Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: The Twelve Tribes of Hattie
Rebecca wrote: "I am reading Floyd again and it just leaves me baffled. I didn't see it coming or a connection of the parade with the encounter between he and Lafayette till I reread.Are people ready to go on? The next grouping would be a lot so maybe we group Ruthie and Ella?"
i think i have to disagree with you on the first chapter, rebecca. hattie comes across like she adores those babies. she seems very soft and optimistic, not the "walking like a train coming," hardened woman she becomes later.
i love the way mathis deals with floyd's homosexuality. there's nothing to see coming. it's what he likes. like walking into a coffee shop and ordering a slice of lemon merengue pie. one doesn't see that coming; one doesn't say, "jeez, i totally expected him to order apple pie." it's the nature of desire. it doesn't announce itself, necessarily. i'm happy she depicted it like this.
i'm ready to move on when everyone else is. tonight i'll resume reading it!
jo wrote: "hattie comes across like she adores those babies. she seems very soft and optimistic"Yes, jo, that is exactly where I was going (I just forgot to say it) when I said we don't know how Hattie feels about her grown children, we only know how she feels about her babies. In the first chapter, she is giggling, she is tickling her babies under their chin, she is kissing Jubilee's fist and helping her wipe her own tears. (I don't even recognize this version of Hattie anymore...) Even this line: "Her hands were quick and capable even as Hattie wept and pleaded." shows that her actions are spilling with emotion. I get a sense of tenderness about her feelings toward them.
This is in stark contrast to how Floyd sees her, how Six sees her, and even how Lawrence sees her with Ruthie. I had said that was because she was just going thru the motions, but I am revising that based on Chapter 5 and will post when the group starts discussing it.
I also loved your comments about Floyd, jo, that is well said. Although I would almost call his obsession with womanizing a premonition in hindsight. :) It was why I didn't like him at first, but after the meetup it seemed clear to me how his female pursuits were an attempt to blot out his true feelings. Ironically, his heterosexual shenanigans were the "evidence". Rebecca, did you catch the comment about the "big buck of a gas station attendant" that he messed around with on his travels before the town with Darla? It was so subtle I did a double-take when I read that because I thought I imagined it. Ms. Mathis might have put that in there to prepare you!
For the next chapters, I guess you are thinking 4 or 5 days for each group? In that case, Ruthie/Ella sounds good, there is a lot in there. Then maybe Alice/Billups/Franklin and then Bell/Cassie/Sala? I'm up for whatever, starting Chapter 8 now...
Michael wrote: "... I did come up with [an acronym] for Jubilee, though. The way she smiled and reached out to her brother broke my heart. I still have not recovered from that chapter:Joyous, Unified Binary; Innocent Love Entreating; Extinguished"
Michael, I think your acronym is great! I also was touched by Jubilee's reaching out to her brother. I think Jubilee and Philadelphia may be my favorites so far (I have read up through the Alice & Billups chapter), because even though their story is so sad, the love is so much more evident on the surface in that chapter. You have to look harder to find it in some of the other chapters!
Good point about the love Sue. Michael a very thoughtful job. I like it a lot. Love your comment about your wife. Intresting that you noticed her walk. I agree that Hattie won't take no sh*t. I did miss that subtle buck reference. I will take a lot look at it again.
i missed the buck reference too! well done. read Alice and Billups last night. devastating. hey maybe at some point we can address the issue raised by many of whether this is really a novel, given that it's chopped up in a series of disconnected vignettes that could very well stand alone. i'm going to tip my hand and say that to me it's definitely a novel, if the author wants to call it this way. also, thinking of it as a novel does something to the activity of reading it. we connect what we might otherwise not bother to connect. we look for connections...
The photo on the dresser too seems to show he is uncomfortable.
just for the record, there are men who enjoy sex with men and women. or intimacy with one and sex with the other. or... etc.
Rebecca wrote: "The photo on the dresser too seems to show he is uncomfortable."The hayseed farmer, I forgot about that. Good call!
And good point, jo. We aren't told for sure that he is not also obsessed with women, but his sex life is so reckless I was hoping it was a mask for something and not his true calling. Maybe I am judging too much. Although at the end Darla says she's not sure he really wanted her in the first place, and he doesn't react like he disagrees.
jo wrote: "i missed the buck reference too! well done. read Alice and Billups last night. devastating. hey maybe at some point we can address the issue raised by many of whether this is really a novel, give..."
Yeah, the hits just keep coming.
