If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list...

[Míceál]

Sorry, I've argued half my life away. No point. I prefer to sit on my rocking chair on my deck, smoke my pipe, read a good book, look out at the ocean and let the rest of the world go by. Maybe 40 years ago I would have kept up the discussion but not anymore. Maybe someone else will take up the discussion.

[Chrissie]

My first language is Greek but I attended an English speaking high school in Cyprus, and we did The Great Gatsby in fourth grade (I don't know the grade in American terms...I was about 15 years of age)

I was an excellent student back then but I remember not fully understanding this book. I couldn't care less about it; I didn't even remember anything from it at all, except that there was a woman named Daisy in there. In 2006-2010 I went to college in the USA and my vocabulary expanded considerably. A month ago I had time on my hands and when I saw it on my bookshelf I decided to read it again. I am now 27, so 12 years later from my original read.

I was so surprised to realise that I hadn't understood half of what was going on back in school (and I had written numerous essays on it back then, merely repeating the notes of the teacher I suppose, without understanding them fully). My 27year old self absolutely loved the book and fell in love with Fitzgerald's writing. It is by far the best of the classics in my opinion. I am so glad I decided to revisit it

So I think that the book is definitely hard for foreign students. Even the ones who attend English speaking schools

I thought I would give some input from Europe!

Have a good day everyone

[Ashby]

I loved The Catcher in the Rye and I read that as a junior. Lord of the Flies I normally teach to sophomores (because of the psyche split). I read Shakespeare in junior high. Any English/Literature is relevant if put correctly. The problem that comes with it is that you have to have someone willing to teach it right and talk about it on the students' level.

Another thing with learning to love literature, a lot of the time isthe problem is that students are forced with one item because it's a classic, but cannot gain anything else reading wise. I always make sure that aside from the classroom reading I have mine own reading, which is sci-fi and fantasy. I just taught Agatha Christie and had great success.

[Jessica]

Harry Potter Series

[David]

I know it's blasphemy but I have never understood all the accolades The Great Gatsby receives. To me it was just good but not all that.

There are so many classics I would put ahead of Gatsby. Brave New World, 1984, Animal Farm, Crime and Punishment, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Catch 22, Lord of the Flies....the list goes on.

[Míceál]

I would not put any of Tolkien's work ahead of Gatsby. But maybe that's just me. The Harry Potter Series. Not exactly great literature. Sorry Jessica.

[Katie]

Speaking as a recent high school graduate who has had to under-go the typical required reading, I would never vote for The Great Gatsby to be taken off the list. The writing in it can be best described as artistic, and I don't believe that the problems in it are "too adult." You can never learn the lesson of "money won't buy you happiness" too early.

[Rebecca]

Animal farm is great

[Geoffrey]

David
My sentiments exactly. There are so many "masterpieces" out there that I would not raise the banner higher on the flag post for GG. As for Tolkein, his is not the best of writings, as his style and mode of expression doesn`t match that of the others you mention, but his genius lies in his fertile imagination.

[Ashby]

Tolkein was a fabulous writer, his problem is that his writing is esoteric and the descriptions are a bit involved. I didn't touch Harry Potter until AFTER the hype died down because there are a TON of good authors and books with underlying meaning rather than the challenge of one boy growing up. Especially on a high school level. Think of the Jungle or even the Illustrated Man or Fahrenheit 451. All of those have two or three messages at least. When I taught Lord of the Flies I was teaching with six different messages and representations at least. And, for the most part, my students got it. Remember, you don't have to like something to learn from it.

[Anna]

Ashby wrote: "I loved The Catcher in the Rye and I read that as a junior. Lord of the Flies I normally teach to sophomores (because of the psyche split). I read Shakespeare in junior high. Any English/Literature..."

That is a wonderful idea!

[Zoe]

Monty J wrote: "Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students.

If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well writ..."

