Time Travel discussion
General Time Travel Discussion
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Time Slip vs. Time Travel (and a poll)
i havent read much Time Travel/slip books but ive seen quite a few movie's/tv programs and would say i prefer Time Travel.With Time Travel there is usually a purpose why the person wants to do it, then when they do it goes wrong.
With Time Slips i never really got into 11.22.63 or the old tv series Goodnight Sweetheart. The protagonists in both adjusted to there new era but in both it was more about romance rather than anything else.
No doubt im talking nonsense but my two bobs worth anyway.
Amy, I've used hardware & also the human mind but voted for both examples as I'm unconcerned with the mode given the storyline is plausable & well written.Anyone imposing limits limit themselves but I am a stickler for believability.
I guess it comes down to jargon, SiFi or Fantasy.
I stick to the former, but it's fanciful enough.
Write what you know.
Amy, you've caused me to surprise myself. My initial answer was "time travel." But, after I sat here and thought about it for a moment, I realized that in fact, the books and movies that I like the best are time slips, not time travel. For example, the 1632 book series and the movie The Final Countdown.I think what I enjoy so much about the time slips is the whole unexpected fish-out-of-water aspect. Purposeful time travelers may be surprised by what they find, but at least they usually had an idea of, and made some plans for, what they were getting into.
Mod
What brought about this line of questioning today was that a publisher wanted to introduce a "time slip" book to the group but wasn't sure if it was allowed since it was "time slip" rather than "time travel".
I guess those semantics just don't matter to me.
Mod
Time slip:
*more likely to be a romance
*unplanned
*unable to prepare for trip
*unexpected fish-out-of-water scenario
Time travel:
*planned
*able to prepare for trip
*traveler usually has a specific purpose in mind
Amy, here's my distinction:Fantasy using TT is where supernatural aspects come into play.
This blows it for me, as all rules are then rendered null.
SiFi using TT somehow aguments the natural world & thereby avoids the standard (normal) rules.
To slip or not to slip, that's not my question.
To suspend belief I have to believe.
Very simple from my point of view.
Good disscussion though.
Pickle wrote: 'ive seen quite a few movie's/tv programs...'Pickle, great name by the by, check out these most excellant threads & add some posts, which sends the thread to the top of the list.
All are good but my fav is the last one:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...
Mod
John, I guess they just slipped in.OK, I'm done now.
I gotta get back to tinkering on my busted machine.
What else is new?
Talk about a loop.
I enjoy both Time Travel and Time Slip, but the distinctions can overlap. For example, a traveler could be on a planned and purposeful trip, only the plan, purpose, and mode of transport are unknown to him or her at the time. (A storyline I employed in "An Extended Journey," so I really hope it qualifies!) Or a traveler could utilize a brilliant device of his own making and be totally unprepared for the trip. (Thinking our friend H.G.Wells here.) Whatever. It's all about the story.I read both SciFi and Fantasy, but suggest that TT includes numerous sub-categories and SciFi is just one, though the revered founder. And they can all be fanciful, some more than others. What's more important is that the story be credible, logical, and consistent within the reality the author has created. With that in place, we have a lot to choose from.
(Amy, please note that the Oxford Comma was used twice above. :-) It's important to at least three of us!)
Howard wrote: "John, I guess they just slipped in."Don't think that went unnoticed, Howard. You bring wisdom at all times.
Mod
You know, Paul, an Oxford comma is one of those things one rarely notices except when it's missing and sorely needed. But A+ on your usage nonetheless. :P
A time traveler going to the future, no matter whether he just slipped there or created a device to send him there intentionally, could never truly be prepared unless someone else had been to the future to tell the traveler what to expect. It's not as if you know how to dress or speak to blend in. Someone going to the past could potentially prepare, but anyone going to the future for the first time has the exact same disadvantages no matter how they get there.
I don't know about both having the same disadvantages, Amy. A purposeful time traveler generally at least knows that he is going to be time traveling. He may not know what he is gong to find when he gets there, but mentally, he is prepared for a trip to another time. He knows what happened to get him there - baring the unfortunate incidents of purposeful time travel gone awry.
Time slip "victims," on the other hand, generally have absolutely no idea what just happened to them, what might be going on, or how they got to wherever it is they are. I think they're starting off with a significant disadvantage compared to the purposeful time traveler.
Re' the offlist email you rec'd - I agree that I like 'We built a time machine and organized an expedition and here's the science and history/ future history' stories best. But only by a slim margin. A good story can be made via time slip or time travel, and can focus on sf themes or themes of romance or of alternate history.
