The Great Gatsby
discussion
If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list...
if we had to choose between the classics and modern good literary fiction, that would be one thing, but there is no reason why we cant have a nice blend of both. sure some kids wont like one or the other, but its like food, if you offer a nice variety, they will find what does suit them. if they eat chicken nuggets all their life, they will think chicken nuggets are the only thing worth eating....give them a fun read, preferably a good one, give them an american classic, give them a european, and arabic, an african, an asian and maybe a south american author or two, and a really good modern novel from anywhere, and maybe even a terrible one, so they can learn from failure. of course if it is english lit or american lit, that might be more limiting, but there is still a wide range, even in american lit you have the classics, the new work and in the new work, you have a great diversity of voices that were largely not heard 100 yrs ago, women, blacks, asian, latino, gay, new york, southern and so on
Uplandpoet wrote: "if we had to choose between the classics and modern good literary fiction, that would be one thing, but there is no reason why we cant have a nice blend of both. sure some kids wont like one or the..."Also - a great teacher can involve you in almost any book. I loved the Grapes of Wrath because I had an amazing teacher that let us run with it...but if you just are given a book and told to read....you can get lost
Well, with grapes, I didn't get lost. I just hate the way J S wrote!!!!! He is more effective than Ayn Rand at creating sympathy for the well off and antipathy for the poor!
I'm just saying that Grapes isn't the most interesting book for kids but with the right interaction it can be an incredible read.
ok, i will concede your point:)
Uplandpoet wrote: "ok, i will concede your point:)";-)
sounds like you have a pretty good reading requirement at your school. i do hope they laced in modern quality fiction with these great 20th century classics...(and please, when they have you read As I Lay dying, by William Faulkner, dont let that turn you off. It is his 3rd weakest book, make sure you try one or more of the great ones!)
McKenna wrote: "Im a current junior in high school and we just finished reading Gatsby in class and actually a lot of people liked it and thats in a regular english class . We are now starting Of Mice and Men. I f..."
The Great Gatsby is a classic!!! I still remember reading it and will probably read it again before I go see the remake of the movie. It was one of the classes favorite books!!!!
Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students..." I could not disagree more. I read this last year in my Honors English class as a Junior. We specifically talked about how it is so extremely relevant to today's society. Though it pains me to admit it, my generation is full of selfish, entitled, careless individuals; much like many of the characters in Gatsby. It revealed the consequences of living in this manner, and is a good way to get my generation to see that frivolousness living leads to destruction. All of the students within my section of English would talk about Gatsby OUTSIDE OF CLASS. We debated and discussed what Fitzgerald meant. Is that not the goal of taking an English class; to discuss and debate literature in a mature and intelligent manner? Gatsby is still relevant today and it would be a shame for it to stop being taught in schools because 'grown-ups' are cross for being forced to read it when they were in High School.
Bryan wrote: "Seriously, what does "age-relevant" have to do with it? Kids will either like it or they won't. Is Shakespeare "age-relevant" to today's high-school students? Does it matter? We should be attempting to elevate the level of reading amongst youth, and that means exposing them to classics."Of course age-relevancy matters. It is true that The Great Gatsby is a 'high-school reading level' (8.1/10 which = ~Grade 12), truth is, many students fall below the expected reading level. If a piece of literature is too difficult to comprehend, it's natural for students to dislike or take little interest in it.
Supposed I gave a classroom of high school students each a book. Books exploring subjects like preparing homes for newborns, wealth/retirement planning or legal considerations of a will, etc.... How realistic is it that a 17 or 18 year old will enjoy books of which they have little relevance to?
Yes we should attempt to elevate readibility and explosing them to classics is one way. But I'm doubtful that the current approach is effective way.
All right, we are on to the 365th post, one for each day of the year.What we've discovered is that while some people agree with the original poster, it seems a great many people loved reading The Great Gatsby in high school, including recent students.
Further, many people think the notion of "age-relevant" is a humbug, if it means students will only be able to relate to kids their own age. It wasn't true of me or -- wait for it -- ANYONE I have ever met. There were plenty of kids who didn't like literature, who'd rather do science or play sports or would have preferred to skip school entirely. But the none who could only read about people roughly their own age.
