THE Group for Authors! discussion
This topic is about
Matt Drabble
Writer's Circle
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Getting the "right" readers to read my work
You can't. Honestly I wouldn't worry too much about it. I don't know about anyone else, but the very first thing I do when I look at a new book is click to view all the 1 and 2 star ratings. When I see stuff like this,"Ugh, I hate books about vampires..."
Or, my FAVORITE (on a John Green novel): "Was a cancer book John's story to tell?" (Was it YOURS? Then why aren't YOU telling it?!)
Anyway. A quick glance through the poor ratings will always give me a good grasp of whether or not the people who rated it thus were idiots, and I simply disregard their opinion.
You can't stop people from rating/reviewing this way, just part of the gig, I guess. :)
One thing you CAN do when you are writing to bloggers for reviews is to be sure your book is a good fit. Don't say to the blogger, "I know horror isn't really one of your categories, but mine is different!" Then, when you advertise on websites, choose carefully where to advertise. But once the book is really out in the world, I agree with AK. People will buy it if they feel like it and review it if they feel like it. You can't control everything! The more people who buy it, the more reviews you'll get, and the more bad reviews you'll get (along with the good).
Thanks guys, it's always a bit disheartening to see months of hard work slapped with a negative and ill-considered review. I've had a mad rush on my third attempt at writing a novel with almost 16,000 combined sales and free downloads since Dec 2012 and I find myself constantly checking the reviews skipping the good and only looking for the bad! 16,000 odd downloads and only around 70 reviews seems a very poor equation. I can't understand why more people don't bother to leave a review especially when they might have got it for free!!!
70 reviews for 16,000 downloads is actually very good. One of my books was downloaded around 10,000 times on Amazon when it was free, and I only got 1 review on Amazon out of that. It was rated and reviewed a little more on other websites where it was free, but if you've got 70 Amazon reviews that's great! That's really impressive, and of course you'll get some negative reviews in that. I wouldn't look at it as not enough reviews, as it seems quite a lot, especially if it's only been a few months. A lot of people will download a free book and not read it, so at least people are reading your book :)
IMHO, You should be grateful Matt. 16K sales and 70 reviews is nothing to sneeze at, with or without mistaken genre ratings.Congratulations to you, and if what you're talking about is your only kerfluffle, then fantastic!
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Now to the question in general, I have a more challenging facet as my anthology includes several distinct and differing genres (intentionally as I wrote it) within it, and it does offer me woes figuring out how to classify it. On amazon, I could only choose a few categories, so defaulted to "fantasy, short story and science fiction"
I'm in the opposite conundrum, not of discouraging "wrong" readers to find my book, but to let potential readers know there's probably something in there for them, regardless of their interests.
What I have done, is attempted to join groups that seem to help, like
"Chaos Reading" for eclectic interests, and fantasy groups because that's the best, although somewhat ill fitting category to place it under.
Matt, I would continue to do things like that, try to find groups that seem close to what you've written, and don't sweat the small stuff at this point.
Keep in mind, this comes from a new author with only 4 ratings and 15,950 less sales than you. So take it with a grain of salt. I may know exactly nothing.
:)
Thanks for your thoughts guys, always good to get views from fellow authors or fellow wannabes!
I checked, and we're all authors, FWIW. (puzzled)but anyways, you're welcome
I have downloaded hundreds of free books and then, never read them. At the time, I am interested in them, but then, newer books come out that seem even better. I am sure there are a lot of people ou there like me, who download then never read or never have enough time to read them all.
Or who download while they are free even knowing it will be months before they get around to reading.Here on goodreads, make sure your book is in desired genre(s) by shelving appropriately yourself (genre names are also sourced from a selection of shelf names; does take at least two people shelving to see "genre" instead of Top Shelves on your book's page and can be very slow for the goodreads cache to catchup once you do have the shelves).
Looks like Matt has only one of his books on his horror shelf, Gated, and it is showing Genre as Horror on the book page (righthand column towards the fold). Readers also added to a "Thriller" shelf so showing in that genre as well. There's also a "genre" field in the metadata section although I'm not completely sure that does anything except for the recommendation engine goodreads uses.