About the only stories I'm not so keen on are the ones that emphasize the thrill-ride, the ones that are metaphysical or new-agey, or the alt. history ones that presume more knowledge of 'real' history than I have.
Ok, now I'm off to the poll...
Mod
Cheryl makes a very good point about the novels which assume the reader's interest and knowledge of local history. Historical novels of American history that is not well known worldwide but yet assumes a basic knowledge and heavily draws focus on, dont appeal to me. So I am very much with Cheryl's thought on that. Having said that, i like to learn new history within the contezt of a good story that would encourage me to learn more which many books have done for me.
Oh, and to read stories set in England, when one is expected to know all those kings over all those centuries. Do you really learn all that? At least US history is only about 2 or 3 centuries... ;)
There's times I like to dig in to a good technical exploration of Time Travel (ex. Thrice Upon a Time) just because I'm a SF geek, but Time Slip plots tend to make better stories. When characters from different times are pushed together it creates such wonderful opportunities for inner and outer turmoil (ex. 1632)
It does feel more like a semantic argument. Maybe we should stop labeling stories as "time travel" and replace it with something like "temporal displacement fiction." Nahhh. Although it is an interesting distinction to make between time travel and time slipping, I just can't imagine most of us having a terribly strong preference of one style over the other. It's whatever best serves the story."Back to the Future" uses scientific means to get Marty McFly to the past, but I think that's a good example of an unplanned, unprepared, fish-out-of-water scenario that's more typical in time-slipping stories. And it's hilarious.
I'm finally getting around to reading "The Mirror." Better late than never right?
Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Oh, and to read stories set in England, when one is expected to know all those kings over all those centuries. Do you really learn all that? At least US history is only about 2 or 3 centuries... ;)"Actually, my wife has become a casual expert on English and Scottish royals simply from Historical Fiction (including TT), not to mention all the movies depicting those eras. And she didn't focus on History in school (Biology Major) -- this is all gleaned since university. I did study History and English (way easier than Biology) but renewed interest through fiction, especially Time Travel. Up close and personal.
A presumption that readers already know the history, even of their own countries, is a big mistake, and even bigger when time travel to the past is involved. If we don't know the history, how will we know if and when events are changing? On the other hand, we don't want a formal history lecture intruding on the read. The authors I enjoy most weave the history and TT issues seamlessly into the story. It's painless and enjoyable, and we can always go to Wikipedia later if we're hungry for more. And there's no final exam!
Mod
Yes we do in our history classes! I guess it makes sense for every country to emphasise local history as it would spark the interest of the youngsters knowing these events happen where they lived. I for one, love seeing photos of Old London and its history, being born there and lived there all my life, its feels more special than learning the history of other places (which are also fascinating of course and essential knowledge in many cases).
England/Scotland history do have this quaint perception which evokes a charm but at the same time an abundance of ignorance (no that we are any less ignorant today, admittedly) but when it comes to politics, religion, and race, there was a frightening ruthlessness in those times too. This combo makes for fascinating literature and certainly a great destination for time travelling :).
Hmm... in which category would you include The Philadelphia Experiment?
The definition I got (from "Time Travel for Writers" by Paul J. Nahin) had a lot less to do with premeditation than process. It said that time Travel involved a machine of some sort--a deLorean, a blue police box, something you get into, and it moves with you in it. A time Slip, on the other hand, used mainly the power of one's mind. So SOMEWHERE IN TIME, while deliberately planned, was by his definition a time slip.PS - Great discussion!
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Good point, Amy. It's far less likely to accidentally climb into a vehicle that's heading history-ward than to accidentally think whatever brain burp throws us through the space/time continuum. Like a Freudian slip, through time .THAT makes me wonder if the prevalence of time-slip stories gained popularity after the theory of the subconscious or unconscious became popular....
Mod
Amy wrote: "Interesting distinctions you guys have pointed out ...Time slip:
*more likely to be a romance
*unplanned
*unable to prepare for trip
*unexpected fish-out-of-water scenario
Time travel:
*planned..."
Have to disagree about the distinctions between the two. I can site several time travel stories involving a time machine (or device) that involves unprepared time travellers without a purpose.
In TimeCrimes the protagonist is tricked into entering a time machine with the only purpose to get away from the killer.
Similarly in Time Bandits, I would argue that while the dwarves had a mission, Kevin did not and was jus a reluctant time traveller using the portals with the Time Bandits.
Shall I go on?
The other distinction I would have added to the Time Slip vs Time Machine/Time Travel debate would have been people that temporally displaced in time due to being frozen in time. For example Fry in Futurama or the protagonist in Heinlein's The Door Into Summer who is cryogenically frozen and awakes in the future.