I read the outsiders in the eight grade, and both of mice and men and to kill a mockingbird last year in ninth grade. I've already read the Great Gatsby for pleasure reading. Honestly I really enjoyed all three of them,better than I expected. I am actually a fan of classics. None of them were difficult to understand at all, and my English class gets into lively debates about the subjects. Sorry, I just had to add my two cents. :)

[Jack]

David wrote: "I know it's blasphemy but I have never understood all the accolades The Great Gatsby receives. To me it was just good but not all that.

There are so many classics I would put ahead of Gatsby. B..."

I love all of these books, and I actually read BNW, Animal Farm, 1984, and The Hobbit in my high school. The rest I've read on my own and thoroughly enjoyed. I think most of those would be great to read in high school, but I definitely don't think they should read any Tolkein or Catch 22. Tolkien's books are very descriptive and can take a while to get through. I'm don't know why exactly, but they don't seem like books to read at school to me. Catch 22 is one of my favorite books, but is hecka confusing. I know many adults who could never get through it, let alone high schoolers who probably don't care as much.

[Ashby]

I have not read Catch 22 but a number of adults I have met seem to think that just because a book is "confusing" kids won't get it. If the TEACHER (I do this) is willing to work with the students and take the time to break down the book into parts, then it shouldn't be any problem.

[Jack]

Ashby wrote: "I have not read Catch 22 but a number of adults I have met seem to think that just because a book is "confusing" kids won't get it. If the TEACHER (I do this) is willing to work with the students a..."

It's not that high schoolers can't read confusing books, I think that they should. But this book is especially confusing and bizarre. More so than most books.

[Annemarie]

42 Parallel
Their Eyes Were Watching God
Giovanni's Room
The Road

Something that deals with issues other than being bored rich and white.

[Ashby]

.....But the love issue relates to all ages. it just needs to be understood. If a student doesn't understand it THEN THE TEACHER is suppose to lead them to it. Help them find it.

[Míceál]

The Road by Cormac McCarthy? McCarthy is one of the better writers of the 21st Century. Manchild In The Promised Land by Claude Brown. Almost anything by Dos Passos. Good picks Annemarie. I've never read Their Eyes Were Watching God.

[Kelsey]

Lara wrote: "There should be a book somewhere that deals with a boy who falls in love with a girl who is out of his league, yeah that's it...that would be relevant to teenagers. And then this boy would spend all his life working to make himself acceptable to this girl. And then, just as he is able to meet her at her own level, there is a rival who doesn't play fair. Yeah, there should be a book like that.

That would be relevant."

Ha! Nailed it.

[Míceál]

Chilly Scenes Of Winter by Ann Beattie.

[Anthony]

Love it Lara!!

[Rebecca]

Animal farm is great

[Joseph]

I do think that as an example of overt symbolism and as I said narration, it is a good book that is easy to read and dissect. It is difficult as an adult to think back to this as an acquired skill, and as a teacher I know how important a high rate of success can be for the beginner. Lay off Dr. M people!

[Paul]

How about keeping Gatsby and pairing it with Nelson DeMille's 'Gold Coast'? A good teacher could have a lot of good 'then and now' discussions about societal norms at essentially the same location.

One big plus about keeping Gatsby is it's a fairly easy read. Plus the new film by pop culture whore Baz Luhrman has surely generated new interest. DeMille's book makes an interesting contrast. IMO it's DeMille's best effort.

[Paul]

I notice a lot of mention of books mentioned are themselves required-reading classics. I read most of them in school. Catch 22, Animal Farm, Mice and Men...all good books no more or less relevant than Gatsby. Since I grew up on the Gold Coast (East Egg) I found Gatsby quite relevant. The one book I remember as a real snoozer was 'Death be not Proud'. I'd probably appreciate it more now.

Anything by Updike, Vonnegut or John Irving and DeLillo's 'Underworld' would all be good contemporary lit suitable for the classroom. Maybe not in a town full of church ladies.