Now one always needs to find a way to connect to literature. But the comparison of The Great Gatsby to a book on retirement planning is absurd.
Among the themes of The Great Gatsby are 1) the nature of romantic love and what one can or will do for it, 2) how careful we need to be of each others lives and the consequences of carelessness, and a 3) questioning of American society and what's important in life.
It's also quite beautifully written and funny.
Gee, how could a teenager relate to that?
What's more Gatsby is not just another book. It's the 20th century American novel that showed up most on both the lists of the Modern Library editors and the Radcliffe Publishing Course -- two prominent lists that were talked about a lot at the end of the last century. There is no list of most important books of the twentieth century that I'm aware of which it isn't on.
And why are we picking on The Great Gatsby -- one of the most attractive books among the high school standards?
Clearly, some students will never love literature. Other students are behind and needed to have been better served before high school. But to pitch a reading list to the lowest common denominator does everyone else an injustice.
I haven't read every post so I hope I am not merely putting down what someone else may have already said.In high school Math, students are expected to learn concepts of algebra, calculus, trigonometry, etc. that are either beyond their interest or beyond their current level of mathematical understanding; in Science and other academic courses much the same occurs. The worthy purpose lies in the hope that through their endeavors these students will become better mathematicians, scientists, historians, etc.
On the sports field a soccer coach may demonstrate and have students practice some intricate skills that are beyond the students' current capabilities and perhaps not even of particular interest to them - after all, everyone wants to just shoot at the goal and be the hero who wins the game, right? But the coach wants to make them better soccer players, and this is one way to achieve that target.
Well...why not apply the same expectations to English courses, where teachers push students beyond their current reading abilities so that they become better readers, writers, and thinkers? And what better way to do that than to select a book that is exquisitely written, requires careful and in-depth analysis, and inevitably forces the students to confront some major life issues? That The Great Gatsby may be beyond their current reading abilities and/or spheres of personal interest is exactly why it SHOULD be taught in high school.
I've said this before, and I'll say in again: Stephen King's Carrie is relevant to today's youth. Carrie comes from a poor family, she's bullied, she's abused at home., and she wants desperately to fit in. You sympathize for Carrie because the average teenager typically has one or more of these traits. It's much easier to relate to Carrie White than spoiled brats like Holden Caulfield or Jay Gatsby (telekinesis notwithstanding) because you can understand her pain, and the setting isn't just believable; it's familiar. Kids want to read something familiar, not a crusty old novel written a century before they were born.That said, do NOT give them Twilight. No one should read Twilight.
Although I agree with you regarding Carrie being a relevant novel today and Holden Caulfield being a spoiled brat (who I wanted to punch) but Gatsby is far from a crusty old novel written (not quite) a century ago. That kind of philosophy regarding literature would put any literature written before the early 1970s as irrelevant, which would be a major disservice to any young person interested in literature and a disservice to anyone wanting to learn about life outside of their own egocentric box.
so completely agree!!!!!Dr. Michael wrote: "Although I agree with you regarding Carrie being a relevant novel today and Holden Caulfield being a spoiled brat (who I wanted to punch) but Gatsby is far from a crusty old novel written (not quit..."
"And so we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."
Sorry Tom, it's the old (and I mean old) school teacher in me. I do agree, in part, with what you are saying but I believe in teaching The Sun Also Rises the instructor has to make the student aware of just what the characters in the novel have gone through (WWI) to have reached the point in their lives where the novel finds them. Without some background in WWI and the circumstances of trench warfare and without some biographical intro to Hemingway the average 17 year old is going to be lost in trying to comprehend the novel let alone be bored shitless by it.
Dr. Michael wrote: "The Sun Also Rises the instructor has to make the student aware of just what the characters in the novel have gone through (WWI) to have reached the point in their lives where the novel finds them. Without some background in WWI and the circumstances of trench warfare and without some biographical intro to Hemingway the average 17 years old is going to be lost in trying to comprehend the novel let alone be bored shitless by it. "Agreed. Wish I'd been in that class.
My suggestion to young folks who may be interested in reading The Sun Also Rises is to read All Quiet On The Western Front first.
Monty J, my son lives in Alameda. He has a degree in literature from Bates College.Didn't mean to hijack this thread. Seems as if I've turned it into a Sun Also Rises thread from it's original Gatsby thread.
