The Great Gatsby
discussion
If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list...
Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever written if it were on the school required reading list.Seriously, what does "age-relevant" have to do with it? Kids will either like it or they won't. Is Shakespeare "age-relevant" to today's high-school students? Does it matter? We should be attempting to elevate the level of reading amongst youth, and that means exposing them to classics.
Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students. If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."
Gatsby isn't even close to age relevant for sophomores. The issues are adult, as are the characters. But it could be assigned to seniors and the more mature juniors.
To Kill a Mockingbird (youthful heroine, racism)
The Outsiders (youthful characters & issues)
The Red Pony (youthful hero & issues)
The Pearl (simplicity, vlaues)
Of Mice and Men (simplicity, racism)
The Godfather?It's not great literature, but if you just want to get the kids to read and talk about their reading, why not?
Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students. If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."
Your entire comment makes no sense to me. Literacy is always relevant. If they're too damn feeble to hack the challenge of F. Scott Fitzgerald then, either re-institute 18th century maritime flogging (whip the imbeciles til red welts criss-cross their backs) or, flunk them.
Name an age-relevant book for this era? How about 'Thomas the Train'..
Feliks wrote: "Name an age-relevant book for this era? How about 'Thomas the Train'.."Made me spew my coffee. Good one.
The Catcher In The Rye? Holden is 17 and a lot of teenagers could relate to him. Plus it's a classic novel.
Cynthia wrote: "The Catcher In The Rye? Holden is 17 and a lot of teenagers could relate to him. Plus it's a classic novel."I agree, also included in this category, The Bell Jar and Lord of Flies.
Yes, The Catcher in the Rye and Lord of the Flies, both of which have the common theme of the vulnerability of innocence/children.But both books are relatively advanced and should be thoroughly discussed before assignment.
Feliks wrote: "Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students. If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well writ..."
Dear, interestingly enough that's the kind of snobbish attitude that keeps students away from experiencing "reading" as a pleasurable and thought provoking activity.
I was whipped into reading Gatsby, and frankly speaking, that experience made me fear and dislike "classics" for many years. I had this fear that my inability to resonate with the character is somehow implied "illiteracy" on my part.
Thinking back, could it be that at 16, I simply do not care about rich, bored, white male destroying their lives?
Shouldn't "literacy" means more than training students to write half-ass analysis on literary devices? I always thought, literacy is a tool that allows humans to connect across time and space though the use of language. If other books could accomplish the same goal better, why not use it?
I've first read the Great Gatsby when I was in 8th grade, and rather loved it. I really wouldn't say the matter is about the age... because even back than, I did care about the rich, bored, white male. I felt pity for Gatsby with the vain end he had met, etc.Perhaps it's just the environment I was grown in, but I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, and I knew many students who truly appreciated them. Some came to love it as well.
Even though there are many teens out there who claims Twilight to be the worst book... if there are easier books for teens to read, that would be some Printz-awarded YAs. However, when would they ever get lessons on books such as The Great Gatsby, or Catcher in the Rye if not during the high school years? Easy YAs with valuable lessons are good, but they fit "middle school", not "high school".
It is rather cruel to say this, but we are talking about "education", not "fun". I find the question very similar to a question regarding math... Where the heck do we use calculus, parabolas, etc., in our daily life? Yes, there are certain jobs that require it... and aren't there certain jobs that require the mind-training of Literature as well?
What truly is the "goal"?
Bryan wrote: "Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever written if it were on the school required reading list.Seriously, what does "age-relevant" have to do with it? Kids will either like it or t..."
Relevance makes it easier for readers to connect to the central theme. I liked Romeo and Juliet in freshman year, at 15 I thought all the forbidden love and at first sight was very romantic. Then as I get older, I realized that selfish destructive love is well... destructive. At different ages you appreciate different themes, and connects with the story at different levels.
To inspire the young to read, to appreciate the power of written words, to see that there is a greater world out there, outside of their own existence, that could be reached though reading, shouldn't that be the goal?