[Lara]

Paul: all good points. And yes, a good teacher (which I am) will discuss societal norms across the span of American Literature. That's why we read a great deal of different genres from different times and discuss how they reflect what was going on in America at the time. What I don't get about this thread is the idea that we get one book only to choose. In my classes we read about six novels, a ton of essays, poetry and plays as well.

[Míceál]

Interesting interpretation. I didn't understand the thread to mean "we get one book only to choose." I thought it was about dropping Gatsby from a host of other required readings and replacing it with something else.

[Susan]

I believe Gatsby IS relevant!!! The American dream is always worth the discussion, particularly when the means to attaining that dream is a part of the dialog. Money..beautiful women, extramarital affairs, hot cars...since when is that not relevant? And how much should a man sacrifice for a woman?

I can't imagine not including Gatsby.

[Lynsey]

What a fascinating topic! I personally did not come to appreciate contemporary YA literature until I took a course as an undergraduate; I'm going to take another YA course this semester, just to fulfill some credit requirements for my graduate degree, and I'm looking forward to it.

When considering an appropriate "replacement" (or perhaps bridge?) to "The Great Gatsby," you have to consider the themes of the text. The greed and hypocrisy of society, as depicted in the book, is one thing that I would focus on. What are some texts today that involve greed as an important theme, or hypocritical society or social class practices? "The Hunger Games" comes to mind for me, and I think would be especially effective with reluctant readers because of its popularity. Greed, social class, and some romantic aspects, this text has it. Perhaps for students who are already familiar with that series, another dystopian-themed novel would be appropriate for addressing those topics. I've found, with students at the middle and high school levels, that these sort of texts (like the short story "Harrison Bergeron") can open up discussion about these topics in our society today, moreso than "The Great Gatsby", I think.

Now, another major theme of the text would be pursuit of the American dream, and I think that, in keeping curriculum relevant with today's society, works representing minority cultures would be appropriate in meeting that end. Works by Sherman Alexie come to mind ("The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian" is especially accessible). In a search for such texts, a novel-in-verse called "The Good Braider" by Terry Farish stuck out to me, for its look at a Sudanese refugee immigrant.

My point being, there are endless numbers of quality, contemporary texts that will address the oh-so-important themes of the classics that we cherish (but that some of today's students may not connect with so well); those quality texts could even allow the classics to be more accessible to students. Sorry to go on and on, this is a topic that I've been reflecting on a lot in my studies and curriculum planning.

[Ifrah]

Ashby wrote: ".....But the love issue relates to all ages. it just needs to be understood. If a student doesn't understand it THEN THE TEACHER is suppose to lead them to it. Help them find it."

A teacher cannot help 100 students "find it." They have to attempt a general way of helping the class as a whole understand the beauty of the book but it never works because different students require different approaches and methods in order to get to the same goal.

[Claire]

Monty J wrote: "Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students.

If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well writ..."

Monty:
I am currently entering my freshman year of high school, and I read the Outsiders for required 7th grade reading, and also in 7th grade by choice I read To Kill a Mockingbird. In 8th grade we were required to read Of Mice and Men and since the movie was coming out, I decided to read the Great Gatsby, and I enjoyed it. Now, this is said with no offense meant but I disagree with the books you say are for older kids.
(In all grades there are immature students, but at least don't make the mature students suffer)

[Lenora]

Bryan wrote: "Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever written if it were on the school required reading list.

Seriously, what does "age-relevant" have to do with it? Kids will either like it or t..."

here here

[Ellen]

I don't think a book not being 'age-relevant' to people necessarily stops them from liking it. Some of my favorite books were written way before I was born.

[Jack]

Lynsey wrote: "What a fascinating topic! I personally did not come to appreciate contemporary YA literature until I took a course as an undergraduate; I'm going to take another YA course this semester, just to fu..."

I love all the books you recommended, especially the Hunger Games. I don't doubt that students would enjoy the books, but I definitely don't think that they could replace Gatsby or any other classic. Most high schoolers have already seen movies for popular books like the Hunger Games, and those with any interest in reading have most likely read it already. So many students would be rereading books in class, something I know i hated to do as a student because it felt like a waste of time.

