Miévillians discussion
This topic is about
Embassytown
Embassytown Discussion
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SECTION 1: Proem: The Immerser (0.1-0.3)
Nataliya wrote: "Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"After a bit of searching I decided to take the simplest path and look at the cover.
Ahem, here's the artist's rendition of the Host. The small f..."
For some reason, I sort of got the Host look, especially the wings part. Then let the rest of the image remain fuzzy. But the illustration help with Erhsul and the ambassadors.
I often find that in sci-fi, women are largely absent, or when present, the only thing that makes you realise they are female is either their name, or the fact that they're portrayed as bimbo side-kicks. I think Mieville is to be congratulated for writing significant and believable female characters.
Nataliya wrote: "Andrea wrote: "2. The childhood memory thing - yes, I also remember my childhood as isolated flashes of events - I suspect that is the norm which begs the question of what and how CM remembers his ..."What a pity that I've only manged to start reading this now;- I've been missing a wonderful discussion, I see. Will do my best to try and catch up. Re the memory thing- yes, I too, (and everyone I know), remember our childhoods in an achronological "bits and pieces" fashion.
Robert wrote: "
The hosts' names are sounded with special effects so that they do not sound like any familiar words within any language I've ever heard." That's interesting Robert! The audiobook definitely sounds like something worth getting.
Ian wrote: "At some point I would like to initiate a discussion about the female voice in Embassytown.How do you feel about any author writing with the voice of another gender? Can it ever be authentic or co..."
I also think Mieville does women very well. In PSS, although it ws not in first person, I think he portrayed the artistic type female and the journalist type female very well, and in The Scar, the female scholar.
To me, Avice appears like a perfectly normal tomboy type, a bit like Lyra in His Dark Materials, another instance of a male writing a female very convincingly.
Robert wrote: "Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"My whole challenge with Mieville is that we are, or at least I am never clear about a great deal. I don't know if other readers have to work as h..."
You should definitely avoid Gene Wolfe, Robert. Okay, Wolfe is a lot easier to read on the surface, since his hidden themes are layered into the text more subtly; but when I started reading Embassytown, I could for the life of me, be reading a text written by Gene Wolfe.
In fact I see a few influences, even a bit of Peake.(Mieville has, since you mention Le Guin, named her, Peake and Wolfe among quite a few others in his list of influences.)
Cecily wrote: "I really don't like that illustration (which is NOT a complaint about posting it). It's not at all how I imagine any of it. So I'm now wondering if my reading is adrift from Mieville's writing, or ..."I don't see Avice as wearing a 20-21st century Terrestrial male jacket at all, so there is my first gripe already. I picture her more with a kind of Star-trek-y like space-suity type costume, maybe wine-colored with flat, black boots, but not too unfeminine. ..and, since she is the active, tomboy-ish type, i imagine her having a nice, lithe figure too. Not at all blocky, but fluid, not angular.
I also imagine the world clearer, less muddy. ..but i suspect i have not read enough yet to form a clear picture.
Traveller wrote: "I picture her more with a kind of Star-trek-y like space-suity type costume, maybe wine-colored with flat, black boots, but not too unfeminine"Oh no, Tav, not the Star Trek-y like costume! Those things look like tracksuits.
Nataliya wrote: "Oh no, Tav, not the Star Trek-y like costume! Those things look like tracksuits.."
Well, they did become a bit better over time... :P
-but that was just while she was immersing, of course, you see. I do think she's quite a girly-girl too, who likes to wear dresses, because she described herself wearing a dress at least once.
Traveller wrote: "...I do think she's quite a girly-girl too, who likes to wear dresses, because she described herself wearing a dress at least once"Well, I've worn a dress at least once, but I wouldn't describe myself as a girly-girl. ;)
Cecily wrote: "Well, I've worn a dress at least once, but I wouldn't describe myself as a girly-girl. ;)"
Ah, I thought dresses were just for girls. Well now, you have gone and taken away my last claim to being at least a bit of a girly-girl. Unfortunately I don't like high-heeled shoes, so that won't help..- does a love for pretty shoes count? Even if they are comfortable?
Traveller wrote: "Cecily wrote: "Well, I've worn a dress at least once, but I wouldn't describe myself as a girly-girl. ;)"
Ah, I thought dresses were just for girls. Well now, you have gone and taken away my las..."
I'd describe myself as mostly tomboyish (or at least definitely not girly) - and even I've been known to occasionally wear a dress.
Trav, I think the love for pretty shoes will count for girliness a bit, even if many men go for good-looking shoes, too.
I used to at least make some attempt at being girly; used to wear a bit of make-up and so on, which i don't do anymore because i hate the artificiality- I tried putting some on again the other day, and I look rather frightening to myself with it on...-not like me, you know?But i do wear dresses, (not all the time, of course) and when I say pretty shoes, i mean really pretty, like with intricate plaited patterns like filigree and so forth.
