Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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Historical Accuracy in Fiction
I would say it's important that the reader knows at the outset if a writer has chosen to portray actual historical figures in an extreme way completely unsubstantiated by historical evidence. In those instances I think a "health warning" up front is a good idea.Usually historical fiction writers focus on story lines which are possible but unproven rather than completely unrealistic. In most cases therefore a historical note at the back is best as it explains where fiction departed from known history and does not spoil the reader's enjoyment of the story.
Terri wrote: "Speaking of historical notes being important. Some authors put their historical notes in the front. The common spot is the back, as you all know, but some times an author will put it in the front f..."I actually tried the front-note approach in one of my books to explain the state of late 4th century Rome (e.g. no lorica segmentata, no perfect legions and a turbulent religious backdrop), but a few readers mentioned that it 'got in the way of the story'. It's a difficult one, but I think the majority of readers want a story first and the facts later.
Terri wrote: "Paula wrote: "I once heard about a book written about the War of the Roses, I know who the author was, but forget the name of the book. Any how it put me right off reading it when i heard that Will..."Julian Rathbone?
What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the use of anachronistic names like Tom, Trudie, Meg, Sebastian etc (the book was set in 11thc England) really niggled me
Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the use of anachro..."Anachronistic naming is a no-no for me. Besides, when writing about 11th c England, you finally have the chance to use some very cool names for your characters which are no longer used at all, so why settle for common modern names at all?
That being said, naming can be very difficult. If you're only using period names, and most of your characters actually existed, there's a big chance half of them have the same name. It's historically accurate, but can be very confusing for the reader...
I remember one author letting her late medieval commander call out "John", after which half his troop showed up, and he could pick whomever he wanted a word with. Made me giggle.
Paula wrote: ".Julian Rathbone? .."Yep, Julian Rathbone wrote The Last English King. The book I referred to a few posts back. Is that what you mean?
I am not one for anachronistic naming either. Unless it is after a certain period. A more modern period.I am not sure 11th century England is the place for a Tom. lol. But I guess it depends how well the authors use the name and how many other characters he/she has done it with.
I would wince if Tom, Sue with their son Pip from the 12th century were going down to watch a Wicker Man burning on the shoreline....awwwkward moment for reader and book.
Gordon wrote: "It's a difficult one, but I think the majority of readers want a story first and the facts later. ..."I would most definitely agree with this. From my experience interacting with fellow HF readers over the years on this site, I'd say the majority for sure want it in the back of the book.
I must have my maps and names (as Darcy mentioned in this thread earlier today in reference to Bernard Cornwell books) in the front.
Please authors. Maps front and bloody centre! :)
I've always admired Iggulden for traveling to Rome and spending significant time in Mongolia to ensure the accuracy of his books. Not just the historical accuracy, but the details of everyday life.
Mark wrote: "I've always admired Iggulden for traveling to Rome and spending significant time in Mongolia to ensure the accuracy of his books. Not just the historical accuracy, but the details of everyday life."Iggulden indeed portrays a vivid Rome and steppe land. Yet at times he does massage history to suit. e.g. in the Emperor series, Marcus Brutus is portrayed as being the same age as Julius Caesar, wheras in reality there was a 15 year age gap (and it is thought Brutus might have been Caesar's illegitimate son).
But the end result is an absolute stormer of a series that is loved by many fans the world over (me included). As a reader, I loved up the tale and it inspired me to read more of the background history. As a writer, CI's successful approach has shown me that sometimes story does need to come first.
Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the use of anachro..."Well, anyplace that had become Christian would have been familiar with the name Thomas. Not sure about Tom. The 11th century might have been a little early for Margaret, maybe 100 -200 years. Gertrude was definitely not for a long time off. And Sebastian has a Roman sound to it, and there was a medieval St. Sebastian, but I doubt that it was in Britain in 1066. At least, I don't think it was used much in Britain until the 18th Century.
Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the use of anachro..."I've run into criticism for using authentic names in historical fiction on the grounds that they are unpronounceable, so I'm wondering if we might be talking here about modern versions/spellings of authentic names of the time. So a novel set in 1066 would be a good example of this conundrum: Would you refer to King William or Guilleme? Its the same name but the people then wouldn't have called him William but a reader today would be more familiar with that version of the name (though referring to him as "King Billy" in a novel would be going a bit too far)
Doesn't Gertrude actually pre-date 1066 though? My wife Trudy tells me its an old German name. There were also at least 2 Saint Margarets born before 1066 (one in Scotland).
Tim wrote: "Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the ..."There was an early St. Margaret, but I know a lot of English history, and I don't believe there were many Margarets around for quite a while after 1066. Perhaps it was common in Scotland but not so much in England. As for Gertrude, it may have been common in Germany, but I don't think the Germans had much interaction with the English (some, but not much) until George I moved over from Hanover.
