Embassytown Discussion: SECTION 2: Part One: Income

[Ian]

Do you think that, if we were all totally frank with each other, people would warn us that we'd put on weight (an extra kilo), rather than comment when it was too late?

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Ian wrote: "Do you think that, if we were all totally frank with each other, people would warn us that we'd put on weight (an extra kilo), rather than comment when it was too late?"

I assume you're asking me. My point was that if you're open to someone else's mind, you know that immediately. If it has to be filtered through Language, then perhaps not. Surely, I'm not the only person who thinks on meeting someone I haven't seen for a while: "is she pregnant, or just putting on weight?", "wasn't his forehead shorter last time?" and I know my mother thinks "haven't you got a real job yet?" whenever she sees me or hears from me.

And I think that that silent but always present pressure would shape us, and not to the better (well, physically, we might be better shaped...). It leads to everybody trying to fit a norm.

[Nataliya]

Ian wrote: "Do you think that, if we were all totally frank with each other, people would warn us that we'd put on weight (an extra kilo), rather than comment when it was too late?"

I think we are usually well aware when we put on weight; the reason we ask others for their opinion usually seems to be for the feel-good validation purposes.

But stepping away from the weight discussion, sometimes I wish we could just be frank with each other so the question of whether people like you or just pretend out of convention while planning to stab you in the back. However, honesty did not help Surl-tesh-echer, so I guess some things while being different would remain the same.

[Traveller]

Nataliya wrote: "But stepping away from the weight discussion, sometimes I wish we could just be frank with each other so the question of whether people like you or just pretend out of convention while planning to stab you in the back. "

Sure, a person pretending to be nice while actually disembowelling you behind your back, is the extreme of social 'dishonesty' and hypocricy, but this site, for instance, has demonstrated to me that being too forthcoming with your honesty most definitely does not pay, not when you want to keep up good relations with people. :P So, the closer you get to a person, ironicallly, it seems that the more you have to lie...

Anyway, I suspect that part of what Mieville meant with the... hmm, ok, this might turn into a spoiler. Let me comment on a later thread...

[Ian]

Derek wrote: "And I think that that silent but always present pressure would shape us, and not to the better (well, physically, we might be better shaped...). It leads to everybody trying to fit a norm."

I can understand this view, but I wonder whether the norm would be different and more accepting of diversity, if we were all more frank.

Self-censorship is an equal threat to diversity.

[Ian]

Nataliya wrote: "I think we are usually well aware when we put on weight; the reason we ask others for their opinion usually seems to be for the feel-good validation purposes."

I wonder whether validation is behind the "likes" on GR and Facebook.

And how do people feel when you realise that someone just likes without reading or actually liking?

Doesn't this defeat the purpose?

Nataliya wrote: "sometimes I wish we could just be frank with each other so the question of whether people like you or just pretend out of convention while planning to stab you in the back."

I think it's worse when people stab you in the back, while they're standing in front of you pretending to be your friend.

[Ian]

Nataliya wrote: "sometimes I wish we could just be frank with each other so the question of whether people like you or just pretend out of convention while planning to stab you in the back."

I guess the question is: do people really want us to be honest? Or do they just want us to validate their existing view?

People seem to be less open to constructive criticism from a friend.

Is it because they want only validation or because they suspect the motives of the other person?

Either way, it seems like a self-esteem issue.

Should we be wary of relying on strangers for our self-esteem?

[Nataliya]

Ian wrote: "I guess the question is: do people really want us to be honest? Or do they just want us to validate their existing view?"

The latter option, most of the time. In 'Embassytown', however, there would be a unique situation of inability to do the latter if that was not the truth as perceived by the speaker - that's what I find so fascinating.

Ian wrote: "Either way, it seems like a self-esteem issue.

Should we be wary of relying on strangers for our self-esteem?"

I think we should be wary of that, but there's not that much we can do about it. Self-esteem ideally would rely on internal factors rather than external (and that does happen - you do see people boasting excellent self-esteem despite not having much external validation (and sometimes that can be detrimental - they can come across as being full of themselves for no reason). But, and I think it's at least partially hard-wired into us, we like being liked, we like being appreciated (therefore the Facebook and GR buttons saying 'like' instead of many other words that could have been used), so invariably external validation ends up playing a huge role.

