The Postman Always Rings Twice Discussion

[Dlmrose, Moderator Emeritus]

This is the discussion thread for the Spring 2013 Group Read The Postman Always Rings Twice Please post your comments here. This thread is not restricted to those choosing this book for task 20.10, feel free to join in the discussion. Warning- spoilers ahead!

[N.]

My first time posting in a group reads thread! Here goes.

I don't read a lot of hardboiled fiction (so little, in fact, that maybe that sentence should read "I don't read any hardboiled fiction"), so I was excited to crack this one open.

While at first I was confused by the very minimal set-up for Frank and Cora's initial affair, once the action started really rolling, I liked that Cain jumped right into it. "Will they or won't they," I realized, would have made for a boring beginning-- because, of course, they will. Their romance did feel a bit phoned in throughout the novel, but I understand that this wasn't really the author's focus. It's not a love story; it's a story about desperation and distrust. (Or maybe it is a love story.)

I thought the themes of duality (a person's animal nature vs. their humanity, conscious vs. subconscious) were really interesting, and that Cain really brought out the idea that our distrust of others' really reflects a distrust of ourselves and of our own motives.

I'm also interested in the cat motif. Cora commented on it once-- "The cat came back," she says, which jives with the boomeranging morality that is operating throughout the story. There's also the idea of cats having nine lives... Would love to read more ideas on what effect cats have as a recurring image in the novella.

[Karen Michele]

I really liked it and am surprised I've never read it. I think I had this confused with an old Audrey Hepburn movie thriller that I can't remember the name of, so I thought I knew the story and so never read it. I enjoyed the cat theme that Nonodisco mentioned. There's actually a song "The Cat Came Back" which involves a cat being killed and coming back the very next day. I think I like the noir books because they don't spend too much time on the romance. I also enjoy courtroom drama, so I ended up really glad to have read this one!

[JennRenee, Moderator]

I really enjoyed this book, much more than I had expected. I haven't ventured into noir crime novels before and think I may need to now. I loved the story, the desperation, the drama, and the karma. (at least that is what I call it.) I enjoyed the way the story read and the overall tone. It very much exceeded my expectations.

[Sandra]

This is my first time reading a book from the noir genre and don't know if I will venture into that genre again. It wasn't a bad book, actually it was quite well written, I just didn't enjoy it. The desperation of the characters came through very well, however I would have preferred more build up, more description of the characters, their situations. Quite frankly, I found the relationship between Cora and Frank to be a little demeaning and degrading, not romantic at all.

[Kayleigh]

I used to run a movie rental store, before the digital age made them obsolete in my town, so I have watched the 1946 movie version of this book before. However, the thought never crossed my mind to read the book until it appeared in the group reads. Unfortunately, I must say that I didn't enjoy the book as much as I hoped I would. I found it very very hard to get into. It was also very lacking in descriptions and very heavy in dialogue. I know that this was common for the time it was written, but I enjoy books that are more descriptive about the characters and the places, so I can visualize the story as I read it. I gave this book 2 stars.

[Chaitra]

I love noir, more the movies than the books, but I love the books too. This was something I'd not read nor watched, which is strange because it was made into a movie twice and both times was very acclaimed. Anyway. I still think Double Indemnity is superior to this, but that may be just me preferring the more clear cut crime and mystery in that book.

Not that this is bad. It is a lot more ambiguous. Even till the end it kept me guessing about which of them, Frank or Cora, would bail out and do the other in. They're both horrid, both profess to be still in love with the other and both of them come so close to it. It was quite engaging. But the book lost me for a bit when Willie and Pat came on scene, I don't think that was quite necessary? I think Frank and Cora were overwhelmed by mutual loathing and guilt and twisted love enough that there wasn't need for the blackmail track to unhinge them. I think the ending was great, but I also think that in 1934, there wasn't any other way to end this. They had to get their comeuppance.

Was it racy? It must have been - how many novels of the time dealt with BDSM? Yikes, that first kiss.

[Sheila]

This was vintage noir. I didn't care that much for it. Maybe I'm a prude but the fact that relative strangers would head for bed the minute "the Greek's" back was turned bothered me. I'm afraid the best part of this book was that it was short.

[Donna Jo]

You guys are piquing my interest! I had planned to read this on the train when I go to Chicago later this month, but I may have to read it sooner.