I am currently reading The Scarlet Lion by Elizabeth Chadwick about William Marshall. The author included several prolific family trees. There were Isabellas, Joannas, Sybillas, Sybires, Mahelts, Maudes, and Eleanors in profusion. Not a Margaret or Gertrude in any of them. It actually would make a writer's life easier if there was more variety in names, but the medievals were astonishingly redundent in that respect.
Eileen wrote: "I don't believe there were many Margarets around for quite a while after 1066. Perhaps it was common in Scotland but not so much in England.."I'm not sure you are completely correct there, because before she was Saint Margaret of Scotland she was Margaret of Wessex, sister of Edgar Ætheling (King of England for a very short time) and daughter of Edmund Ironsides. There is also not one but two surviving Anglo-Saxon texts about the life of Saint Margaret - this time the older St Margaret of Antioch (4th century AD) so the name was certainly at least well known in Anglo Saxon England.
I haven't read The Scarlet Lion but assuming its about William Marshal 1st earl of Pembroke (married to Isabella of Clare) then not only was there a Queen Margaret on the throne of England during his lifetime but said Queen Margaret was accused of having an affair with William Marshall, which was one of the reasons that King Henry used to annul their marriage (she did quite well from the breakup though and ended up Queen of Hungary).
Tim wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I don't believe there were many Margarets around for quite a while after 1066. Perhaps it was common in Scotland but not so much in England.."I'm not sure you are completely correc..."
Wasn't she Marguerite? I don't think their marriage was annulled. Henry (at that point co-King with his father Henry II) died in a tournament before he could be the sole occupant of the throne. She did end up the Queen of Hungary after Henry's death. But I don't think she ever had any children who survived; one with Henry died in infancy.
Still, Marguerite is close enough. And I thought there might be some in Scotland. So it wouldn't have been unknown at that time, but perhaps not common.
Eileen wrote: "Wasn't she Marguerite?..."Its the same name, and appears in different ways dependent on who was writing it, and in what language. This is where I came in with the medieval (or otherwise) spelling/version of a name v. the modern one.
Mark wrote: "I've always admired Iggulden for traveling to Rome and spending significant time in Mongolia to ensure the accuracy of his books. Not just the historical accuracy, but the details of everyday life."He sure did get himself into his roles.
I have to admit though...I have a friend (an archaeologist who specialises in Mongolia and has done a few trips there for archaeological projects). He read the first of Iggulden's Khan books and found a lot of discrepancies in everyday life. Such as food that was described was food they would never have eaten with a certain ingredient mentioned.
After that feedback I wasn't sure what to believe anymore about the detail in the book.
Tim wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I don't believe there were many Margarets around for quite a while after 1066. Perhaps it was common in Scotland but not so much in England.."I'm not sure you are completely correc..."
Queen Margaret was French (part of the royal French family), and the family in your other example was born into exile (Hungary, among others), which could have influences their choice of names. St Margaret had a sister with another unusual name: Christina. So royal families might not be the best way to know whether or not a name was used in a certain region. Sure, it was known, but would your character's parents have named their children like that? Medieval people were very traditional when it came to names, and they tended to name after people in their own family (ie, traditional Anglo-Saxon names are far more likely for your average Joe).
Eileen wrote: "Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the ..."Paula wrote: "Terri wrote: "Paula wrote: "I once heard about a book written about the War of the Roses, I know who the author was, but forget the name of the book. Any how it put me right off reading it when i h..."
Olde English names were rarely Christian based, they were more likely to be Thorkell or Redwald than Thomas, let alone Tom. Gertrude wouldnt have been so bad - but Trudy, definitely not. Margaret was the name of Edward the Exile's Hungarian daughter, probably Margarethe or something but Meg was definitely out in those days
Tim wrote: "Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the ..."Yes Gertrude does but Trudy? I know its short for Gertrude but in 11thc England? No way
Tim wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I don't believe there were many Margarets around for quite a while after 1066. Perhaps it was common in Scotland but not so much in England.."I'm not sure you are completely correc..."
Margaret isnt an olde English name but was certainly known yes, from the daughter of Edward the Exile who was born in hungary. But I did say the name used in the book I mentioned was Meg, which i know is short for Margaret but not likely to have been used that far back
Sanne wrote: "Paula wrote: "What do people think about using anachronistic names in histfict? I once read a book that centred on a love affair during the making of the Bayeux Tapestry. I loved the story but the ..."I am writing a series set in the 111th c. Yes they did use the same name a lot, but my main characters are fictional so its not too difficult for me to have a variety of different names. However my nonfictional characters often have the same name but spelled differently
Sharon Kay Penman mentioned in her blog that it was often difficult to differentiate the various Williams in Lionheart. She ended up using the French version, in various spellings, and the English version, some with nicknames. The medievals did have this annoying habit of using a very limited number of names.