Hmm. You should post more often. So, how would you discuss the issue with the person mentioned in post #5, the disappointed new member?
Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Hmm. You should post more often. So, how would you discuss the issue with the person mentioned in post #5, the disappointed new member?"I am a writer first and foremost so I don't make a big distinction about fantastical/supernatural and mechanical (e.g. Time Machines) version of Time Travel. They are all plot devices to me and depending on what you need at the time is what you are going to use. I'll have to go back and read what the complaint actually was, but personally, me I am open to both kinds and equally comfortable talking about both here in this forum.
I don't know, Andy, I still see a distinction between Time Slip and Time Travel. With respect to the two examples you cited, I might call them "time travel gone awry" or "accidental time travel" or something like that. The intended users of those time travel devices would have planned and been prepared for the trip.So maybe the flow chart has 3 main boxes, "Time Slip," "Time Travel," and "Other." Under "Time Travel," you have two boxes, "Planned" and "Unplanned." Under "Other" various boxes for things like "Temporally Displaced Through Extended Suspended Animation," and such.
So -- Quantum Leap and The Time Tunnel -- time slip or time travel?
In the definition I cling to (the one that time travel takes a vehicle and time slip uses the power of the mind), I'd probably say QUANTUM LEAP is time slip... perhaps enhanced with technological assistance. Not sure about TIME TUNNEL, though. Hmm!
I'd call Quantum Leap "time travel gone awry." The first "leap" was made purposefully using a machine, the Quantum Accelerator (I think that's what it was called). I had to google Time Tunnel because, although I did watch the show when I was a kid, I didn't recall how they traveled through time. I'd classify it as another instance of time travel gone awry. The first jump, again, was done purposefully using a time machine.
Some interesting distinctions here on the different categories of Time Travel. That's what I love about this group: exposure to these different types of Time Travel, and the thoughtful comments from the members. I didn't even know what "Time slip" was until I read down the comments here and the "Time Travel Vacation List" by time travel booking agent Amy. I voted for "* Time travel" and I generally like my science fiction HARD. But I'm starting to realize that in some of my favorite reads, time travel is incidental to the story, which may not even be science fiction, like THE WEEPING EMPRESS or last month's book THE LEGEND OF THE BLOODSTONE. As I glance through some of the Time Travel titles in my collection, I realize that I can only find ONE hard science fiction time travel book: Michael Crichton's TIMELINE. (And maybe an honorable hardness mention: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford.)
I agree with Howard when he posts: "I've used hardware & also the human mind but voted for both examples as I'm unconcerned with the mode given the storyline is plausable & well written."
I also agree with Paul [Use the Oxford Comma, my son…] when he posts: "I read both SciFi and Fantasy, but suggest that TT includes numerous sub-categories and SciFi is just one, though the revered founder. And they can all be fanciful, some more than others. What's more important is that the story be credible, logical, and consistent within the reality the author has created."
I do think that a time travel story requires an extra dash of suspension of disbelief. As a reader, we have to buy into the writer's story. Even if we are shaking our heads at the scientific explanations given -- "Oh, please. Like that's gonna happen!" -- we have to be having a good time, we have to enjoy the writing and the story.
I'm an amateur when it comes to writing Time Travel stories. I've only written one TT short story and one TT novel. The "science" in my TT short story is a joke, the most frivolous and silly explanations I could think of. The "science" in my TT novel was a cop-out: superior extraterrestrial aliens invented the technology which is mostly beyond our inferior huwoman minds to understand.
The Time Travel novel which I have re-read more than any other is Heinlein's FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, which might be a mix of timeslip & time travel. "Atomic bomb go boom" is the scientific explanation for why they traveled into the future. Later, the "Masters" sent the whites (test subjects) back into time deliberately; but not much about the "science" is in the text. (So while I vote and post that I prefer HARD Science Fiction Time Travel, I don't seem to practice what I preach.) @hg47
Mod
Thanks for mentioning Farnham's Freehold. I never heard of that one. Time travel by Atomb bomb thrust...cool, the godzilla of time travel! Will put that one up on the group bookshelf which I have severely neglected for months now...
Hm...i in part disagree..i remember that after reading Timeline i thought, 'this has no time travel in it, it is a historical fiction on knights and middle age"...
Mod
In part, I agree with your disagreement (nonsense statement isnt it, or is it?) ;) You're right about the middle age domation of the story but the science of the time travel was pretty detailed on recollection, taking into consideration the volume of space and displacement etc.