[Jill Renee]

Readerboard Name: Jill Renee
I thoroughly enjoyed this book and knew I would since it had been on my "to read" shelf for a while. As a fan of noir, I felt it stayed true to the themes of the genre. Although it was short, I was still able to get attached, involved and geniunely care about the characters. I loved the sharp contrast between the "happy" vs " violent" parts of the story. Overall, I felt it was very well done.

[Andy]

Andy P.
I read a lot of mysteries but not many classified as noir. I can understand why this is a good example of the subgenre. The author invites you to think rather than spelling out what exactly is happening.
Cora and Frank are not very moral people and easily swayed by their immediate desires. That people can be major protagonists with little reason to attain the readers's empathy is testimony to the author's skill as a writer.

[Rebecca NJ]

Readerboard Name - Rebecca NJ

I finished this book a few days ago and have been thinking about the book and even the genre as a whole. In fact, I just did a second read through prior to returning it to the library just to see how different it would be knowing the end. I think what kept my interest throughout was the deceit, crime and paranoia which are elements that define noir. I have read a lot of mysteries and would love to pick up another book classified as noir just for comparison. I am also curious to read another book by James Cain to see how he developed as a writer since this was one of his first works.

Now that I've read the book, I am extremely curious about the movies. I want to see if Frank and Cora are displayed as I created them in my imagination.

[Megan]

I definitely enjoyed this more than I thought I might. I'm not huge into mysteries or anything like that, but this one kept me on my toes, wondering how it'd all play out. I liked how ironic the last few pages were. Karma kicks in.

What surprised me most was how unlike "noir" it was. I was expecting something like Dick Tracy or Who Censored Roger Rabbit, with the smoke and dark and detectives and dames. This was more...I don't know. It felt more like Steinbeck, but that might just have been the setting.

I felt bad for Cora. Sure, she made a string of bad decisions, but I saw her as just a kid who got in way over her head. Frank, the narrator, I don't have much sympathy for. He doesn't seem terribly reliable, either--we find out he's been arrested and in jail a number of times, and he's the one who pressures Cora into trying to off Nick, rather than just the two of them running away together. I wasn't too much put off by Frank and Cora hooking up so quickly, even though I wanted to smack them both and tell them not to be stupid.

Any thoughts on the title, though? Maybe it's the NyQuil (I've been laid up the past two days with a wicked cold), but I feel like I missed something. My only idea is that it relates to the idea of messengers bringing bad news? Them siding with "the devil" and then getting their own in return?

[Chaitra]

Ms Anderson wrote: "Any thoughts on the title, though?"

My copy had an explanation! It's kind of weird and is retrofitted actually.

One explanation which has nothing to do with this book was from the real life case that inspired Double Indemnity. I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read/watched it, so (view spoiler)[The lady bought an accident insurance without the knowledge of the husband, and for when the payment notices came in, she instructed the postman to ring the doorbell twice, so she'd be the one to pick them up (hide spoiler)].

The second explanation is between Cain and the screenwriter who was waiting for this manuscript. Apparently, the screenwriter felt anxious waiting for the manuscript to arrive, and he would keep his ears open for the postman delivering it. And he always knew the it was the postman because he rang twice. Voilà, title.

Then they retrofitted it to the ending of the book, where Fate is the postman who rang twice for Frank, delivering Justice. On the first ring he gets away with killing the Greek, but on the second ring he still needs to pay for a death he was not responsible for.

[Cindy AL]

OK, I read it, I'm posting, and I can count it, but I didn't like it. I remember reading Double Indemnity many years ago and liking it. I also like Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler, but this wasn't my cup of tea. I agree with what everyone is saying about karma. There is also a descent into evil theme. If they had really loved each other, they could just have left, but oh that money

It is true to its time and place, you can almost smell the dusty, deserty highway and the diesel fumes from the trucks.