Eileen wrote: "The medievals did have this annoying habit of using a very limited number of names...."I think we still do it today. Names follow trends as much as they follow family traditions. There are lots of Williams in the 11th and 12th century because of the fame of William the Bastard/Conqueror. My wife has 4 friends, all the same age, called Karen, probably because Karen Carpenter was famous about the time they were born. There is a rash of eleven year old Britannys in my daughter's school, obviously named after a charming region in France their parents must have visited around 2001/2002...
Tim wrote: "Eileen wrote: "The medievals did have this annoying habit of using a very limited number of names...."I think we still do it today. Names follow trends as much as they follow family traditions. T..."
One of my daughters is a Katie and there were 12 other Katies in her class. There were dozens of Susans when I was growing up, but I never hear it for a girl today. Even so, I do think there is a somewhat broader selection today than there was 1000 years ago.
I am writing about the Byzantines who had the habit of naming their children first after the kids' grandparents, and then after the parents' sibling. Do you have any idea how confusing that can become?
Eileen wrote: "I am writing about the Byzantines who had the habit of naming their children first after the kids' grandparents, and then after the parents' sibling. Do you have any idea how confusing that can become? ..."Ouch. Now there is a challenge. In my grandparents generation and before there was a trend for naming your child after the mother's maiden name - hence I have a mate back home in Ireland whose full name is "Irwin Scott" - which confuses most folks these days.
Tim wrote: "Eileen wrote: "Wasn't she Marguerite?..."Its the same name, and appears in different ways dependent on who was writing it, and in what language. This is where I came in with the medieval (or othe..."
Terri wrote: "Mark wrote: "I've always admired Iggulden for traveling to Rome and spending significant time in Mongolia to ensure the accuracy of his books. Not just the historical accuracy, but the details of e..."
That's interesting. Do you remember what the offending food was?
(This relates to Terri's post 393 - laptop not letting me choose right one.)
Andrew wrote: " That's interesting. Do you remember what the offending food was? (This relates to Terri's post 393 - laptop not letting me choose right one.) .."Um..having trouble remembering now as the conversation was mid last year. I think one of them may have been salt with lamb?? That they would not put salt with lamb...I may be off though. I can't help thinking it had to do with salt and lamb...:/
I looked into it. Not salted lamb. I was close though. It was spiced mutton. He mentioned it in his review too. 'Mongolians' would not eat spiced mutton, they would not eat spiced anything'.This is an excerpt from my friends review.
" For me, there were several ethnographic and historic innacuracies (most especially: what the hell happened to Jamuka, the yang to Chinggis's ying?) but the writing was good enough to keep this from annoying me too much. I understand that I was reading it from a perspective different from that of most readers."
Eileen wrote: "I am writing about the Byzantines who had the habit of naming their children first after the kids' grandparents, and then after the parents' sibling. Do you have any idea how confusing that can become? ."Yep! I had a recent near miss when plotting around the 11th century Doukid family line. A single line passage revealed that there were in fact two folk named Andronikos Doukas, very close to the imperial court, when many others completely fail to distinguish between them.
Terri wrote: "I looked into it. Not salted lamb. I was close though. It was spiced mutton. He mentioned it in his review too. 'Mongolians' would not eat spiced mutton, they would not eat spiced anything'.This i..."
That sort of makes sense as the Mongols before Genghis were very poor and unsophisticated, with not much access to costly spices. Still, it's tough for an author to get everything right.
Interesting that you found it out though. You know archaeologists in any other countries, by any chance?
Andrew wrote: ". Interesting that you found it out though. You know archaeologists in any other countries, by any chance? .."Only two in Britain. The guy who does projects in Mongolia every couple years, and another dude.
I had a nightmare last night. I dreamt I watched a television adaptation of the White Queen. I feel quite traumatised this morning
lol. It isn't a nightmare..it is reeeeaallll *makes spooky noises*
Watched half an episode of "the White Queen". Bunch of fluff with a cast of pretty boys. That show could seriously use some experts in charge of getting period detail right. And that freckled girl needs to stop looking like a coquettish virgin and more like the suffering widow she claims she is. *sigh* Not sure if that's a disappointment or living up to my expectations of it. Too much romance and too little political plotting. Good for people who like that sort of storyline, but it's not for me.On top of that, the Borgias is cancelled. :( Where am I going to get my hf fix on the telly now? That show might not have been the most factual when it came to telling the historical events "as they truly happened", but it managed to capture the spirit of the age with such brilliancy and eye for detail and I'm sorely going to miss it. If there's one show which had decent consultants to get the feel of the period right, it's the Borgias...