I can see how it is both a novel and a collection. The stories stand on their own, if I read one in a short story collection I wouldn't feel cheated, I would feel moved. But my ongoing discovery of Hattie and August is the novel part for me, trying to figure out who they are from different viewpoints and through time.
As a novel, I also want to tie the book back to its Bible reference about the Twelve Tribes, how her children are being sent out in the world like scouts to find safe passage. It's been pretty rough terrain so far, though. It would be interesting to hear who people think have "broken through" and who have "fallen to the wayside". For example, I think maybe Billups found a way through, but Alice was lost. Meanwhile, Floyd's a puzzle. He seems to have success in his music but not in his personal life. Maybe this is one way of surviving?
My favorite quote so far is " God doesn't come to sit on the porch and sip lemonade. He comes to take over"
Where are we as a group? Rebecca? I finished the book last night, but I took notes on the chapters and would love to chime in on any discussions.
At the very least, I will add my thoughts from Chapter 4 and 5, Ruthie and Ella, to my ongoing Hattie analysis (full disclosure: I update my theory a bit at the end of the book):
In Chapter 5 we hear Hattie's internal thoughts again, and it shows a deep tenderness with Ella. She tries to memorize every detail of her baby, and captures butterflies for her. It has made me rethink her lack of emotional connection. Sure it probably took her a while to regroup after the twins, which was why Floyd thought she was so emotionless growing up, but I wonder if the truth of it is she always feels passionately toward her children, but since the twins' deaths she refuses to express it directly for fear of heartbreak. The emotion is always there underneath, and so it comes out when she thinks she is losing them (Six, and now Ella) and she has nothing to lose by expressing her attachment and her grief. When she has them safe, she doesn't show her tenderness (like Lawrence observed her with Ruthie in Chapter 4), and even when they ask for it, she pushes them away like she does with Bell when she tells her to go back to bed instead of comforting her after Hattie returns from Baltimore. Maybe that was why Six was surprised at her tears. It reminds me of family members who are never around except they are faithfully present at funerals. They have the connection, they honor it, but most of the time they don't have the capacity or comfort level to show it. Only in extreme circumstances.
Anyone else seeing Hattie like that?
On a side note: any updates/disappointments from jo on the domestic violence situation in the household?
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I hope that people can post for Ruthie and Ella. I am not quite sure where are people are at. I would love to know. I hope people are feeling free to post and comment. Would love to hear your thoughts jo on whether you think this is a novel or shortstory?
Columbus wrote: "If you're in the Atlanta area, The Georgia Center for the Book welcomes Ayana Mathis to First Baptist Church in Decatur on Thursday, March 21st @ 7pm. Here's more info: http://www.georgiacenterf..."
Can you believe that this event and the Octavia E. Butler Celebration of the Fantastic Arts are on the same day and same time? Unfair!
Michael wrote: "Where are we as a group? Rebecca? I finished the book last night, but I took notes on the chapters and would love to chime in on any discussions.
At the very least, I will add my thoughts from..."
Great points, Michael!
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It is unfair...it's like feast or famine lately. Ehhh!
SixI am behind in my reread. I just finished up Six because I wanted to read it again and so glad I did, I also liked this section because there is a lot of things going on.
Intresting things linking Floyd with Cassie. The. Six with Franklin and Billups but the accident involves Cassie and Bell. I didn't pick up on this my first read so whe I get tot those chapters I will look for tie ins.
I also like the lemonade quote. Thank you for posting that.
It's also I treating that Six is used to voice sentiments about the North and whites. Why is he the character to do this? How do you feel about his comments about the North accurate?
I also think we can rescind the feeling of Hattie. Because in Six she is weeping. Crying. Pleading during the acciden with Six. Bell and Cassie are involve. Does thers blame affect them later on in the story/ life? I still doubt in the first chapter. I think Hattie's sentiment evolves.
The way Coral looks after praying with Six and the next day.
Avery being a self reflection of Six. Avery was every bad thing that ever was. How he beats him like the scalding water, pitying glances, cruelty from classmates. Reminds me of our bullying problem today. Feeling powerful.
Do you think Six gift is real or not? I think he was doing what he saw other ministers do. Sad to me that he was just okay with being what they wanted him to be?
Sounds like most are nearing the final chapters and ending. Next week do a wrap of any other dicussion and readings. Post final comments and thoughts. Post accronym and comment about the book style? Etc. How does ths sound to everyone?