There are many wonderfully written contemporary novels, and even Fantasy and Science Fiction out there, that I wished we could have read for class.
Why not require the students to read books the likes "Do Android Dream of Electric Sheep?" It deals with so many modern themes from slavery, racism, use technology, ethics, religion, environmental issues ,all the way to how we should define humanity.
Maybe a book dealing with abortion? Gender issues? Too controversial? how about drug abuse, gangs and inner city poverty?
Bobh from the other thread suggested, "Monster: Autobiography of a gang member in LA" and "Crank", I havn't read either, from the description alone, both would inspire more enthusiasm than Gatsby.
None of those issues are too controversial. In all honesty, isn't Literature all about controversy? However, if we do read autobiography or such, they are easy enough for one to realize/think on his/hers own. American Born Chinese, a graphic novel that had been awarded with Printz was gone through in my 9th grade curriculum in a short 2 weeks or so. Did it not have "good themes", relevant to the age? Of course it had. There were themes such as "fitting in", stereotypes, being an individual, and friendship. We might say that at different ages we appreciate different themes... but perhaps a point of view we garner at a age so young is as valuable as what we garner years later. After all, classics are books that would give you various interpretations, new point of views, etc over several readings. Maybe it's not the book itself that is the problem, but the way schools treat the book. Would it have been better if one had discussions regarding it, rather than essays? When I had discussions in school, one of the main goals was not only to dig deeper through the context level, but to connect it to ourselves (current world). We might ask ourselves if the theme (ex. Lord of the Flies-- young people's innocence is not as strong as we idealistically portray), and would compare it to Columbine gun shooting. The discussions were not "forced", because the teacher remained silent. And it was definitely allowed for students to disagree, or even say why (ex. The Great Gatsby) is not relevant to themselves-- as long as they provided reasons.
Regardless of whether or not this book is a class reading assignment or not my daughter and I will read this together when she is old enough. I was twelve the first time I read 'Gatsby', so I will probably introduce this work to her around that same age. Isn't the whole point of reading comprehension to enable the individual to self-educate outside of the confines of formal education?
There should be a book somewhere that deals with a boy who falls in love with a girl who is out of his league, yeah that's it...that would be relevant to teenagers. And then this boy would spend all his life working to make himself acceptable to this girl. And then, just as he is able to meet her at her own level, there is a rival who doesn't play fair. Yeah, there should be a book like that. That would be relevant.
And there should be a lot of drinking parties in that book...that would be relevant too.
yeah, why would we ever want to expose high school students to what many call "THE great american novel"?are you worried about whether high schoolers can comprehend and digest the great gatsby, or are you simply worried about pandering to them? the whole point is to GUIDE the students, correct?
many high school students are not going to read ANYTHING they are assigned, no matter what it is. i was one of them. i think that i actually read 3 of the books i was assigned in high school. i wasnt a bad student, i just figured out that i could do just as well in class by reading the cliff notes. the great gatsby is one of the books that i DID read. now, i will readily admit that i did not grasp it as fully as i do today, but, there was something about fitzgeralds writing that drew me in. part of high school english class, is learning HOW to write, not just comprehension and interpretation, correct? i cant think of many authors that have such simple beauty to their writing? can you?
i find it strange that you bring up romeo and juliet. does ANY high school student REALLY understand shakespeare when they read it on their own? how many adults even understand it? or was it just the theme of star-crossed love that resonated with you at 15? were you simply in awe of the interpretations that your teacher told you to find in the writing? you found it romantic that a boy and girl would say pretty words to each other, even if you didnt understand what any of it meant? you found it romantic, that so many people should die because of a high school crush?