Sanne wrote: "Watched half an episode of "the White Queen". Bunch of fluff with a cast of pretty boys. That show could seriously use some experts in charge of getting period detail right. And that freckled girl ..."Totally with you Sanne! The Borgias and Rome were far better and superior programmes. Not sure about the Tudors because I refused to watch it. The White Queen was devastatingly dissapointing, much as I thought it would be - not a fan of Gregory's. However, they could have made some effort to draw the viewer into the time and place by creating a believable wardrobe and sets that would have been satisfying to even the least discerning viewers. It was an hour of my life I shall never get back! and what? the Borgias have been sacked?
Paula wrote: "the Borgias have been sacked?"Yes: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06...
Though perhaps there will be a film to give it a satisfactory ending? I hope so! They can't leave us hanging like that after the episode of the 16th...
Rome was nice too, though for me a bit too explicit at times. Never could get past the first episode with the Tudors. Much like the White Queen, it totally misses out on evoking the period feel, and instead goes for putting the main focus on romance and relationships, instead of the interesting political dynamics and historical events of the time.
Sanne wrote: "Paula wrote: "the Borgias have been sacked?"Yes: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06...
Though perhaps there will be a film to give it a satisfact..."
I feel like I am going to cry
Paula wrote: "I feel like I am going to cry "nooo :(
I'm so disappointed too. I wanted to see their downfall!
Gordon wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I am writing about the Byzantines who had the habit of naming their children first after the kids' grandparents, and then after the parents' sibling. Do you have any idea how confusi..."Hey, Gordon. They were probably cousins, named after the same grandfather.
Sanne wrote: "Paula wrote: "I feel like I am going to cry "nooo :(
I'm so disappointed too. I wanted to see their downfall!"
Thanks for friending me Sanne!
Paula wrote: "Sanne wrote: "Paula wrote: "I feel like I am going to cry "nooo :(
I'm so disappointed too. I wanted to see their downfall!"
Thanks for friending me Sanne!"
No problem! Always nice to meet some fellow Borgias fan.
Eileen wrote: "Hey, Gordon. They were probably cousins, named after the same grandfather. "Yeah, they were cousins, but drastically different in terms of personality, age and historical impact. Just glad I cottoned on to this before I had based my novel around my own misunderstanding that they were one and the same!
Gordon wrote: "Yeah, they were cousins, but drastically different in terms of personality, age and historical impact. J..."
That would have been a monumental F#$% up if you had not realised. Lol!
Well, they could also be uncle and nephew. Startling lack of originality in names in the middle ages.
Terri wrote: "Gordon wrote: "That would have been a monumental F#$% up if you had not realised. Lol!"
Absolutely. The scary thing is that in all the books I read around the period, there was just one ambiguous passage in one volume that suggested this. Would have been so easy to miss. Scary indeed.
Talking of bloody shortening names! Reading 1356 by Bernard Cornwell right now and if Thomas of Hookton calls William Bohun - Earl of Northumberland - 'Billy' one more time I am going to scream I think.
Terri wrote: "Talking of bloody shortening names! Reading 1356 by Bernard Cornwell right now and if Thomas of Hookton calls William Bohun - Earl of Northumberland - 'Billy' one more time I am going to scream I ..."
Better than 'Bobo'?
Marina wrote: "I've just finished watching an actual episode of "The White Queen" and it was more wonderful than I could have ever expected (and my expectations were quite high).And the vile Margaret Beaufort fr..."
I'm more with you Marina, than with Sanne and Paula. I thought there was lots to enjoy in the first episode of The White Queen. It is absolutely NOT (NOT!) recommended to Terri :) But it was handsomely shot, and - like all tragedies - begins in the Summer with all appearing to go well. It will end, as we know, with the pretty boys dead and several of their children murdered. I promise to alert people here if there is a good and blood-thirsty episode :)
Historical accuracy? Not so much...
As for freckly Ms Woodville - she was described by contemporaries (according to wikipedia) as "the most beautiful woman in the Island of Britain" with "heavy-lidded eyes like those of a dragon". I was looking forward to Rebecca Ferguson's 'dragon eyes' impression, but we haven't got there yet :)
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
The Lion at Bay (other topics)The Lion Rampant (other topics)
The Lion Wakes (other topics)
The Water Thief (other topics)
Imperial Governor: The Great Novel of Boudicca's Revolt (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Daphne du Maurier (other topics)Robert Low (other topics)
Robert Low (other topics)
C.J. Sansom (other topics)
Anthony Riches (other topics)
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The Last English King was a bit of a shock for me for similar reasons. He just tipped the characters surrounding the Battle of hastings on its head. However he didn't do it in a serious manner. Everyone was gay, or bi 0r sleeping with their father, sister brother, that you knew not to take anything as 'gospel'.
In this case the author went so against what people's preconceptions might be of these people at the time that you just knew to take everything with a grain of salt. To enjoy the story (which I did) and not believe anything he says. lol.