent guy who so far has faced no really difficult obstacles.

I also got the impression that Wilson wanted docile obedience from his friends and maybe colleagues. He seemed to feel that Hibben should have been almost like a lapdog in following – my comparison.

I find also his praise for Booker T. Washington who promoted slow progress in society for African- Americans an example of his southern values.

[Mark]

Vince I enjoyed reading your post.

[Bryan]

Thanks Vince. One of your comments got me thinking. Cooper kind of paint a picture that politics so far came easy. I don't think it was easy all the time.

[Ann D]

Vince,
Very interesting comments. You said, "I find also his opposition to women’s suffrage surprising considering how he seems to value the exchange of ideas with women – or maybe just liked them as less objectionable sounding boards."

I think you may have hit on something when you mentioned using women as sounding boards, rather than intellectual equals. I suppose he was just a man of his times.

You also said, "I also got the impression that Wilson wanted docile obedience from his friends and maybe colleagues." It will be interesting to see how this plays out once he becomes president.

I agree with you that this is a very readable biography and that Cooper is not afraid of making his own judgments known. I really like the book.

[Bryan]

It is good that Cooper is keeping Wilson's warts as part of the equation.

[Ann D]

Definitely.