I had this book for my English class my junior year (last year) and i loved this book. The people who say twilight is the best book ever, is a group of hopeless fanatics who are scared of relationships so they read about relationships that can not happen. Most teenagers take to books like that because it is relevant, but it also appeals to the reader. I personally have not, and will not, read the twilight series. Books people read are totally based upon what they like, author, genre, publisher, cover, etc. The Great Gatsby sparks a conversation ever time it is brought up in class or anywhere else, trust me, i am a teenager, teens like Gatsby cause they happen to be able to relate what happens now to what happens in the book.
Steven wrote: "I had this book for my English class my junior year (last year) and i loved this book. The people who say twilight is the best book ever, is a group of hopeless fanatics who are scared of relations..."well said steven....if you enjoyed the great gatsby, might i suggest reading another book by fitzgerald-"this side of paradise". ive probably read the great gatsby 10+ times, but "this side of paradise" probably had a much bigger impact on me.
T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, and I knew many students who truly appreciated them. Some came to love it as well."There will always be exceptional students, but skewing the curricula in their favor risks denying an education to the majority. There are accelerated learning classes for advanced students.
Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, and I knew many st..."since when are the lord of the flies, catcher in the rye, and the great gatsby "accelerated" reading? where exactly do you scale back from there? the hardy boys? if kids dont read these books until college, when do you think they will be ready for tolstoy, or dostoevsky? by their thirties?
its really surprising to me, that the Great Gatsby, out of all the books taught in high school is the one that should somehow be on the chopping block here.how many people actually understood Shakespeare when they were in high school? how many people were really able to read it and form their own interpretations? NOT what the teachers told them the themes were, their OWN interpretations? nobody i knew. how relatable was The Odyssey, to my life in high school? if a kid doesnt want to read about a "rich white guys", how then, is Jane Austen any better? is it somehow more interesting to read about the troubles of some rich white girls in england a couple hundred years ago? something tells me diane wouldnt want to replace Pride and Prejudice, though.
the fact is, Fitzgerald is arguably the foremost american writer, and the Great Gatsby is his foremost novel. how do you NOT teach it?
Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, and I knew many st..."Perhaps I shouldn't have said "perfectly capable". To be an adult, I say that a child needs to be placed in a situation where they feel pressure of real life. It is the experience that provides them the blocks to build/grow. Why cannot the books provide them with something similar?
Education for majority... It is always a question of trusting the students or not. I refuse to believe that all high school students in this world are partying, mindless, and stupid.
Why is age relevance the main issue? It's about the themes involved in the literary work. In addition, why would Twilight be a better alternative? There is nothing great about it, furthermore how else could the book be relatable other than age. Perhaps the rash loving of someone but there are better books that show that.
I refuse to believe that all high school students in this world are partying, mindless, and stupid. Yes. You are so right. But they ALL know peers who are. My post above is thinly veiled reference to things that are in the book. Gatsby is the boy who falls in love with a girl who is 'too good for him'. He tries too hard to get her and is destroyed. This is a high school theme. This is a theme in Gatsby. Students who party as well as those who don't can see how abuse of alcohol can damage relationships and critical thinking from some of the scenes as well.
My point is this: As teachers, rather than eliminate a book because we see it as irrelevant, we should be doing our own homework and finding ways to make connections with the students. We should be teaching books that can be understood at several levels of complexity, not all of which may be understood by our students yet.
Lara wrote: "I refuse to believe that all high school students in this world are partying, mindless, and stupid. Yes. You are so right. But they ALL know peers who are. My post above is thinly veiled refe..."
True, there is no need for the students to be crammed with all levels of complexity... that requires more life experience at the first place (which is rather irrelevant to if a person is mature or not). Just considering the nature of Literature... there are some lessons that just do not strike until much much older.
There are probably more ways than mere student-led discussion that would do the trick. (Though I really loved the discussions.)
Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, an..."Face reality, 98% of the population will never get near Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky.
Monty J wrote: "Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th gr..."so who cares? is that it? 98% of the population is never gonna use algebra in their daily lives, let alone calculus. so should we just stick with multiplication and division? how many people really need to know how to dissect a frog?
lets just dumb it all down. thats the answer. education is boring, so lets just teach the absolute basics.