Hee--the first time I started reading TIMELINE, I quit only a chapter or so in, because it seemed to be so much science (crazy man found on road -- what's wrong with him?) Then I saw the movie, realized there was a lot more medieval stuff to it, and skipped ahead :-)
Yvonne wrote: "Hee--the first time I started reading TIMELINE, I quit only a chapter or so in, because it seemed to be so much science (crazy man found on road -- what's wrong with him?) Then I saw the movie, rea..."Hey, Yvonne!
The actual "science" in TIMELINE is the most persuasive explanation for Time Travel in any book I've read, so far. I understand your objection: "Too much science, not enough story." (I just got the same complaint about one of my own efforts at Time Travel: "Too Much Science!") Personally, and this is just me, I enjoyed the "science" more than the medieval story. The time travel machine copies the time traveler, and after too many trips (like the crazy man in the road) you are a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, and your body is a wreck that just barely functions. Cheers! @hg47 P.S. -- I also enjoy the movie, Yvonne.
I read Timeline a while back and don't remember a lot about it. Don't remember the "crazy man in the road" but that sounds a lot like the crazy guy in Stephen King's 11/22/63. Wonder if he got the idea from that book?
LOL guysYes it seems i had completely forgotten about the time travel science in it! You are right ;)
After reading through this thread, I had to admit I never really consider a difference between time travel and time slipping, but it makes sense now. Really good discussion, and makes me have to categorize my current work as minor subplot of time slipping. Glad I found this!
I enjoyed the crazy man in the road bits of Timeline as well. Crichton called them "transcription errors" and that term itself made me nod my head. I realized it was (like all his books) a very scientific approach to the issue.Time Slip, to me means actually losing time somehow more than it does accidentally traveling through time. Think about it. Time Slip, as it's defined herein still involves characters traveling through time. Whether they want to or not. But stories like The Very Slow Time Machine kind of emphasize that 'slippage'.
I don't have a preference though. Any time someone is moving up or down the timeline by whatever means, I get interested.
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Doing scientific time travel well is very challenging.
I disagree in part about the intentional nature of one vs the other. Someone could certainly design a machine to send other people through time involuntarily, and doing magic or thinking to the past could be quite intentional. Definitely up to the author.
What I most enjoy is a premise that addresses the scientific issues, instead of sweeping them under the rug, and does it well. It's tough to find sometimes, but they are out there.
I like both but tend to prefer the Time Travel. Although the fun part of "time slip" novels is how the protagonist manages to find their way back to their start time.
Nathan wrote: "Great thread so far. Personally I have always felt that the dominance of time slip vs. scientific time travel methods was largely because many writers (or movie makers) want to gloss over the time ..."Good point well taken. I like to read a well-done scientific tt book, especially when everything is written in a believable manner. I will say that I tend toward writing time-slip though, and that is one of the biggest reasons why: I don't want to mess anything up. It's a huge challenge to keep continuity throughout and make sure all the pieces fit, since tt can get so complicated. You should see the charts I have next to my computer keeping track of all the variables.
I have a preference toward "time slip". I have watched the Goodnight Sweetheart series 3 times and enjoy it every time. I also really enjoyed reading 11/22/63, The Time Traveller's Wife, the first of the Outlander series and Replay by Ken Grimwood recently.I really prefer to read about people "slipping' back into times past or not too distant into the future.
I have a little saying I use at work and home when I bang into the wall or a doorframe - "I am just looking for a time portal" and I think that thought sums up what I enjoy the most.
When I recall what I have read over the last 50 odd years, I realise I have hardly read any actual "time travel" books (read HG Wells of course), so perhaps I need to correct that.
Great thread that has opened my eyes and mind and hence more books to investigate, chase down and read.
Time Travel
Books mentioned in this topic
Lest Darkness Fall (other topics)Timeline (other topics)
11/22/63 (other topics)
1632 (other topics)
Thrice Upon A Time (other topics)
More...
Time Slip Examples:
*11/22/63 - time travel by walking down a staircase
*Outlander - time travel by walking among ancient standing stones
*The Time Traveler's Wife - genetic accidental time travel
*The Mirror - accidental time travel by mirror
Time Travel Examples:
*The Time Machine - time travel by time machine
*Back To The Future - time travel by Delorian
*Doctor Who - time time travel by TARDIS
*Time's Twisted Arrow: time travel using genetic engineering and an amulet
Some people seem to make a strong distinction about which type they prefer, especially if they have a strong like or dislike for a story with a more science-fiction bent to it. Does it matter to you? (There's a poll for this).