Hannah wrote: "I have downloaded hundreds of free books and then, never read them. At the time, I am interested in them, but then, newer books come out that seem even better. I am sure there are a lot of people o..."Hannah, oh the horror! Many, many, of you - I agree... I wonder about the near 1k copies of my book out there. It's like having a kid kidnapped and never getting a ransom note. ;D I hope you have the time to get them read. And, I hope there all good reads.
Steven wrote: "Hannah, oh the horror! Many, many, of you - I agree... I wonder about the near 1k copies of my book out there. It's like having a kid kidnapped and never getting a ransom note. ;D I hope you have the time to get them read. And, I hope there all good reads. "Can't speak for other people, but I will download many free reads to my kindle. Some may be wallflowers, waiting their turn. And since I'm very eclectic, It will depend on my mood as to which genre or book attracts me next. This is NO reflection on the books, as I read a lot and will get to them eventually (probably, unless I don't like the beginning couple of chapters).
I have reviewed a book that I added to my kindle over 6 months prior. Now that I'm an author, I agree that can be maddening, but as a reader, this is just how I read with the free time I have. It was much worse before I had a kindle. LOL.
John wrote: "Steven wrote: "Hannah, oh the horror! Many, many, of you - I agree... I wonder about the near 1k copies of my book out there. It's like having a kid kidnapped and never getting a ransom note. ;D I ...":)
Lol. I agree. Everyone reads books differently. Although we wish for results now now now. We don't always get it. Our lives revolve around books.....others don't.
I'm glad it's not just me experiencing this problem! My book, The Governess, is proving hugely divisive. The people that like it give it five or four star reviews; the others give it two (and in one painful case, one). Yet going by their comments, they seem to have been expecting a completely different book.Basic plot synopsis: lesbian governess falls in love with her (fifteen, then sixteen) year old charge. They embark on a thoroughly unhealthy relationship which destroys them- a situation that isn't helped by the fact the charge also likes men. I clearly state that the governess becomes obsessed and the book has lesbian themes. I don't shy away from the girl's youth- why would an adult need a governess?
What confounds me is how many people seem to overlook these points! I don't mind the reviewer who said she didn't like the thought of young characters being sexually active- everybody has something that makes them uncomfortable, though I do wonder why she picked up the book in the first place. What I don't understand is people saying they didn't notice it was a gay story, when it's right there on the page, or "I don't like f/f!" Why waste time reading something you're not going to enjoy?
The only thing I can think of is my inclusion of the word 'erotica'. I did that to warn there was some sexual content, so readers who are offended by that sort of thing don't buy. Thanks to the 50 Shades boom, I'm worried that readers might come to it expecting something similar.
I must say, Matt- you've been very lucky so far. My reviews worldwide come to about fourteen, hence my concern. If you've 70 or so reviews, bad ones can be discounted, but if you've only a handful and a sizeable chunk of those seem to be from the wrong reader, it can have a horrible effect on your sales.
Matt wrote: "how can I stop non fans of my genre from reading and then reviewing my books when they don't even like the genre."
I never commented on the opening post, but I think that's not how you should be looking at things. Once you put your book up for sale it's out of your hands - you've a released a product, and people can do what they want with it. I understand feeling a personal attachment to our books, paying attention to every review, but really readers can do what they like. The only thing you can do is make your blurb as clear as you can, and if you've done that that's it.
If people were saying: "I didn't realize this was horror from the blurb and I was offended by the violence," that's one thing - you'd change the blurb. But someone can watch a horror movie and write a review saying they hated it because they hate horror movies. It's people's right. All you can do is write the best book you can, put it out there, and hope people like it. It's okay if people don't.
I never commented on the opening post, but I think that's not how you should be looking at things. Once you put your book up for sale it's out of your hands - you've a released a product, and people can do what they want with it. I understand feeling a personal attachment to our books, paying attention to every review, but really readers can do what they like. The only thing you can do is make your blurb as clear as you can, and if you've done that that's it.