Ok, now time for me to go and do some medical procedures, and return to this discussion in a few hours.

[Traveller]

Ian wrote: "I guess the question is: do people really want us to be honest? Or do they just want us to validate their existing view?

People seem to be less open to constructive criticism from a friend.

Is it because they want only validation or because they suspect the motives of the other person?
[...] Should we be wary of relying on strangers for our self-esteem?

.."

I suspect that when it comes to closer friends, we expect honesty to be careful and kind, and even so, some people seem simply unable to handle it. It is true however, that if we cannot accept criticism kindly given, that we are actually hindering our own growth.

To use the earlier example, if we expect people to tell us we look thin when we actually look fat, aren't we sort of defying the object of knowing if we do or not?

However, I suspect that probably the answer lies in how to deliver truths if we think it is really necessary. I think that even if we do deliver unpleasant truths, and especially then, can't we perhaps still achieve the goal of alerting our friend when we temper the truth with kindness?

[Ian]

Nataliya wrote: "we like being liked, we like being appreciated (therefore the Facebook and GR buttons saying 'like' instead of many other words that could have been used), so invariably external validation ends up playing a huge role."

I miss people initiating a conversation through a personal comment, as opposed to a simple "like".

But I also feel a bit ambivalent about school reports that presumably pick comments on a student from an approved comment (whether euphemistic or complimentary) list.

I'm from the old-fashioned "tell me what you really feel" school.

[Ian]

Traveller wrote: "However, I suspect that probably the answer lies in how to deliver truths if we think it is really necessary. I think that even if we do deliver unpleasant truths, and especially then, can't we perhaps still achieve the goal of alerting our friend when we temper the truth with kindness?"

Beautifully said.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Ian wrote: "And how do people feel when you realise that someone just likes without reading or actually liking?

Doesn't this defeat the purpose?"

Well... no. I had never been involved in any other significant social media site, so when I first noticed one particular follower seemed to "like" everything I wrote, I was concerned. Then I realized that I was often seeing other interesting posts only because my friends were "liking" them. Which changed the whole experience for me - he obviously thought enough of my posts to follow me - so by liking them, whether he agrees with them all, or even reads them, is just his way of bringing me to the attention of his own circle. I'm fine with that.

[Ian]

Good point, Derek, though I'd prefer someone to both read and promote.

[Traveller]

..and now that we've been sold to Amazon, who knows what will happen? *sigh*

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

nothing good, I'm sure. I don't hate Amazon. I just don't want to see more "Kindle integration" (as promised).

[Traveller]

I don't mind that, but i do mind that our content that we provided is to become their property without our prior consent. Though i suppose that was included in the small print when we joined GR...

[Traveller]

Also, i do NOT want to have to log in here via Amazon.

[Nataliya]

Traveller wrote: "..and now that we've been sold to Amazon, who knows what will happen? *sigh*"

As long as the environment here does not get taken over by blatant advertising of Amazon products, reviews censorship/removal/mandatory integration to Amazon product pages, hopefully it will be okay. Time will tell...

[Traveller]

Once again, I don't mind advertisements. That's what ad blockers are for. But this>>> reviews censorship/removal/<<< will be a big no-no for me.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Traveller wrote: "I don't mind that, but i do mind that our content that we provided is to become their property without our prior consent. Though i suppose that was included in the small print when we joined GR..."

No, it wasn't. In fact, our reviews were explicitly stated to belong to us. Amazon can't legally change that. (Though they could change the terms so that reviews post- some date would belong to them, as they claim on their own site).

But the fact that Amazon censors reviews worries me.

[Traveller]

Yes, and they weigh the favorable reviews to show on top. There's already a lot of rivalry here on GR- can you imagine if we all start churning out 5 star glowing reviews (ok, I for one, won't) that will appear world-wide - think what that will do to the standard of literary appreciation around the world.. :P

[Nataliya]

Traveller wrote: "...think what that will do to the standard of literary appreciation around the world.. :P "

Oh no! The literary landscape as a result of that will be dominated with poorly written pseudo-erotica and poorly written dystopian paranormal romance young adult books! The horror!