If I remember correctly, Six wasn't mentioned again until the very last chapter, and only by Hattie, which is funny since his accident was so significant. But he was also born isolated from everyone. According to my chart, his nearest sibling was Bell, who was 6 years older; when the accident happened, Six was 9, Floyd/Cassie/Bell were 18/17/15, Alice was 1, and Billups and Franklin weren't even born yet. I guess you could theorize on how his isolation may have affected his character/support system.I have my doubts about Six's gift, but as I thought about it I'm not sure it matters (at least not to him). It is certain that he has the gift of charisma(empathy?), people believe in him and are drawn to him. And it is this gift that gives him a path to power, which may become an addiction. Not the healthiest path maybe, but I think I'd rather he be addicted to this type of power than the power of beating others to a pulp. :)
Ruthie. Ruthie is a baby. I thought this story was more about Lawrence and Hattie.
There is a comment about Hattie children not having a mark of the on her and being copies of Hattie.
Hattie says she is so ashamed? What is she referring too? As well as I couldn't stand to be a fool a second time?
I laughed at the comment Lawrence says about feeding Ruthie and Alice being a woodpecker on August's skull.
August reminds me of Mr. Mom and several reference to August wanting to set fire to things now. Hmmm.
Bell and Augusts conversation was heartbreaking
I can see the attraction for Hattie with Lawrence but I don't think she has thought it through.
A quick note - I have finished the book.It's early Friday morning and I'm getting ready for work, so, any more reflective comments that I might have on recently mentioned topics will have to wait until I have more time :)
I finished the book last week and had a really good discussion with my book club on it. As a mother, for me it made me think about how we are defined not necessarily as ourselves, but by our children.
Sue look forward to your commentsFranc, is ther something intresting that you discovered in your reading with your book club?
Rebecca wrote: "Hattie says she is so ashamed? What is she referring too? As well as I couldn't stand to be a fool a second time?.."I think that Hattie is much more ashamed about leaving her children behind than she is about having an affair or a child who is not her husband's. Since the deaths of Philadelphia and Jubilee, Hattie seems focused most on not losing any more children. Motherhood, marriage, none of it seems to bring her joy. Joy seems to have left her after her first babies' deaths. I thought that Lawrence's comment - "You act like your life is one long January afternoon" - was a good description of Hattie. She would do anything she had to in order to keep her children alive and with her, but there is no joy.
The comment about not being a fool a second time is Hattie's unwillingness to trade one bad marriage for another. She knows that Lawrence has a fatal flaw - his gambling - and once she understands that he has not given it up, she's out of there with no hesitation.
The Ella chapter, in addition to showing how painful it is for Hattie to separate from yet another child, also gives an interesting contrast between Pearl's life in the south, more prosperous but subject to the humiliations of Jim Crow, and Hattie's life in Philadelphia, destitute but with less overt racism. Are we there yet, Rebecca?
I really like your contrast comment about Pearls life and Hattie's which is important to notice in the chapter. I also agree with the no joy. I appreciate your adding comments Mina.
Thanks, Rebecca!To me, this was a pivotal chapter. We got to see the very unpretty argument between Hattie and August that lays out all of the problems in their marriage, including how, after all these years, Hattie still sees August as beneath her. She still sees herself as "the daughter of the only Negro Business owner in town" and calls August "a field hand" and "a nigger". We see Hattie's thoughts about motherhood - that she was the one who kept the children and that that was all she knew how to be. Hattie shows us how unbearable it is to lose another child. August steps up uncharacteristically and makes her understand that she lost her first two to death, but that letting Ella go with her sister was different. This is, to me, August at his best.
And there is Hattie's sister, Pearl. Pearl and her husband Benny are the people who are not a part of the Great Migration. They are living a prosperous, although childless, life in the south. They remind me of many black middle class people in the south who put all of their efforts into building a home with good china and other material possessions and tried to live their lives with as little interaction with the white community as possible. Their homes became fortresses against Jim Crow. With them, Ella will have the best that money can buy and be shielded from racism as much as possible. But Pearl and Benny's encounter with the white men when they stopped on the road showed how thin the veneer of safety actually was. If they had made one careless move, they could have been killed, with no repercussions for their white murderers. That scene, to me, showed how difficult it was for black people to sustain a life of dignity in the Jim Crow south and why so many chose the Great Migration, in spite of the disappointing lives they found in the north.
We can discuss Alice and Billups/ Franklin too.