If people were saying: "I didn't realize this was horror from the blurb and I was offended by the violence," that's one thing - you'd change the blurb. But someone can watch a horror movie and write a review saying they hated it because they hate horror movies. It's people's right. All you can do is write the best book you can, put it out there, and hope people like it. It's okay if people don't.
Rachael wrote: "I'm glad it's not just me experiencing this problem! My book, The Governess, is proving hugely divisive. The people that like it give it five or four star reviews; the others give it two (and in on..."
I don't want to be rude but to be honest I don't think your blurb is all that clear. It says:
"An erotic thriller set in Victorian England. Miss Benson, a governess, is sent to teach Amy how to be a lady. Amy is discovering the joys of sex and suitors. Miss Benson's unconventional methods lead to scandal, heartbreak and murder as she becomes obsessed with her young charge."
Amy discovering the joys of sex doesn't say clearly that she's having sex with her governess. The next sentence doesn't clearly say that they're in a relationship - the governess could be obsessed with her charge but not in a sexual relationship with her. I'm not saying the book is bad, and the premise is actually something I think people would really like, but the blurb is extremely vague. I'm not surprised people don't realize it's a gay story. Miss Benson's unconventional methods doesn't really say anything at all. I'd really look at expanding the blurb a little to make it more obvious, even if it pains you to do so. Of course you can ignore me :)
I don't want to be rude but to be honest I don't think your blurb is all that clear. It says:
"An erotic thriller set in Victorian England. Miss Benson, a governess, is sent to teach Amy how to be a lady. Amy is discovering the joys of sex and suitors. Miss Benson's unconventional methods lead to scandal, heartbreak and murder as she becomes obsessed with her young charge."
Amy discovering the joys of sex doesn't say clearly that she's having sex with her governess. The next sentence doesn't clearly say that they're in a relationship - the governess could be obsessed with her charge but not in a sexual relationship with her. I'm not saying the book is bad, and the premise is actually something I think people would really like, but the blurb is extremely vague. I'm not surprised people don't realize it's a gay story. Miss Benson's unconventional methods doesn't really say anything at all. I'd really look at expanding the blurb a little to make it more obvious, even if it pains you to do so. Of course you can ignore me :)
I never went into KDP select so I didn't go the free day route. I was asked for it to be available on things other than kindle. With that being said, I still publish through kdp (And I CANNOT STAND the limited choice on what you have to choose for your book). I also have chosen to ebook through smashwords, unfortunately I ran into somewhat of the same problem except this time, being it is in many e-stores they still put it in their own category.I would LOVE to offer it for free just to have people read ONLY on smashwords but woe is me I get reader sets price and it gets lost amongst the crowd even then.
It is very disheartening but like the other person said, if its out there work with what you got and keep going. I for one, realize that at some point I'm going to have to stop marketing as much and finish the darn next one in the series.
Where are the genre's of old? It was much easier when I started writing. And I'm not ancient.....at least not that I think of. My bones don't feel so dry yet.
It is out in paperback in amazon though, so that's decent.
Anybody know a good place to check out that is of vampire nature but not sparkly or full of teenage angst? Somewhere where the woman kicks butt and, although falls in love, is the big champion in the end? I kill off a lot of people too cause I like that. A lot. Great stress reducer ;) So it's actually a cross breed of Underworld movie action, Anne Rice fittings of vamp lore, with a big Fire & Ice feel to it. hahahahahaa, what genre does that go in? Too many darn genre's and not enough readers want to go outside of what they know.
Sorry for the ramble......reminder, coffee BEFORE goodreads
One of my HUGE annoyances at the minute is the genre categories over at Amazon. I have stuck with them and their KDP program as my third attempt at a novel "Gated" did really good numbers on the free days (my last five days I ran together for 9656 downloads). When I first uploaded the book I was able to select Horror as a main category and then a subsection of Thriller, perfect. When I uploaded my latest novel "Asylum - 13 Tales of Terror I wanted to pick Horror and then Horror Anthologies. Despite there clearly being the horror chart and its subsections I was unable to select them and I had to spend a lot of time emailing Amazon to get them to list my book in those sections. Eventually I got them to list me correctly and I went from being lost on the genre free anthology chart to #1 on the Horror/Anthology chart.