[Dee]

I have like 4 minutes left in the audiobook right now - so I figured that my perception probably isn't going to change all that much - I choose to read/listen to this one mainly because it was a genre I had never read before in all of my reading - but a lot of my friends enjoy it, so I thought I would give it a chance

I have to say that overall, I wasn't all that impressed...there was nothing about any of the main characters that I could like and even then, there have been books where i have disliked all the characters (Gone Girl for one), but still found something redeeming in the plot - unfortunately, i couldn't with this book. Even Stanley Tucci's narration didn't make me enjoy the book anymore...i don't know if I will try it again in the future, or not - but I know I won't be rushing out to try it

[Wanda]

It has been quite a while since I have read this particular genre and I had forgotten how much I enjoyed it. As I began it, I thought---this is the reason that I stopped reading 'Noir'. However, as I delved further into the book it hooked me. I found myself feeling such compassion at the end for Frank and Cora until I remembered what they had done. I felt that the characters could just walk out of the book and I would be able to recognize them. For sure, I will add some more of this genre to my TRB list.

[Lindsey]

I guess the appeal of this kind of book just goes over my head. I heard this book was an influence for L'étranger. No wonder I didn't like it because I was never fond of that book either. I gave this two stars instead of one because I do like tragedies, and I liked Frank's sentiments at the very end, kinda bittersweet. Other than that, a blah, cold, emotionless book; I'm sure that's the point of the genre, but books like these are not why I read. I like books that warm me or pull at my emotions or thrill/fascinate me. This did none of the above. Anyway, I'm not complaining because I knew going into this task that I would most likely not like the book, but you never know! It's always fun to attempt to broaden your horizons.

[Kim]

Liked this a lot more than I expected. I love how terse and brief and rough the prose is, fitting the protagonists and the suspense. It felt like there was a lot of race-and-gender subtext to the whole setup, how thoroughly trapped Cora felt by her options, how Greek was read as "not-white" so Nick was othered/treated as disposable throughout. The author sold me on how twisted-passionate Frank and Cora's love was just as easily as he sold me their fear and distrust, and it made the whole thing feel real to me. Surprised that such a brief read is classified as a novel, or that this is treated as a classic rather than any other noir/mystery out there. Maybe because it's one of the earliest?

[Robin (Saturndoo)]

I just finished this book and definitely didn't like it. This is the first time I have read anything in this genre but glad this one was short. It was very poorly written and I had to go back and re-read a sentence or two to make sure I read it right. "The next morning the telephone WAKED us up"....seriously?????? The other one line used "it fitted" which was totally not correct either. I must agree with Lindsey it was a very blah,boring,cold,emotionless book. I was hoping to find a new genre/author that I would enjoy but was sadly mistaken. If I could rate it less than one star it would definitely get it.

[Kim]

♥Robin ♥ wrote: "I just finished this book and definitely didn't like it. This is the first time I have read anything in this genre but glad this one was short. It was very poorly written and I had to go back and r..."

I think the incorrect grammar was on purpose, it was written in the vernacular of how Frank speaks rather than "proper" edited English.

[Chaitra]

"Waked us" is not something I would use, but I thought it grammatically correct. No? The days when I could parse English grammar are so long gone, that I'm actually going to be surprised if I am right. lol.

[Dee]

I think it probably is or was but something that has changed evoked over time

[Wendy UK]

Difficult to know without the context, but I think we would say "it fitted" in British English, so maybe that was used in the US at the time of this book.

[Dee]

maybe one of those words like sneaked/snuck...we think that snuck sounds better in most contexts, but sneaked is as appropriate

[Robin (Saturndoo)]

LOL I don't know but the "incorrect grammar" drove me crazy LOl and it could have been intended as Frank's vernacular/dialect...needless to say it bothered me enough that it caused me to give the book a one star rating.

LOL Chaitra...I would say, "The next morning the phone WOKE us up." I have never heard anyone say "waked us" but it could possibly be a regional dialect that would be correct. I just haven't heard anyone use that terminolgy, YET ☺

[Megan]

♥Robin ♥ wrote: "LOL I don't know but the "incorrect grammar" drove me crazy LOl and it could have been intended as Frank's vernacular/dialect...needless to say it bothered me enough that it caused me to give the b..."

I read Double Indemnity by Cain, and there weren't any grammatical "errors," except as spoken by other characters. Therefore, I'm fairly certain that it was intentional as characterization, as with any other book written in dialect.

[Riya]

This was my first noir crime novel. I liked it just fine (rated it as 3 stars). Cora and Frank are both characters that I absolutely despised and they got what they deaerved in the end. I felt really bad for Nick; he was a nice guy that rescued Cora from where she was previously working and got Frank a job and then they end up killing him. Really sad.