Luke wrote: "its really surprising to me, that the Great Gatsby, out of all the books taught in high school is the one that should somehow be on the chopping block here.how many people actually understood Sha..."
Luke wrote: "yeah, why would we ever want to expose high school students to what many call "THE great american novel"?
are you worried about whether high schoolers can comprehend and digest the great gatsby, o..."
haha...Yep, I loved Pride and Prejudice. It was hilarious. But I read it two years later, at 18. By that time I was mature enough to recognize and appreciate the irony and the witty writing.
Luke wrote: "yeah, why would we ever want to expose high school students to what many call "THE great american novel"?are you worried about whether high schoolers can comprehend and digest the great gatsby, o..."
Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, an..."
Well, I had appreciated Shakespeare's writing and thought the turn of phrase was beautiful,did I understand fully? probably not, but did I enjoy it, oh yeah.
And yes, just as young girls today thought turning into blood-sucking undead is "the best thing ever", at 15, the idea of dying for love was "romantic". Defying parents is another thing that was understandable, gang killing, maybe not so much for me, but definitely real for certain groups in my school.
I actually read all of the assigned reading, I am too much of a chicken to use cliff notes.
By the way, to the good people who loved Gatsby,I mean no offense. I don't hate the book, and I never say it wasn't "good" or "great". But as someone commented in the " worse book thread", the main reason people hate the book was because they had to read it in school.
Luke wrote: "lets just dumb it all down. thats the answer. education is boring, so lets just teach the absolute basics."You must be listening to a voice in your head because you aren't paying attention to what I wrote.
I'll try again.
An effective curriculum is tailored to the students. If you hit them with material they can't relate to, it will discourage instead of inspiring them. By all means, teach advanced material, but teach it to the right students.
Cynthia wrote: "The Catcher In The Rye? Holden is 17 and a lot of teenagers could relate to him. Plus it's a classic novel."I hated that book and so did my teenage sons, one of whom is a avid reader
Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" during my 9th grade years, and I knew many st..."We had maybe 30 out of 400 in my graduation class that got into advanced English. Forget about reading Gatsby, I was shocked when I found out many many of my peers WATCHED videos in class in place of reading Romeo and Juliet. We weren't that far apart back in Freshman years, but 3 years later, its like we went to totally different high schools.
30/400, 30 were the minority, the dying race.
Lara wrote: "I refuse to believe that all high school students in this world are partying, mindless, and stupid. Yes. You are so right. But they ALL know peers who are. My post above is thinly veiled refe..."
I'd loved to have you as my teacher. No offense to my old high school teacher though, they were great.
Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "T wrote: "I do see sophomores perfectly capable of understanding "adult matters". I had the chance to read "Lord of the Flies" and "Catcher in the Rye" ..."No you don't dumb it down...you try to make the process of learning interesting and relevant. Instead of preaching to an increasingly small population of those who "cared", by encouraging more if not the majority of student population in the discussion, maybe....
It would have to be Justin Bieber: First Step 2 Forever: My Story. But only as an audiobook. Reading is hard.
T wrote: "None of those issues are too controversial. In all honesty, isn't Literature all about controversy? However, if we do read autobiography or such, they are easy enough for one to realize/think on hi..."It is a great tale with multiple layers of meaning, but to treat it as required reading for all 16 even 17 year olds is maybe forcing it? Especially when you cannot guarantee the instructor's method. If we were to have a book that too has 1. good writing, 2. multiple layers of relevance (so teachers won't be bored) 3. easily connectable by even the students with lower level of "interpretive skills"
Then, maybe more people today would be reading Gatsby for fun.