Matt wrote: "One of my HUGE annoyances at the minute is the genre categories over at Amazon. I have stuck with them and their KDP program as my third attempt at a novel "Gated" did really good numbers on the fr..."
Speaking as someone who generally sells a whole lot of nothing most of the time - even if people seem interested in my books - I think if you're selling a fair bit every day that's great. Maybe try to look at the positive. Did you sell nothing in the beginning? Do you remember what that felt like? It's terrible, so rather than becoming upset over what's going wrong, maybe be overjoyed you're actually selling a lot. Because most of us don't, despite trying really hard.
Speaking as someone who generally sells a whole lot of nothing most of the time - even if people seem interested in my books - I think if you're selling a fair bit every day that's great. Maybe try to look at the positive. Did you sell nothing in the beginning? Do you remember what that felt like? It's terrible, so rather than becoming upset over what's going wrong, maybe be overjoyed you're actually selling a lot. Because most of us don't, despite trying really hard.
Matt wrote: "I was unable to select them and I had to spend a lot of time emailing Amazon to get them to list my book in those sections. Eventually I got them to list me correctly and I went from being lost on the genre free anthology chart to #1 on the Horror/Anthology chart. "Ok, I'm just getting this weird feeling. I could be completely off base, but I'm starting to wonder if this isn't a sort of backhanded marketing ploy on your part. You keep saying things are difficult for you, but then you follow that with posting super numbers, how well the book is really doing, how highly it is ranked.
It's a head scratcher. You seem to be making contradictory arguments: The system is gamed against you & you're doing really successfully in the system.
If I'm wrong, I apologize.
My first two books disapeared without a trace so I am very well aware of what it's like, but I do not want to waste any tiny crack in the door to move forward. The quickest thing that you find is no matter what you do, there seems to be whole heap of people doing much better. I work incredibly hard to try and get better and find a modicum of success. It's like being a shark, the second that you stop moving forward you drown. The other thing that I've found for what it's worth, is that the ability to write a book is no more than half the equation, the other half is luck in getting noticed.
Re: Mona- No offence taken. I was going by the Amazon tags- its chief tag is 'Lesbian', though it's also down as 'Historical' and 'Erotica'. Perhaps when people come across it, they've used one of the other tags- or picked it up by one of the free giveaways.This being my first published book, it's very much a learning curve. If it doesn't easily fit into a category, it's tricky to market. Another issue could be overfamilarity with old lesbian titles and Sarah Waters novels; if you know the "code", certain phrases equal gay goings on, but perhaps they don't mean much to the straight reader. I'll have a think and see if there's a way of making it clearer.
John wrote: "Matt wrote: "I was unable to select them and I had to spend a lot of time emailing Amazon to get them to list my book in those sections. Eventually I got them to list me correctly and I went from b..."Believe me I am nowhere in the grand scheme of authors and success stories. I am bashing my head against against a brick wall in trying to literary agents to even bother reading my submissions. There are plenty of charts that do not require high download numbers to register on them. And just exactly who would I be marketing to? This is a thread for authors to give help, thoughts and opinions.
Matt wrote: "My first two books disapeared without a trace so I am very well aware of what it's like, but I do not want to waste any tiny crack in the door to move forward. The quickest thing that you find is n..."
I understand it is stressful, and you're right - getting noticed is half the battle. I had a few weeks of good sales last year after a good free run, but it petered away after a while and made me quite sad. I guess you want to hold onto the success as much as you can and propel it into ongoing sales. From the point of view of those of us who aren't selling, though, all I can think is, "OMG he's selling so much!" But it is hard :)
I understand it is stressful, and you're right - getting noticed is half the battle. I had a few weeks of good sales last year after a good free run, but it petered away after a while and made me quite sad. I guess you want to hold onto the success as much as you can and propel it into ongoing sales. From the point of view of those of us who aren't selling, though, all I can think is, "OMG he's selling so much!" But it is hard :)
Rachael wrote: "Re: Mona- No offence taken. I was going by the Amazon tags- its chief tag is 'Lesbian', though it's also down as 'Historical' and 'Erotica'. Perhaps when people come across it, they've used one of ..."