Great observations, Mina! I particularly appreciated your thoughts on how Hattie's motherhood was focused on not losing any more children, not on any joy motherhood could have brought her. I was having trouble putting words on that contrast.And you've helped me see Pearl and Benny's encounter with the white men more clearly. I've been wondering a lot about the North/South contrast, about how Blacks may have been migrating to escape the degree of overt racism, but were losing their support system in the process. Getting ahead of the reading maybe, but I was thinking that the change implied for Hattie and Sala's relationship might be an analogy of how things are better for future generations, if the first migrating generation can survive. I am eager to read more on The Great Migration, as I am very naive to that history.
I really like she added suspense to the Pearl and Benny scene.I held my breath because I thought for sure something terrible was about happen to them. At this point I think we can open everything up for dicussion. Wrap up any final thoughts, questions? Etc.
Yes, I remember feeling similar suspense in the Franklin chapter - how could it end well on a beach full of land mines??I rated The Twelve Tribes of Hattie 5 stars and am so grateful that you all introduced me to this author! I have three comments overall:
1) It was hard to pick "favorite" characters because they were all so damaged in different ways. Ayana Mathis does a great job of revealing the characters in ways that bring you to love them, but it is hard to like a lot of them. Franklin is a good example, because I really thought what he did in the end was heroic, staying out of his family's life when he knew he could not beat his addiction. And yet, that is not much of a testament to his character that he has to protect his family from himself.
2) By the end of the book, I started feeling like Hattie's family was my family, they were all so dear to me. In the scene where August checks on Sala when he thinks she is asleep, he leaves the room whistling a little tune. In that moment I had an overpowering sense of comfort, hearing August's tune, despite my feelings of anger and disappointment that he provided so poorly for his family as they grew up. That instinctual comfort mixed with blunt reality is truly what family is all about, and Ms. Mathis did an extraordinary job making this family real to me.
3) I loved the poetry of the writing, and I was particularly impressed with how Ms. Mathis was able to say so much through descriptions only. In a scene in the final chapter, August reaches toward Hattie in the back yard, and she goes to him to help him into the house. That simple exchange says almost everything there is to say about their marriage: how she will always be taking care of him, getting the things done that he can't or won't, and how his world would crumble without her.
Michael wrote: "It was hard to pick "favorite" characters because they were all so damaged in different ways..."I agree that these are some seriously broken people, Michael, although I suspect that you found them more lovable than I did. It was interesting to me that one of the few characters who seemed to be on the road to a normal life was Billups, who had been molested. His sister Alice, who had been the only witness to the molestation, was destroyed by her guilt from not having protected her brother or reported the molestation. She lost her grip on reality and, even though she married into a wealthy family and had no material needs, she led a life of terror and guilt. She desperately tried to tie her brother to herself in their "shared affliction", making her brother dependent upon her and constantly telling him that he could not manage without her because he was so damaged. Billups, however, wants to put what happened behind him and build a normal life with his girlfriend Eudine who is employed be Alice. I think that Billups may have a good life if he can continue to break away from his terribly damaged sister, but she has no idea how to build a life apart from Billups.
This chapter also has the only incidence I remember of Hattie being physically abusive to her children. Alice describes Hattie's "rages", brought on by her feeling of not having anything to show for her life, with no house of her own. Alice describes Hattie brutally beating 8-year-old Franklin during one of the "rages" for leaving a window open in a storm, resulting in damage to the floor.
Franklin's chapter was one of the least interesting to me. His military life was similar to so many Vietnam era stories, and the wreck he made of his personal life back home just seemed like following in his father's footsteps - womanizing, drinking, and gambling.
When I finished Franklin. I felt like You Mina. I had read his character before. I also didn't like the roughness and crudeness of Franklin. I know the language of military can be colorful but I felt I got the idea after a while and it was necessary to keep using profanity. In the "Franklin" chapter, the author varies tones and locales, shifting to 1969, to Vietnam, where Franklin is a soldier. This character feels more distant not only geographically but also in terms of how much of a window the reader gets into his thinking. Why do you think the author chose this approach for Franklin's chapter.
Michael I think it's great that the characters became dear to you. I do see how throughout the book you can sense this. Do you think Mathis wanted us to have them become this way to us? For me I felt there stories were never really complete finished. For me I struggled to have a connection.
Mina, I agree with your observations on Billups/Alice. I've decided that Billups is my favorite "tribe"; Sala seems compassionate and is a possibility, but it's too early to see where she's going, and there is something about surviving that appeals to me about Billups. He is taking practical, small steps to reclaim his life, and that is inspiring and courageous.That is an interesting question about the Franklin chapter, Rebecca. Now that I think about it, I wonder if the isolation and disconnect was presented to give Franklin the resolve to break from his family. He might not be able to follow through when he is in proximity to them again. Billups/Alice showed how it is hard to break out of familiar family dynamics.