Oh, wait...

[Traveller]

Hmmm. I hear you.
Still, it would enhance and magnify the effect... :P

[Traveller]

We might end up having ONLY 50 Shades fan-fic boosted to Amazon status to read...

[Cecily]

How many of our untruths are really to spare someone else's feelings? (Probably fewer than we like to think.)

[Traveller]

Cecily wrote: "How many of our untruths are really to spare someone else's feelings? (Probably fewer than we like to think.)"

I order to have the other person keep liking us? Ack! Which reminds me that I was going to revisit all of the member's reviews now that I'd finally done with the book!

[Cecily]

No, not necessarily to be liked, but to avoid causing upset.

[Traveller]

Cecily wrote: "No, not necessarily to be liked, but to avoid causing upset."

You are so perfectly correct. ..and maybe, like we've said regarding the Ariekei vs our human culture, we humans have started to expect a friend to be euphemistic with the truth, simply as a form of "politesse". Many of us eschew it, I know, but if we do, we pay the consequences with having to deal with ruffled reactions.

[Ian]

Cecily wrote: "How many of our untruths are really to spare someone else's feelings? (Probably fewer than we like to think.)"

Sometimes the truth comes into conflict with harmony, just as freedom can conflict with fraternity.

[Cecily]

I was thinking more of the way we sometimes like to deceive ourselves (or maybe it's just me!): justifying euphemisms and outright untruths as being for someone else's benefit, when really it may be for saving our own embarrassment or just having an easy life.

[Ian]

I understood that, but sometimes I feel that I can be too honest for my own good, or the good of a broader community. Not everybody wants to hear somebody speak their mind. Discretion is the better part of valour.

[Traveller]

Yes. I think people want to avoid a 'scene' so they just hunker down and pretend for the sake of 'peace'.

Is this right or is it wrong, morally speaking? I suppose the judgement will differ from person to person.

[Annie]

Living in culture of secret lies creates dis-ease.

[Ian]

It's all secrecy and no privacy.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Annie wrote: "Living in culture of secret lies creates dis-ease."

I certainly agree - but confess to being perfectly willing to lie to avoid a momentary unpleasantness.

[Nataliya]

Annie wrote: "Living in culture of secret lies creates dis-ease."

Nicely put, Annie!

Cecily wrote: "I was thinking more of the way we sometimes like to deceive ourselves (or maybe it's just me!): justifying euphemisms and outright untruths as being for someone else's benefit, when really it may be for saving our own embarrassment or just having an easy life."

I think self-deception is definitely a huge part of our inner (and outer) lives.

[Allen]

Traveller wrote: "I think that even if we do deliver unpleasant truths, and especially then, can't we perhaps still achieve the goal of alerting our friend when we temper the truth with kindness?"

I truly think so. We call it 'southern manners' here.

Although in our house, we just skip it all and go straight to ... "Tell me this is a cool hat, cause I like it and want to wear it" or the equivalent one on weight/feeling pretty :)

[Allen]

Derek wrote: "Annie wrote: "Living in culture of secret lies creates dis-ease."

I certainly agree - but confess to being perfectly willing to lie to avoid a momentary unpleasantness."

Agreed, on both counts. In fact, in some social situations I'm willing to agree, or at least stay silent, to avoid that unpleasantness - how many of us don't express our true opinion for fear of upsetting the whole group?

Not sure if it's exactly self-deception, but it's something I've been trying to change recently. For instance, finally posting my support of marriage equality even though some of my neighbors now shun us. Makes me wonder about the relationship between intolerance and language?

Also why I found Ian's keen observation about CM putting Language into the middle of a diplomatic situation so intriguing ... it's suddenly not just the truth and lie, the cut and turn, but the ripple effect of communications to consider.

Also, apologies for my lag time with discussions - I regret missing some good back and forth. It seems I've been jinxed these last two books. This time it was home computer issues. Thankfully, I have a good work connection, and don't have to make up any similes about using it!