I wouldn't want you to go against the way books in your genre are typically described, but yes, to the straight reader the blurb seems vague. I think it would only take a mild change to what you have, and maybe a couple of extra sentences to make it clearer. It might seem like dumbing it down, and it probably is, but I think it would help. I wouldn't want you to lose potential readers because they don't know what the story is about, or alienate readers who didn't want a lesbian story :)
I wouldn't want you to go against the way books in your genre are typically described, but yes, to the straight reader the blurb seems vague. I think it would only take a mild change to what you have, and maybe a couple of extra sentences to make it clearer. It might seem like dumbing it down, and it probably is, but I think it would help. I wouldn't want you to lose potential readers because they don't know what the story is about, or alienate readers who didn't want a lesbian story :)
Matt wrote: "John wrote: "Matt wrote: "I was unable to select them and I had to spend a lot of time emailing Amazon to get them to list my book in those sections. Eventually I got them to list me correctly and ..."well, like I said, I could be (and was) wrong.
I do nothing but sympathise with you Mona. Whilst I think that I might have what it takes to write a half decent book one day, I don't think that I am built to be an author. One good review and I'm bouncing off the ceiling and one bad and throwing the computer in the bin. Nobody is around to tell you of the emotional rollercoaster when you sit down to try and write a book. It all seems like such great fun to start with, and you enjoy all the hard work. Then when you are so proud to release the fruits of your labour onto the world, someone rips it to shreds with a half hearted review. I think that we all need to maintain a little bit of distance and keep clear heads when it comes to our babies :)
John wrote: "Matt wrote: "John wrote: "Matt wrote: "I was unable to select them and I had to spend a lot of time emailing Amazon to get them to list my book in those sections. Eventually I got them to list me c..."Apologies if I sounded snappy, long day!!
Matt wrote: "Apologies if I sounded snappy, long day!! "none needed. I was the one speculating out of line. ;)
I do think that the likes of Amazon could do more to make sure that people realise what they are letting themselves in for when it comes to self-publishing. They are quick enough to set up their own percentages in case you start selling, but there is very little help or preparation for what may lie ahead, especially in terms of reviews and comments etc.
Matt wrote: "I do think that the likes of Amazon could do more to make sure that people realise what they are letting themselves in for when it comes to self-publishing. They are quick enough to set up their ow..."I agree there is little preparation from Amazon for understanding marketing, or even the best ways to utilize KDP select for example, but I think the reviews are just what they are. If we aren't prepared for them, or we are prepared for them, it really doesn't matter. They will be whatever they will be.
Rachael wrote: "...I was going by the Amazon tags- its chief tag is 'Lesbian', though it's also down as 'Historical' and 'Erotica'. Perhaps when people come across it, they've used one of the other tags- or picked it up by one of the free giveaways. ..."On goodreads, you have not "tagged" (that is, shelved) as anything much less assigned a genre. That might help you here with the browsing goodreads members.
On your author profile, you can also say what genres you normally write in (doesn't set a genre for any book but does show on your author profile). If you don't like the few sample genres, click "other" and put whatever you like.
Take a look at the meta data for your book, too, to see what's there. (Under "edit details" there's the normal edit screen and a "show metadata" tab to click. Right now you have no meta data answers, including genre. ) I say that without completely understanding how goodreads uses meta data (do know it is used somehow in the recommendations engine; no clue how many potential readers even know it's there or add metadata answers themselves ).
All of the sites that publicise free days used to be free, but a large percentage of them now charge around $5. There is a good website - www.authormarketingclub.com where you can access a whole slew of sites from just the one page of shortcuts. You just have to join the author marketing club site which is free and it's a very handy tool. Also Twitter and Facebook are awash with sites that might promote your free days. I have reluctantly spent a lot of time on the social media sites but it is worth while.