As for bonding with the family, I think I am personally quick to bond when there are high emotions involved. Ms. Mathis seems to be zooming in on a critical moment of each of their lives, and each was emotionally charged. I'm pretty sure every chapter made me cry at some point, and I'm a sucker for that type of connection.
Okay, here are my remaining acronyms. What a fun idea, Rebecca. I went overboard, I suppose, but I love word challenges! (Lafayette and Darla are from the Floyd chapter)
Broken Innocence Living, Learning, Untangling Parental Sister
Loving Ardently, Flintily; August Yet Eschewed; Tormented Town Exile
Direct, Ardent, Real; Loves Adventure.
And for jo:
Suffering Inspires X-hortation
So I have not added anything to the discussion.... I was disappointed and loved this book all in one. I wrote a review and posted it... I think my fav character was Billups because he moved beyond tragedy to get to healthy. Sometimes we leave these characters hurting and troubled and people need to knew with work there can be a better place in ones spirit.
Another subject brought up was relief. I myself feel it not my place to judge. I see many coworkers that are outraged about anyone who gets it.Is Benny and Pearls relationship like Hattie and Augusts.
It made me sad when Pearl called herself Abraham's Sarah.
HattieHeartbreaking, Hurtful, hateful,harrowing,
Angry,
Tough
Tired
Icy,
Emotionally spent
so sorry i've disappeared y'all. life took over. hope to be able to put together some coherent thoughts tomorrow. the discussion is very good. thank you everyone for the enlightenment!p.s. i did finish the book! weeks ago!
I agree Rae. I think that Billups also shows hope contrasted with Alice who felt she had to hold on to the anguish and sorrow.You did and jo you did a very nice review if I might add. I am glad to hear you say that when I lead I feel I dont ever really know what I am doing.
I have finished my reread and again. The Benny and Pearl scenes tugged at me. Was it Bell that got sick? That was a hard one for me too.
I have purchased See Now Then and am looking forward to that one.
Rebecca wrote: "HattieHeartbreaking, Hurtful, hateful,harrowing,
Angry,
Tough
Tired
Icy,
Emotionally spent"
Whew! That acrostic message hits the nail squarely on the "haid," Rebecca. No more needs to be said.
Sharon what did you think of the book? Did you read it with the Oprah group too? Did you have a favorite?
This was a first for me. I actually read the book during this discussion period but made no contribution to it. Sorry. But I read it while on vacation and it's definitely not a beach read. So I didn't want to bum myself out spending too much time with these really depressing stories of this highly dysfunctional family. So while I can say I was not a fan of the subject material, I do say that Mathias has enormous gifts as a writer. These fractured people will stay with me and I look forward to her next work.
It's okay William. I think some books move us more than others. I am glad you made a comment.
Rebecca, I'm going to call you on it: aren't you supposed to do two acronyms for Hattie! At the very least, I am curious about if your perspective on her changed and at what point in the book...
You sure did. Keep me on my toes. I don't think she changed much for me even with seeing some tender moments for me it wasn't enough. I still think she remains pretty emotionally limited after losing the babies early on has everything to do with that. I am probably rather harsh on Hattie than the other characters. Maybe because I can relate to Hattie recently I had a close friend who has caused me to feel the same feelings I used to describe Hattie with.
I have been wondering whether anyone thinks that Hattie and August's lives would have been any different if their first 2 children had lived. I thought so initially, but now I'm not too sure.
Thank you, Rebecca, for such a great discussion! I'm sure that people will have more comments in the future, even though the month has ended. The thread always stays open!
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
The Twelve Tribes of Hattie (other topics)The Turk and My Mother (other topics)
Invisible Man (other topics)
The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ayana Mathis (other topics)Mary Helen Stefaniak (other topics)
LOL, I immediately thought of my wife. One of the first things I noticed when I met her is that she takes big strides like she has somewhere to be and will not be distracted by anything. Maybe it also ties in with not taking anyone's sh*t, a quality I think Hattie and my wife share.
Wilhelmina (or do you go by Mina?) - I agree, that is why I asked if we could pick characters not in their family. They are all so troubled. I did come up with one for Jubilee, though. The way she smiled and reached out to her brother broke my heart. I still have not recovered from that chapter:
Joyous, Unified Binary; Innocent Love Entreating; Extinguished