If students don't like to read, we should be encouraging classics even more. It is even less likely that students would pick up classics on their own, and highly improbable that they would put any thought or analytical thinking into the stories even if they were to read them. High school should be a place where students have to go a bit outside of their comfort zone and read things they wouldnt have picked up by themselves. Personally I read so many novels and plays that I would have refused to touch in my free time and I am happier and a better reader because of it.

Picking up the modern, super popular books does not introduce students to authors and stories they havent heard of and it doesnt give them anything challenging.

This isn't to say schools shouldnt teach any new books, but there is definitely a reason they should teach classics.

(And to be honest, there is so much more thought and analyzing you can put into Gatsby than the Hunger Games. I love the hunger games, but it is not for school)

[Lilac]

Well, in some ways the Hunger Games could be for school. Rather than studying the writing in it students could study the themes. Lots of teens read the Hunger Games for fun and they enjoy it for the plot and action and stuff, but if they were told to look at the society then they could find lots of interesting and educational stuff, which completely relates to today. The Hunger Games could be read and studied for a short amount of time and then the class could move on to a book like 1984 or another classic dystopian book. Reading the Hunger Games (or another good YA dystopian book that's less popular) first would make students more eager to read the dystopian classics and they'd enjoy them much more. So in a way books like that can be very useful in a classroom, at least to lead on to other books.

[Jack]

There definitely are themes that you could explore in the Hunger Games and it definitely might lead kids into enjoying litterature more. I just think that students would benefit more from reading about Frederick Douglas's life than reading the Hunger Games and Harry Potter. Older books give you more knowledge that you wouldnt be able to glean from modern culture.

[Lilac]

I think it should really be a mix of old and new but I don't think students should be studying Harry Potter at 14+ either way. That series is more suitable to 8-12 year olds and could get them interested in reading books in general. The Hunger Games maybe for 12-15 year olds. After that students should definitely be reading more advanced books.

[Lynsey]

Jack wrote: "Lynsey wrote: "What a fascinating topic! I personally did not come to appreciate contemporary YA literature until I took a course as an undergraduate; I'm going to take another YA course this semes..."

Oh, I definitely agree with you, and would much rather advocate bridging to the classics, rather than completely replacing them. Ideally, I'd want to see those other texts being introduced at perhaps the middle levels, when students should begin analyzing literature in meaningful ways, then carrying that over into high school, where they'll be armed to meet those classics like "Gatsby." It may be something for a high school teacher to consider if, say, he/she is faced with students who are reluctant readers, and who may require those more accessible texts and more scaffolding. I'd much rather take the time to do that, and prepare the students to really appreciate the classics, then to present it to them "because that's what they're SUPPOSED to read," because those reluctant readers will be the ones who DON'T read it at all. I've seen it enough already in schools. Let's help our students to see the classics like "Gatsby" as the important texts that they are, rather than just another chore to try to get out of.

[Geoffrey]

I recall in my teens my best friend, (attending another high school) had to write a paper comparing BRAVE NEW WORLD and 1984. I would suggest the same for GG. BABBIT by Sinclair Lewis and GG in the same course. Perhaps even more appropriate in a college course about the AMERICAN DREAM IN LITERATURE or some such similar topic.

[David]

Paul wrote: "How about keeping Gatsby and pairing it with Nelson DeMille's 'Gold Coast'? A good teacher could have a lot of good 'then and now' discussions about societal norms at essentially the same location..."

I agree with you about Gold Coast, to me it addresses the same themes as Gatsby, but too me it has a better plot and the characters are well developed.

[JA]

Wow, a lot of sound and fury - with NO viable response for the original question: With what would we replace GG on the high school reading list?

For those that have no choice but to replace it, you good readers should be able to come up with SOMETHING that would help. Please?

[Ashby]

Cry the Beloved Country?