I've enjoyed the banter and discussion here. The crux of it is a serious question for all writers, and especially for Indies. Here, we can take a tip from the old, traditional publishing industry and their interrelation with the media. No publisher, with huge money invested in a project, would ever send out advance copies for review, unless they are sure of that reviewer's taste in genre, style, voice, etc. ON the other hand, many Indies think the best way to get the word out is to just send thousands of freebies out to the world as if they are shooting books out of a 12 gauge. That approach will get comments, but there will be trolls, idiots and comments from people who don't like the genre, etc. Good, well written, concise reviews will be few and far between. Writers need to know who they are writing for. They need to test their work with beta readers. Once they decide their books are ready to publish -- after determining their target reader, then make sure that their target readers are the ones who review their work. Of course, a few twos and threes among the fours and fives are fine, for the transparency that appeals to a lot of book buyers, but if a writer thinks that a published book's reviews come in from the ether, in random batches, they need to learn a bit more about the industry and publicity. Marketing is marketing.
I found regular reviewers on Amazon that I thought might like my book and offered them a free copy for a review. One absolutely loved my book and pushed my rating right up. Another was indifferent and pushed the rating back down again.I've learnt it's something that you can't control. That's life.
I find begging helps - please all read my new bookie, Granny Smith and the Deadly Frogs. Pssst, there's some lesbian wrestling!
Matt wrote: "All of the sites that publicise free days used to be free, but a large percentage of them now charge around $5. There is a good website - www.authormarketingclub.com where you can access a whole sl..."Has anyone used www.authormarketingclub.com? There's one section where they invite you to upload your manuscript so people interested in reviewing it can download it - but then stipulates that readers are under no obligation to review your book.
The first alarm bells went off when I read that they want you to upload your manuscript. Hmmm.
I have only used the site for their very handy "all on one page" free book publicity. I have found on other sites that authors swapping reviews is not usually a good gauge. You tend to get all good but generic reviews because they want the same in return.
Up load a manuscript on a site that is not protected? Where anyone can download? I might of been born at night, but I wasn't born last night...
I will check them out, but like you, Nick, I'm not uploading the full manuscript.Maybe there is the possibility to upload an excerpt or the first chapter.
You can easily do that on this site as well. I'm sure readers would leave comments and feedback.
I know some groups offer an Author Reader Review service. I don't think the ones I'm a part of, do.
The right reader is the one that purchases your work...
Nick wrote: "The right reader is the one that purchases your work..."the right reader is the one that enjoys your work
Not necessarily John. Who are we to say who should read anything because they are "right" for it. Sounds like back in high schoo when people wanted to hang out with the "right" people.
Hannah wrote: "Not necessarily John. Who are we to say who should read anything because they are "right" for it. Sounds like back in high schoo when people wanted to hang out with the "right" people."um, not what i meant. I wasn't meaning restrict anyone reading (?!) I meant those that enjoy it, are the wonderful people that the book is meant for. More of a connection between artist and audience. I was responding to the idea that anyone who buys it is the right reader, but I think I don't care if they borrow it or get it for free, if they enjoyed what I created, then they are the right audience.
not sure if I explained it any better, but there you go.
I got it John. I'm on a mission to find those people.
Well, my book, when this interminable publishing process wraps up, is controversial nonfiction. I don't want people enjoying it, I want people pissed off, hopefully on both sides of the argument. Publicity is publicity whether happy or raging.
John, I understood your comment, but I am not sure you understood mine.I think as has been proven from many comments about the free give-a-way here and on Amazon, free does not equal an increase in sales, or reviews for most writers. So to me, the perfect reader will be the one that BUYS my work.
After all, if they buy my book, they must have a reason. Maybe the blurb intrigued them. Maybe they read a sample and found the story and writing fit their likes. Most readers are not going to buy a book if the story or style is one they dislike...
My books are in the horror genre and clearly state as much with the synopsis and the covers. Yet I have had several reviewers leave only average marks because they don't like horror books! One novel uses the line in the synopsis of "Gangsters and vampires" and yet one reviewer started their review stating that they didn't like mob books or vampire books and thus gave it a poor rating.
I fully expect to receive comstructive criticism but how can I stop non fans of my genre from reading and then reviewing my books when they don't even like the genre.