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Don't apologize for being late - at least two people have chimed in since I finished. I, for one, will be coming back to these discussions as long as someone has something to add. That's one of the great things about this format of discussion - while our memories all fade as time goes by, we can usually still get something from the discussion even if somebody decides to add to it next year. It's hard to do that with the neighborhood book group!

"... posting my support of marriage equality ..."

Right. I think we all have to set boundaries to what we are prepared to lie, or just keep silent, about. Sure, there's only one answer to "does this top make me look fat?" and on the other end, nobody is really going to lie about physical constants (yes, water is wet). In my community, marriage equality is fairly easy to support. Probably the hardest public stand I've ever had to take was over aboriginal rights (too many people believe "we stole their resources, fair and square..."). Taking a public stand over something like that is not something I ever want to do, and I'd far rather say nothing than stir the pot.

[Allen]

Thanks Derek. I agree about boundaries, but sometimes think I have set too many and need to take more stands. For some reason, this book has awakened that desire, and in some ways I blame Avice - is it that she was so true to herself?

On the other hand, it's just easier to move to a community that parallels your own beliefs. But not all of us can withstand the immer ...

[Traveller]

Interestingly this conversation bounces and echoes into a perfect example on a later thread of exactly what has been said above. :)

I agree with Derek, I'll keep coming back to these discussions as long as anybody is interested in posting in them!

[Nataliya]

Allen wrote: "Thanks Derek. I agree about boundaries, but sometimes think I have set too many and need to take more stands. For some reason, this book has awakened that desire, and in some ways I blame Avice - i..."

I'm lucky enough to live in a community that supports most of my beliefs - but if I didn't, I just hope I'd be able to be one of the brave ones who dares to take a stand.

[Allen]

Nataliya wrote: "I'm lucky enough to live in a community that supports most of my beliefs - but if I didn't, I just hope I'd be able to be one of the brave ones who dares to take a stand"

I'm getting braver ... thanks to some good reading (Mieville) and especially thanks to my counseling service, i.e., you fine folks here!

[Nataliya]

Allen wrote: "I'm getting braver ... thanks to some good reading (Mieville) and especially thanks to my counseling service, i.e., you fine folks here!"

I applaud you, Allen. It's not always easy to stick up for your beliefs - but it can make the world a better place to live.

[Cecily]

Allen wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "I'm lucky enough to live in a community that supports most of my beliefs - but if I didn't, I just hope I'd be able to be one of the brave ones who dares to take a stand"

I'm getting braver ... thanks to some good reading (Mieville) and especially thanks to my counseling service, i.e., you fine folks here"

Well done, Allen. Mind you, I wouldn't go too far - especially on the net. There are some places that are wonderful for discussion, and others where it is still better to know when to keep quiet.

[Traveller]

I just say it anyway and take the punishment... :P But yeah, not always pleasant consequences.

Still, that is the prickly choice one has to make...silence can imply consensus, so if you don't speak out, you are by implication condoning.

..and for me speaking up and taking the flak is often just... well, that's just the way I've always been, to my own detriment, no doubt.

[Cecily]

Silence can imply consensus, but sadly, some people are beyond persuasion, and they are the ones most inclined to resort to less pleasant tactics. Sometimes it's best to withdraw, imo.

[Traveller]

Cecily wrote: "Silence can imply consensus, but sadly, some people are beyond persuasion, and they are the ones most inclined to resort to less pleasant tactics. Sometimes it's best to withdraw, imo."

Sadly you are correct with that, I suppose... though often such people can SEEM rational at first, but yeah, I know what you mean.

[Nivas]

I am not only reading the book and also following this discussion at same time. but there are some gaps in mind those made me reread the same section twice. still gaps are empty.

can anyone please answer me the following questions?

What is simile according to 'Hosts'?

why Hosts need Avice to create a simile?


thanks in advance.

thanks @Nataliya for introducing China Mieville.

[Traveller]

Welcome Srinivas!
Phew, those are some weighty questions. It's been a while since we read this, so I for one will have to refresh myself again regarding the material, but will do so, and will be back in a while; but I'm sure Nataliya will also weigh in on this question soon.

She did do a great job with Embassytown, didn't she?