..but maybe one shouldn't make gender identity such a narrow thing.
Our little family were discussing this coincidentally just last night; Mr Trav had apparently, during swimming practice, been chatting with a geneticist specializing in gender assignation; and apparently, there are an amazing array of variations on syndromes such as Klinefelter syndrome, XYY syndrome, Congenital adrenal hyperplasia, etc. You can have individuals with a penis, breasts and a womb, or, a female vulva and breasts but sans womb, a Y chromosome but female characteristics (she mentioned the athlete Caster Semenya as possibly being an example of this. (The results of Semenya's gender tests have apparently been kept private)).
We discussed a child the kids have at school, of uncertain gender, who feels like a boy and wants to be a boy, but whose parents insisted that she should be female, resulting in her identifying herself as a "lesbian" and a "she-male". I argued (as i always do) very strongly for the case that in such cases the CHILD should be given the choice- after all, it's their life, and they have to live with it.
..and as per usual, i decried the fact that society still enforces such strict gender identities onto people that a person had to feel 'confused' if they found themselves on either side of the gender divide. It should not matter!, sayeth i, but, it seems that society's biases run deep.
Of course, the outcome of the discussion was that my daughter declared that she was very happy to be female, since that gave her the choice of exactly how she wanted to express herself. She can play with dollies and cry when she wants to, and she can be a fearsome fighter with sword and shield if she chooses that, too, or wear pink dresses or boy's clothes. Not that I had ever forced any gender-stereotyping onto my son, but sadly Mr Trav and society out there, has still had the effect to make him feel he has to behave in certain set ways to "be a man".
Much has been done for women in the past 100 years or so. Time that we start looking at the freedom of men as well. If you are a man reading this, and going: "Phfffft!", consider if that response was not maybe one conditioned into your psyche long, long ago when you were 2 or 3 years old by someone who said to you: "Boys don't do that! Boys don't behave like that! You don't want to be a GIRL, do you?"
It sounds as if you're doing a good job, Traveller.As you say, there has been much progress, to the point when people are more surprised (and shocked) at a father who doesn't push the pram/buggy and change nappies than one who does. And yet, if a small pretends to do those things, many people still experience a visceral horror and try to persuade him to play with something with wheels, or even a toy weapon.
There is so much I could say in this conversation as regards the direction it is going. But right now I will just say I love the ideas expressed here.... And so does my wife!
Traveller wrote: "...but maybe one shouldn't make gender identity such a narrow thing. "I so agree with you, Trav! And it seems that you are doing a very nice job raising your daughter to eventually be a great young woman!
what an interesting discussion. my two cents worth is that society is in a state of constant and unpredictable change, and that gender issues are part of that. ie all we can be certain of is that change will occur. thats what I love about the best scifi - it explores a myriad of possibilities.
Andrea wrote: "my two cents worth is that society is in a state of constant and unpredictable change, and that gender issues are part of that. ie all we can be certain of is that change will occur."This seems very much in line with what ultimately ends up happening in 'Embassytown', Andrea!
Time that we start looking at the freedom of men as well. If you are a man reading this, and going: "Phfffft!", consider if that response was not maybe one conditioned into your psyche long, long ago when you were 2 or 3 years old by someone who said to you: "Boys don't do that! Boys don't behave like that! You don't want to be a GIRL, do you?" I didn't go phfffft, even if I like saying it sometimes :) Fortunately, while I heard those same "boys don't do that" lectures, I somehow ended up with what I consider the best of both perceived gender worlds ... like hiking and outdoor boy stuff, but never followed pro sports, love reading and long talks, hate having more than one or two pairs of shoes (fill in any other stereotype here). The wife and I define our relationship in terms other than gender, mostly. Interestingly enough, we've tried hard not to impose any gender beliefs to our daughter, and may have gone a little out of our way (reading her Todd Parr books), but she's usually the one who ends up saying "girls don't do that."
As Andrea says, "constant and unpredictable change."
Allen wrote: "The wife and I define our relationship in terms other than gender, mostly. "I applaud you two! That's quite admirable.
Nataliya wrote: "Allen wrote: "The wife and I define our relationship in terms other than gender, mostly. "I applaud you two! That's quite admirable."
Haha, I don't quite know how to respond to this exchange, given the review I've just posted.
Ian wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Allen wrote: "The wife and I define our relationship in terms other than gender, mostly. "I applaud you two! That's quite admirable."
Haha, I don't quite know how to respond to ..."
Just quote your own review ;)
Haha, maybe it's the relative weight any of us would place on "mostly"?
Ian wrote: "Haha, maybe it's the relative weight any of us would place on "mostly"?"Aptly noted. Subjectivity in interpretation does appear to be crucial here, doesn't it?