The whole point of Gatsby is to show that obtaining such vast amounts of wealth still leaves you empty inside and yearning for the love and compassion not existent in the business-first life. How is that not relevant to a group of teenagers today? We live in a country where the rich are getting richer, and we should be showing our teenagers that they shouldn't be pursuing that kind of life; they should be following one that promotes personal relationships like Nick wanted, but ended up moving back to the Midwest because Long Island didn't have it.
Matt, if they had a like button I would hit it!
Dr. Michael wrote: "Monty J, my son lives in Alameda. He has a degree in literature from Bates College.Didn't mean to hijack this thread. Seems as if I've turned it into a Sun Also Rises thread from it's original Gat..."
Lucky son. Wish I'd taken my freshman English teacher's advice and changed majors to English.
Maybe I can return for a second degree. The Sun Also Rises is another of my favorites. I plan on creating some threads over there one day soon.
We read mostly American Literature in my Jr. year in HS back in the early 80s. This included Huck Finn, the Great Gatsby, Intruder in the Dust (instead of Moby Dick that year), the Scarlet Letter, The Crucible, Death of a Salesman, of Mice and Men, Othello and Julius Caesar (the last two were not American, obviously, but they made us read at least one Shakespeare tragedy and one Shakespeare historic play each year). I know there were a couple other novels as well, and some poems and short stories too. I mostly enjoyed the books and plays we had to read, except the Faulkener.
"I mostly enjoyed the books and plays we had to read, except the Faulkener." wow! I love all the above except the JS, but of all of them, more Faulkner than the rest combined! I guess literary tastes vary based upon actual mileage:)
Dr. Michael wrote: "Although I agree with you regarding Carrie being a relevant novel today and Holden Caulfield being a spoiled brat (who I wanted to punch) but Gatsby is far from a crusty old novel written (not quit..."Not quite a century, but it doesn't matter if it's 90 years old or 90 decades old. The reality is that kids can't relate to The Great Gatsby at all. They just don't give a damn. So they're going to hate the book. Kids need to be introduced to modern literature in the classroom; not junk like Twilight or 50 Shades of Gray, but something that is both relevant and attention grabbing. This is why I support Carrie on the reading list, no matter how unlikely it is.
Josh, considering that about half the kids who love to read love the book, and considering the other half wouldnt read anything that didnt involve, cars, guns, naked girls, or make up or fashion or whatever crap the girls that dont like to read, read, and considering that it is a book introduced to them by english teachers, it must be still pretty dern relevant.....
oh, and before someone comments, let me say i love english teachers, especially the ones that open doors into foreign worlds for students, but as in my experience, 9 out of 10 of them are quite content to just kill frogs....thus the comment about gatsby surviving being introduced by english teachers
Gold Coast, by Nelson DeMille. Modern day Great Gatsby. Once you throw the Mafia in all kids are intersted!
somehow Nelson seems a long step down from F Scott.....
Josh, I disagree. In my experience, students will find relevant what an English teacher provides relevant background for. As I have said before, there are so many relevant issues in Gatsby. The first that comes to mind is the issue of trying to win friends and lovers by trying to be something you are not. It happens every day in high school. Don't sell the students short.
Lara wrote: "Josh, I disagree. In my experience, students will find relevant what an English teacher provides relevant background for. As I have said before, there are so many relevant issues in Gatsby. The ..."
I completely agree. If the student doesn't find Gatsby relevant, it is because the teacher has failed to create a conversation about the real themes inside the novel. You can talk about flappers and the roaring twenties all you want, but that only provides background to the novel. It doesn't show the students what Fitzgerald was trying to get across.
I completely agree. If the student doesn't find Gatsby relevant, it is because the teacher has failed to create a conversation about the real themes inside the novel. You can talk about flappers and the roaring twenties all you want, but that only provides background to the novel. It doesn't show the students what Fitzgerald was trying to get across.
Matty wrote: "Lara wrote: "Josh, I disagree. In my experience, students will find relevant what an English teacher provides relevant background for. As I have said before, there are so many relevant issues in ..."Well said, Lara and Matty! Great books have something to say about humanity, not just about a particular age, race, nationality or class. One of the reasons they’re taught is so students will see the universal themes that exist in good literature.
