Miévillians discussion
This topic is about
Embassytown
Embassytown Discussion
>
SECTION 2: Part One: Income
date
newest »
newest »
Thanks for the reply.now i think i can immerse into the book.
another thing is ambassadors are so interesting. their naming and their ability to conceive a single thought through two voices.
A simile is, to the hosts, exactly what it is to us: a comparison. Unlike metaphor, which states that a thing is something else, a simile is only "like" something.Avice says (and everybody around her seems to agree) that she is a simile, but really she is just an example that the Hosts can use in a simile. So Avice is "the girl who ate what was given her", and the Hosts can use that memory as an example when comparing something that one of the Ariekei do to what Avice did years ago.
Why the Hosts needed non-Ariekei (mostly human, but iirc there were a few non-human similes) is not so clear, but I think it's tied into Language. When one's expression is so dictated by one's language, it's hard to even have new thoughts. By using other species as similes, the Hosts would set the basic parameters of the simile, but the "actor" would always introduce random concepts that the Hosts had not expected.
Part of the reason, I'd imagine, why it has to be a non-Ariekei acting out the simile, is that Ariekei themselves cannot lie; and acting out or speaking a simile is in a way, a lie, because you know, you are saying one thing is like another thing which is not literally true.It seems that the biggest thing that the Ariekei lack, is imagination. Like Nataliya mentions, they apparently struggle to make a mental leap away from a very literal interpretation of 'the truth'.
I don't see it that way. A simile is not a lie, and that's the core of the book; something may be like something else, and that's literally true, because the two are not identical, only alike. Sometimes one might say something is "like" and it might be debatable, and that seems to be what the Ariekei are looking for. As they say that things are like the girl who ate what was given her, we're shown some examples (I no longer have a copy to quote) that may be stretching a bit, but there has to be some similarity, or they're unable to make the comparison.
I agree it's not a lie in the formal sense of a lie, because the phrase "is like" in a simile is kind of open to interpretation; I mean, I can say a car is like an aeroplane in that it transports people, and it is not a lie because I am not saying a car is a plane, but one needs to have at least some imagination to make a link where metaphors and simile's are concerned; you need to be able to separate out the parts that are alike even if the entire whole of the two things that are compared is not alike.Then again, I can say a plane is like a bird, and people with imagination will see that there one refers to the fact that they both can fly, although there are clearly other aspects that are not alike; as in a bird is a living organic thing and you cannot transport people inside of it.
Exactly. So the Ariekei definitely have problems with imagination, and their fumbles at using the similes show that, but the one thing they do seem to be able to imagine is how if they work at their similes they might become able to lie.Imagination is inherently tied to being able to lie, as to "imagine" is to think of something that isn't actually true (though you might be able to make it so). You can't be creative without thinking of things that aren't true.
Yeah, creativity would be linked in with "being able to lie" in that sense, wouldn't it?
Yes. More than one author of fiction has called it "lying for profit".
what happened in The Festival of Lies?is she participated in it?
the chapter ended with -
"They're saying: 'This?'" he told me. "'This is the one?'"
I see this thread is live. I finished Embassytown last month. It was not my favorite Mieville novel, and like some passages in other of his books, it seemed to lack some editing. I really loved the language aspect but was not too thrilled with some basic narrative strategies. For example, an editor might have said the characters are talking through the plot.The question I have for you, is this good or bad? I read a lengthy article about editing by Michael Kandel, and it changed the way I think about Mieville.
"Americans tend to do more editing than the British, which means that the author might be resentful or even throw a temper tantrum, or that the author, receiving the editor's suggestions, might be inspired to rewrite parts or all of the book." - Michael Kandel
A friend of a friend recently got published by Random House in New york City, but this newbie author's book was eviscerated by the editors. I'm of the opinion that if someone like Mieville has much greater editorial freedom, then what we see on the page is the real deal.
Here's the full article on editing by Kandel for anyone wanting to geek out on it: http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Kandel-C...
"Lack some editing"? Would you expand on that, please? What specifically seems to be underedited? I tend to think that any time I suspect somebody failed to edit Miéville, I've missed an important point. He never says anything he doesn't mean. I find the whole idea, that Americans do more editing than the British, laughable, unless it's an underhanded way of saying that American authors need more editing.
I keep intending to read that article, but every time I start with it, I get distracted. ..but it's weekend! So I'll hopefully get to read it soon. :P
"Many British publishers have no functioning editors"?!Sounds implausible to me, though I have no inside knowledge.
Interesting article, Salem - and I love that it's featured on Ursula K. Le Guin's site (that woman is unquestionably amazing). I liked the little bit about a Jose Saramago and the underappreciation of his work. Nice.
I am not sure if this already was said but I think - mostly humbly - the reason for the Hosts only being able to understand words said by two people at once is maybe because their brains need not just sound waves to form something that is conceptually information to them. It may be some quite evolved vision system, so advanced to capture nuances so that an individual is not represented or understood solely by one of the senses. The smiles are like a 3D extrapolation of emoticons. I recall receiving messages from friends which mean just humor but I could not say they were irony or not because they lacked something like a smile representation.
I think you're right. Gesture is certainly significantly involved (have you got to the point where they're crippling themselves--and others?)
When the new ambassador arrives and is introduced to the Hosts?
Daniel wrote: "When the new ambassador arrives and is introduced to the Hosts?"No, it must be well after that.
Oh, in order not to be able to converse in the usual way, do you mean, Derek?@Daniel- you are right, i think their communication is sort of multidimensional- or should i rather say multi-sensorial.
Traveller wrote: "Oh, in order not to be able to converse in the usual way, do you mean, Derek?"Yes. I'm trying not to spoil anything for Daniel (or anyone else), because I'm not sure where he is in the book and I'm fairly sure this stuff comes up quite a bit later (but I don't have a copy to check).
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Oh, in order not to be able to converse in the usual way, do you mean, Derek?"Yes. I'm trying not to spoil anything for Daniel (or anyone else), because I'm not sure where he is..."
Yup, when the new ambassador arrives is still quite a bit before that.
Miévillians
Books mentioned in this topic
Century Rain (other topics)Silently and Very Fast (other topics)
Silently and Very Fast (other topics)
As for your questions:
- The language of the Hosts is very literal and is unique in this way. They can only say what already exists, what is already true, thus making them unable to lie - as the Embassytown saying 'Say it like a Host' reflects. The words don't just have mean g; they ARE meaning - and you will come across more discussions on that as you continue with this book.
However, despite Language not merely reflecting thought but being thought, in some way the Ariekei do sense a need to express things that have not yet happened, that do not yet exist (some have a very interesting motive for it, as you will see later). In order to express the things they really have no way to even consciously conceive, they create similes, creating strange things and situations using objects and humans to have something to compare their yet unexpressed thoughts to and thus to create a way to express things that otherwise cannot be expressed. Avice found herself in such a situation once - and the eventual consequences are amazingly unexpected.