Nataliya wrote: "Ian wrote: "Haha, maybe it's the relative weight any of us would place on "mostly"?"Aptly noted. Subjectivity in interpretation does appear to be crucial here, doesn't it?"
Especially when it comes to how the Subject regards the Object.
Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"Well, well. I knew Ubiq was ringing bells, and I didn't think it was just Dick's Ubik - though it's Miéville, so maybe it is. I just subscribed to BBC Radio's "Drama of the Week podcast" and found Ubykh (mentioned but no longer available) described as "Only one person in the world speaks Ubykh, and he's very, very old. Swedish academic, Ole, sets off to Turkey to meet him." So I went to wikipedia and found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubykh_la.... If you look at the map showing the small region where Ubykh was once spoken, it looks suspiciously like Sochi, Russia, which I have heard mention of once or twice recently.
Derek wrote: "Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"Well, well. I knew Ubiq was ringing bells, and I didn't think it was just Dick's Ubik - though it's Miéville, so maybe it is. I just s..."
Wow, Derek, this is awesome! If this was what inspired the Ubiq part here, it's overflowing with brilliance. A dying (or now for all intents and purposes, I guess) language inspiring the intergalactic lingua franca - well, I can just see CM going for that!
Now that is very interesting, thanks, Derek! Yes, trust CM! I've noticed that he loves to place little "Easter eggs" (hidden surprises) in his works.Heh, and its definitely a linguist who wrote that article, eh? So, what happened to the Ubykh people?
YouTube has a "The Last Ubykh Lesson from Tevfik Esenç" the last Ubykh speaker, and the first comment says "We Russians are not responsible for Ubykh disappearing. We were in war with them, later they emigrated to Turkey, where in 1910-s were attacked by dashnaks (Armenian nationalists-gangsters) in Anatolian civil war. England and France made these two wars."Right. So they were victims of ethnic cleansing in two or three different nations. Same old story, I'm afraid.
Oh, ok, nevermind, I see. And they simply unlearned their language, the few that remained. That's rather sad..
It is, but it's a terribly common story, too. I suspect dozens of languages have been lost in my own country (Canada), alone. Back in the early 1900s, Canada's position on non-majority languages was little different from Russia's, Turkey's or Armenia's. Our official position has changed (as has Turkey's) but the support system for educating people in Anishinaabe, for instance, is probably not much better than Turkey's for Ubykh.
I suppose if a nation is very small, it becomes a matter of economy of scale when you have to print school books and so on.
Derek wrote: "Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"Well, well. I knew Ubiq was ringing bells, and I didn't think it was just Dick's Ubik - though it's Miéville, so maybe it is..."
Good thought. We have a copy of that (my husband's) but I haven't read it; perhaps I should?
I have no idea if Ubik could have any relevance - I'm sure I read it decades ago, but don't recall any details. I don't recall anything that could resonate here.
I like pronouncing the main characters as ahv-VYS and SY-lee just because its a lie. There goes my 4 year self again!
Annie wrote: "I like pronouncing the main characters as ahv-VYS and SY-lee just because its a lie. There goes my 4 year self again!"I have mentally switched to ah-VEES, but Scile will forever remain SY-lee. Who is CM to tell me how his characters' names should be pronounced! Sheesh. ;)
Scaly Scile. ;)
Nataliya wrote: "Ian wrote: "Haha, maybe it's the relative weight any of us would place on "mostly"?"Aptly noted. Subjectivity in interpretation does appear to be crucial here, doesn't it?"
Amazing what I miss when my computer explodes ... It was perfectly clear in my mind :) I could say I was deliberately pointing out the vagueness of language, but really I meant that while we're both comfortable exploring reality on either side of the chromosome, we're both defined by gender at times. Currently, I'm the breadwinner and she's the stay at home mom, for instance. We're just not locked into that way of thinking forever. And it doesn't topple the dominoes down the line, meaning I don't make all the decisions and she doesn't do all the cooking.
Allen wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Ian wrote: "We're just not locked into that way of thinking forever. And it doesn't topple the dominoes down the line, meaning I don't make all the decisions and she doesn't do all the cooking. ..."
Cool. I tend to have rather unconventional 'divisions of labor' as well. I tend to do the tech stuff because I don't mind the bother and probably have more of a background with most of the stuff. And while I don't "do" woodwork at all, (ugh, can't stand sawdust) I often end up doing DIY stuff especially in the garden.
In return, I hate doing dishes, and while I did all the poopy diaper changing, I got all the dishes done for me. :D So yeah, I like the freedom of non-traditional divisions of labor.