Actually, I think Tender is the Night is Fitzgerald's best book. But you could go with a Hispanic woman--Sandra Cisneros, a black man James Baldwin, Raymond Carver, who revolutionized the short story. Ursula Hegi, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Toni Morrison, Alice Walker, Jeannette Winterson is very accessible....
Whitney agreed.Carroll, I expect those authors ARE being taught, alongside the old classics
The Great Gatsby had potential. For the first half of the book, I was under the impression that Nick Carraway was the main character until about halfway through the book when, all of a sudden, Gatsby was the main character. I wish that this crucial point had been made clear earlier in the book.
Eliza wrote: "The Great Gatsby had potential. For the first half of the book, I was under the impression that Nick Carraway was the main character until about halfway through the book when, all of a sudden, Gats..."it kind of depends on what you consider the "main character". nick is the narrator throughout the whole book. though the events may not always revolve primarily around him, everything we see as a reader, we see through his eyes. some might consider that to be the main character. either way though, the title of the book should have been a hint as to where the book would ultimately go. and, if the title wasnt enough, the fact that nick alludes to gatsby's role in the story on the second page of the book, maybe that should have clued you in....
Eliza wrote: "The Great Gatsby had potential. For the first half of the book, I was under the impression that Nick Carraway was the main character until about halfway through the book when, all of a sudden, Gats..."I agree that the setup of the book at the beginning could have been improved.
That said, a case can be made that Nick is indeed the main character, not Gatsby. Nick is in every scene because he's the narrator. We're seeing everything through his eyes. Even when he's relating second-hand information, it's got his embellished tone and style.
And the main theme of the book is demonstrated through Nick, for he is the only one who undergoes significant transformation. He comes away with a less adulant (a made-up word), more practical view of those who have acquired wealth.
Gatsby doesn't change, nor the Buchanans, nor Jordan, nor Woslfsheim. Only Nick weighs what he has witnessed against his set of values and repudiates them and what they represent.
I would replace it with Stow Away. Yes I believe it is that good.
i assume you mean this Stowaway:http://www.amazon.com/Stowaway-Karen-...
somehow replacing a contemporary book of the early 1900s with a modern book that looks back to the late 1700s doesnt seem to get us anymore relevant, though both are certainly very good books, as is because of winn dixie, but both of the latter are excellent elementary and middle school books, F Scott is more for high school and college. Neither of the YA books are less than suitable for any age, but to use as texts, i think they are written more for the younger crowd.
Sorry Anthony I met my book Stow Away.
Wow! Wasn't expecting self promotion:)
This is COMPLETE RUBBISH! My best friend in high school NEVER read anything - she read Gatsby and LOVED it! Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever if people would stop cramming it down their throats and telling them they should think it's the best book ever! I think we need to expect more from our teenagers...but having said that millions of "grown ups" are reading the 50 Shades books and those are ABYSMAL pieces of "writing" ultimately you either become a reader, or you don't. I think if you want to keep books like The Great Gatsby relevant for young people you as teachers need to stop recycling the same old Cliff's Notes lesson plans about "time motifs" and rubbish like that...True authority, will deny it's authority and hand it back to the student. Try asking them what they think about it, free of what you (the teacher) think they should think about it...just saying.
Erin, excellent points
I agree, it's much nicer when teachers ask what you think. Personally,I become more interested when teachers ask what I think. I at least remember the point we were discussing because the teacher found my opinion worthwhile. "Gatsby" might not have been so confusing to me if there had been more discussion about it in my classroom. Something new to learn every day, isn't there? :)
Very well said Erin.
So well said Erin! Students should do more talking in class about the books. I don't have to work so hard ;) and I get to learn something as well.
Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students. If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."
Age-relevence is a fallacious standard by which to judge a novel's worth in the modern canon.
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If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."
I read this book for the 1st time when I was a freshman or sophomore in h.s. It was still age relevant for me. I enjoyed it immensely, enough to re-read it in my 20s and my 30s and I'm going to re-read it again in my 40s. That's what makes it a classic. Doesn't matter where I am, books like this, and this book, stand the test of time.