Diane wrote: "T wrote: "None of those issues are too controversial. In all honesty, isn't Literature all about controversy? However, if we do read autobiography or such, they are easy enough for one to realize/t..."you are missing the point, that to MOST students, ANY assigned reading is forced reading. the purpose of education is to guide students and help broaden their horizons. you hope that they enjoy the reading, and you try to make it as enjoyable as possible, but at the end of the day, its still homework.
i think you also seem to miss an obvious point, that many people today DO read gatsby for fun.
Steven wrote: "I had this book for my English class my junior year (last year) and i loved this book. The people who say twilight is the best book ever, is a group of hopeless fanatics who are scared of relations..."Good for you, glad you enjoy it ( ^ ^). Sadly the Twilight people and 50 shades of gray people are the ones driving sales, at the rate literary appreciation is declining, there will be no more Great American Writing by the time you are my age. Instead of alienating the masses, maybe finding ways to include the them in intelligent discussion will be better for the survival of art and beauty.
Kev wrote: "It would have to be Justin Bieber: First Step 2 Forever: My Story. But only as an audiobook. Reading is hard."
Oh god, there is a book, seriously?
I'm backing Luke on this one. There is always going to be a segment of the population that won't like any book they're assigned in school. I thought that all the books I got assigned in school were very good and quite relevant, but I found that this varied amongst my peers depending on individual personalities and who they were taught by. The difference between a large group of schoolkids enjoying a class book and them not enjoying the same book is often the enthusiasm and approachability of the teacher. Granted, I'm not American and so never had to read Gatsby in school, but having read it fairly recently I will aver that it is an exceptionally well-written book in that it can be enjoyed on multiple levels, and even from a reletively superficial standpoint.The thing that I think many people commenting on this thread are overlooking is that the spirit of rebellion is as strong in today's youth as it has ever been, and many will not like a book simply because many other people do.
Monty J wrote: An effective curriculum is tailored to the students. If you hit them with material they can't relate to, it will discourage instead of inspiring them"Beautifully put, I wish I could write as clearly as you.
Diane wrote: "Beautifully put, I wish I coul..."Thanks. :)
(Now if I can just hurry up and sell some of it.)
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Gatsby story end on the note that certain things are unattainable? Along the lines of, doesn't matter what you do, you can get rich, but you'll never be "in", no one would love you, no one would care if you die. 50% of Americans live in poverty today,unemployment rate is hovering near the double digits. We don't exactly live in the roaring 20's where young people can easily get lost in the reach for wealth.
"Requiring" a average student today (college fund disappeared,childhood home foreclosed, parents laid off) to read Gatsby would be ______________.
Maybe something from the Great Depression era would be more appropriate. The Grapes of Wrath??
Diane wrote: "Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Gatsby story end on the note that certain things are unattainable? Along the lines of, doesn't matter what you do, you can get rich, but you'll never be "in", ..."You've put it well.
I don't think you can beat Of Mice and Men as a book for young adults. It's Depression era, short, well written, and dramatic. Bullying is one of the themes, which is also highly relevant today. It's got sex, violence, racism, social struggle.
When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The Great Gatsby was the class favorite. It's a little complex but it is easy enough for high school students to understand it. I absolutely fell in love with that book and so did the majority of my classmates. At the end of the year my teacher made us bookmarks with the green light quote written on it and I still have it today.
Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The Great Gatsby was the class favorite. It's a ..."Wow, you had a great teacher. Was it an advanced class? Catcher is a rough ride for a lot of high schoolers.
Monty J wrote: "Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The Great Gatsby was the class fav..."No, it was an average English class and it was my teacher's first year of teaching. She really put all of her energy into the novels but I only loved Gatsby. The Crucible was good and I did not like The Catcher in the Rye.
wooo, I am itching to read "of Mice and Men" now. How come we didn't have this book as required reading? My school must have sucked major time. Found a interesting article too.
Who, what, why: Why do children study Of Mice and Men?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12...
"true draw of the novella lies in its accessibility to students across a range of academic abilities"
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If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then maybe young readers would stop saying "Twilight" is best book ever published.
What would you suggest as replacement?