[Riya]

I couldn't help but wonder why Nick couldn't keep other employees around; he mentions this several times. Did Cora sleep with them as well trying to lure them into murdering her husband, or is there another reason for them running off?

[Lindsey]

Yeah, that was sad. Nick was the only like-able character in the book.

[Andy]

I think the incorrect grammar is the author's way of indicating in as few words as possible that Frank and Cora have not had much education. In the same way he shows how indifferent the two are to the dictates of what society considers correct behavior (remember this book was written quite a while ago) when they tumble into bed after knowing each other for such a short while. I think this is the mark of an excellent writer when he communicates in a few words or actions what many authors spend many chapters communicating the same information.

[Jayme Pendergraft]

I really enjoyed this book! It really is amazing what Cain was able to pull off in such a small amount of pages.

I wondered about why Nick couldn't keep employees too, and thought for a while that Cora would be some sort of super manipulative mastermind, but that clearly didn't happen so I'm not sure on that point.

Nick bothered me, but I'm not sure why. I actually liked Frank and didn't have much of a problem with Cora (other than the whole murder thing).

I thought the introduction of the large cats was a bit weird. Foreshadowing from the small cat and the electric box? The cat came back and got him in the end? Not sure.

Overall, excited to read more from this author!

[Chaitra]

I actually didn't pay attention to Nick's employee woes, not until I read the discussion here. I thought a) that Nick's place was less than 20 miles to L. A. and all his employees were drifters trying to get to L. A., and b) that he was a stingy fellow who didn't pay much.

Honestly, I've no idea where I got (b) from. I might even be confusing it with some other book. But, anyway, that was just part of the set up for me.

@Jayme, my favorite Cain book is Double Indemnity. I've read Mildred Pierce too, and liked it, but for the life of me I can't remember anything about it.

[Jen]

(Readerboard: Jenbent)


I would call myself a fan of noir. I like the type of language & settings & the sleazy dudes & dames. I love noir movies & Hard Case Crime novels. But I didn't really care much for this, and I am very disappointed. Postman is a classic of the genre, so I had high expectations, and I was into it until when (view spoiler)[Frank & Cora made the first attempt on her husband's life, with the bathtub plot. (hide spoiler)] After that, I was not as much of a fan. All the details of the police, law, insurance, scheming this & that didn't grab me the same way, & then it was over! I may try some of Cain's other novels in the future like some of you have mentioned.

[Stacie]

I enjoyed this more than I thought I would and I'll definitely be adding more Noir novels to my never-ending TBR list! I must admit, I was really glad that both Cora and Frank got their comeuppance in the end. I had visions of one of them murdering the other to keep them quiet, and while that didn't quite happen, I'm glad someone had to pay for Nick's murder.

[Sandy, Moderator Emeritus]

This is not my usual genre either, altho I did read The Cocktail Waitress for the winter challenge which encouraged me to try more. I do like the spare style and i think the "unlikeable characters" is part of the genre as well - I think perhaps that the difference with some of the others in the genre is that with one like a Sam Spade novel, we've got the detective to identify with - but the other characters are not usually anyone you'd want to hang out with!

I'm a little surprised, tho, at the comments holding Frank primarily to blame for Nick's murder - he was the one who kept wanting to just leave. It was Cora who wanted to get rid of Nick so she could inherit.

[Donna Jo]

I just finished this and really enjoyed it. The writing style was so exactly right for the book and the time period. Was I the only person who thought about Grapes of Wrath while reading this? I know Steinbeck's novel is not really noir, but something about the time and setting called it to my mind.

[Michael]

The book was pretty good and interesting. The writing style was simple and it was a quick and easy read. I liked story and it kept me entertained. I rated it 3 stars.

[Amy C]

I really didn't think I would like this book because of the noir themes. It's the kind of book one can read in one sitting and I began to enjoy the characters, a little bit like enjoying the characters in Lolita.

[Kristina Simon]

LIke many on this thread, noir crime fiction is not a genre I normally read. But several years ago, I made a list of 100 books that I felt that I'd missed out on along the way and this book was on that list (along with The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett as classic examples of this genre). So I'm very happy that I got the chance to get it off my list.