Traveller wrote: "In return, I hate doing dishes, and while I did all the poopy diaper changing, I got all the dishes done for me. :D So yeah, I like the freedom of non-traditional divisions of labor."I'm a dishes man myself :) ... What I really wish for is freedom to divide the labor in a societal setting. Why shouldn't I be able to trade with my wife? She could do my job for a while (she may not have the credentials for it but she has the skills). And I could use a change of scenery.
Guess that's why I liked the "shiftparents" angle in Embassytown. Seemed to be on the fringe of communism somewhat - I'll leave that to those here with more socio-political knowledge of the world - but it did make sense in the book's universe. And I've read a few more sci-fi books with that type of "share the work" mentality (currently 2312).
Makes sense for CM, too, given his public persona, just wondering how much priority he gave this issue. When this thread started, I thought the narrator's gender more trivial to the entire book. Now I'm not so sure. I'm beginning to see subtle points throughout.
Allen wrote: "I'm a dishes man myself :) ... What I really wish for is freedom to divide the labor in a societal setting. Why shouldn't I be able to trade with my wife? She could do my job for a while (she may not have the credentials for it but she has the skills). And I could use a change of scenery. "Been there, doing that. I took a contract here in Nova Scotia (where my wife is from) and when the job she'd loved started going downhill, I told her to retire and join me. She stayed retired for 8 years before starting to do the odd contract - including one with the guy I was working for. He switched jobs, hired her on full time, and now she's working (doing exactly what I do) and my month-to-month contract has finally dried up after 12 years. So I'm semi-retired (I'm looking for something, honest!) And I'm a dishes man...
Miéville is a Marxist, so it's no surprise if a little communism sneaks in to the stories!
Allen wrote: "...Guess that's why I liked the "shiftparents" angle in Embassytown. Seemed to be on the fringe of communism somewhat - I'll leave that to those here with more socio-political knowledge of the world - but it did make sense in the book's universe."It would be in line with communist ideas - and I do find the idea fascinating. I remember at the beginning I thought Avice was brought up in an orphanage, and then I realized that it's just how things were done in Embassytown. It seems that the Ariekei had the communal care for the young ones as well - maybe that's what the 'shiftparents' structure was meant to resemble? The influence of one society subtly rubbing off on another?
Also, it did remind me of Ursula Le Guin's The Dispossessed - the 'ambiguous utopia' of the anarchist society.
Derek wrote: "...I knew Ubiq was ringing bells, and I didn't think it was just Dick's Ubik - though it's Miéville, so maybe it is...."Finished one book.
Found Ubik.
Guess what my next read is?
Derek wrote: "Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"Well, well. I knew Ubiq was ringing bells, and I didn't think it was just Dick's Ubik - though it's Miéville, so maybe it is...."
I just finished reading Ubik (http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...). A fascinating plot, with lots of humour as well as sci-fi twists, but other than the similarity of the name/word, I see no parallels with Embassytown - which is not to say that it isn't (too many negatives?) a subtle nod from CM to PKD.
Haha, is this where we advertise our reviews now? Did you have to pay for a lot?
Ian wrote: "Haha, is this where we advertise our reviews now? Did you have to pay for a lot?"Well, I made some salted caramel brownies today, which I'd be happy to share...
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the recipe for.
Damn, if I can't sink my teeth into the real thing, then the recipe will have to suffice.
Seriously?Although actually, I don't think they were as nice (or as quick to make) as my usual ones. Or would you like two recipes? Or three (my cookies are best)?
Tssk tssk, I see I shall have to censor some of the comments above for the unhealthy fare they promote. Cookies and brownies are so bad for the teeth and the cholesterol levels! Not to mention Caramel ones......
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Though I might leave all the promotions in place in exchange for some chocolate brownies. ;) O:-)
Miévillians
Books mentioned in this topic
Planet of Adventure: City of the Chasch / Servants of the Wankh / The Dirdir / The Pnume (other topics)The Demon Princes (other topics)
The Dying Earth (other topics)
Nopalgarth (other topics)
The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jo Nesbø (other topics)Andrea Camilleri (other topics)
Todd Parr (other topics)
Iain M. Banks (other topics)
How do you feel about any author writing with the voice of another gender? Can it ever be authentic or co..."
I'm in line with the collective thought that, when it comes to narrators, gender shouldn't matter. That we all tell a story somewhat the same. And I think CM always wants us to remember that as beings in the "manchmal" we should worry less about such trivial things as gender, time, place in the universe, sexual preference, etc.
But I didn't really think about it until you brought it up. In the context of the genre, though, I'm wondering now if I didn't notice the gender because of the science fiction ... much like a computer or a spaceship is genderless? (The Enterprise, Kirk's "she," is excepted from this.)
Looking forward to finally getting back into discussions with my fellow Mievillians, and planning to draft some answers to the initial questions soon! (Hope nobody's cringing.)