[Monty J]

Hannah wrote: " Dr. Michael wrote: "Who are you talking to there Hannah? I didn't bash Gatsby. It's one of my favorite books."

The original comment. Saying Gatsby isn't relevant for high schoolers doesn't quite ..."

Perhaps, now that the novel's homosexual references are becoming widely accepted and discussed, there is a growing movement to have it removed from school reading lists because of those implications. This would be mostly in the bible belt, I suppose.

[Paul]

"If we could the replace"? Well, since I disagree with your premise, allow me to criticize your lack of grammar skills. Thinking back on what I was required to read (Death be not Proud, zzzzz) Gatsby was one of the better books I was expected to read. Again, posting on a site full of literate people, check your grammar.

[Anthony]

Why replace it? My only problem is with the required reading concept. English teachers do more harm to reading than any other group of people. never had a grade school of college professor who didnt ruin every perfectly good book we studied!

[Anthony]

Paul wrote: ""If we could the replace"? Well, since I disagree with your premise, allow me to criticize your lack of grammar skills. Thinking back on what I was required to read (Death be not Proud, zzzzz) Gats..."
yeah, we dont want no riifraff running the halls.... GRammar police ougght to get over themselves. they do great harm to the English language (probably in other languages, too, only i dont see that.)

[Eileen]

Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students.

If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what makes a book relevant to an audience. You can hardly use 'age' as an indicator for if a book is relevant to a person or not.

On the subject of replacing it with something more 'modern', even that more modern thing would have to be 'older'; a book reaches relevance when it holds up over a period of years and retains relevant themes. Themes are universal, and as such, regardless of the context, relatable. The majority of books mentioned as possible replacements are either 'older' and already in the canon, or not old enough nor thematically deep enough to be used as a focus text for a class.

One might consider that most books in the canon are there because people do still like them and relate to them and find them relevant, or they wouldn't still be taught.

It's on the teacher to help students find a connection between the text and their own lives, and to encourage students to seek out more texts, be they classics or otherwise. The other half of that is the regional culture. That can be broad (southeastern insert state or bundeslaender or so on here) or focused (just this school district). If the culture of the region, the way students are being socialized to feel about reading in their homes or communities, is negative, then they are less inclined to be open to what they are reading. There's no one perfect place where all kids like what they have to read in school, but there are places where it is enjoyed more than others.

Someone mentioned earlier about R+J 'glorifying suicide' - that depends on how it's taught. I don't teach R+J like a romance. I teach it like a roast and the kids enjoy pointing out the overwrought nature of their own tendencies towards 'love'. It's hardly glorification if you point out that they were stupid and that the people around them were stupid.

To that end, Gatsby also relies on how people teach it, as well as how the community has been socialized to react to reading. If a teacher knows their community, one can specialize the teaching of the book to those people and at least reach a few more than usual. What worked with my students was focusing on social class and economic scale, and cliques. The moment the kids were able to recognize that the characters aren't good people, they were a lot more interested in talking about and reading the book - just like with R+J, kids love a good roast and it tricks them into enjoying and learning things they might otherwise pass on.

[Sonia]

Bryan wrote: "Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever written if it were on the school required reading list.

Seriously, what does "age-relevant" have to do with it? Kids will either like it or th..."

I have to say that I hated and didn't understand the book when I read it in high school, but when I gave it another chance in college, I enjoyed it way more and even read other Fitzgerald novels.

[MN]

Really enjoying this discussion :) I loathed Gatsby at around 15 and found it completely irrelevant to my life in almost every way - on the other hand I was a middle class English girl with a thing about horses and sci fi so maybe not surprising. And on a third hand, I remember feeling cheated because the writing was so good and yet the subject matter was so awful. I think I read it because it was recommended to me by an adult; I don't think it was required reading at school. Anyway, now I need to read Twilight.

[Christy]

Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students.

If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."

Huh? Not age relevant? Excessive wealth…out of touch behavior…false personas ?? Absolutely relatable to all those attending High school…besides which the writing is what they should be exposed to.