I wouldn't say that I enjoy this genre, exactly, but I do find it interesting. I really like the bare-bones writing style and the fact that most of the story is told in dialogue. I'm not fond of pages and pages of description. But I also don't generally like books with characters I can't relate to or that I find unlikable--and I loathed Frank and Cora. Occasionally, I thought one, or both, of them were going to do something that would make me like them but, nope, they just kept getting more and more despicable. By the end, I hated them so much I was nearly jumping up and down with glee at the way they ended up. Sad, but true. I try not to be that bloodthirsty about real-life people. Sometimes I'm successful. Overall, I think the author did an amazing job in pulling that much emotion out of me in so few words. Bravo!

[Lindsey]

That's a good point, Kristi. That's something I can appreciate about this book - I really like dialogue over description.

[BJ Rose]

I'm with those who are not fans of noir crime. I also am not one who has to like the characters to enjoy a story - I do, however, have to care one way or the other about what happens to them and I found myself somewhat indifferent as to whether or not they got away with it. I did enjoy the irony of getting convicted for a non-crime after skating on the cold-blooded murder, tho. I think what I liked the most is that Frank's telling of the story is really his confession to a priest - even there, he's being honest but hedging his bets.

[Leslie]

Leslie K

This was a re-read for me and was just as enjoyable as when I first read it about 50 years ago. I also loved the movie with Lana Turner. I am a fan of Cain and love all his books, many of which ave been turned into outstanding now classic films. My type of author!!!

[Lois]

Thanks to the Group Reads, I have read several books that I would not otherwise have chosen, including this one. Dark, violent, underside-of-life, with such a spare style of writing that a pretty good story can be accomplished in little more than 100 pages—definitely not my usual fare! That said, the writing style was effective, the story elegantly crafted and evocative of the 1930s era in Southern California.

[Janet F]

It's interesting to read the variety of opinions about this book from the SRC gang. My own reaction reflected many of the varied critiques during my reading. As a noir newbie I was curious to learn about the genre and my search for understanding pulled me through the book. There was a certain anxiety or tension I felt for the main characters, despite not really liking them. Some of the story outcome is predictable but there are other elements that were a surprise and added a comic tone for me. The 'ladder' cat and the puma come to mind. The subtle role they may have played in the final outcome gives something to think about.

[SandyC]

I read Mildred Pierce a few years ago and really enjoyed it, so I did expect to like this one too.

I liked the story and how so much happens in so little time. Cora and Frank are despicable characters who get what they deserve. When the cat was electrocuted, I just knew "Miss Hellcat" would be a goner. Strange how two people with such low morals found eacher other. "Hey, I want to be with you." "OK let's kill my husband." What?? When Cora has a chance to run with Frank, she doesn't do it. Killing is better, apparently. Katz wasn't much better...willing to cover up a crime for what? The chance to win $100 from a rival? I suppose Nick was the good guy in all this. We're not told a lot about how he treated Cora, but it didn't seem like he abused or her anything like that. Frank comments about how much he liked Nick. He murdered someone he liked. Hmmmmm.

At least this book gives us a lot to talk about!

[Kristi]

I read this entire book today, and I really enjoyed it. I have read a couple Raymond Chandler novels, and Dashiell Hammett, and I must say that I liked this the best. I actually understood what was happening. I can't say I liked Frank, but I didn't dislike Cora as much as I probably should have. I was actually quite surprised by the ending. I didn't think it would end well, but I didn't predict that. Overall, I thought it was well written, and I will likely read another by this author.

[Melanie]

Melanie

This was my first foray into the 'noir' genre, and I have to say that I liked it. It reminded me a lot of Camus' "The Stranger" in some ways - not in the characterization or writing, which were very different, but in the general tone of the book. Frank was much easier to relate to - inasmuch as one can relate to a murderer - than Meursault, and I found myself becoming somewhat involuntarily attached to him... And considering his actions, that's saying something!

I very much enjoyed the writing, loved the twist at the end, and will no doubt be foraging for another book by James M. Cain:) Great option for a group read:)

[Megan]

Melanie wrote: "This was my first foray into the 'noir' genre, and I have to say that I liked it. It reminded me a lot of Camus' "The Stranger" in some ways - not in the characterization or writing, which were ver..."

Actually, Camus was inspired by Postman when writing The Stranger! I thought that was cool when I found it out, so I read that for the challenge, too.

[Donna Jo]

Melanie and Ms Anderson, don't you just love the connections you pick up while reading.