Science Fiction Aficionados discussion
This topic is about
The Player of Games
Series Read: The Culture
>
Book 2: The Player of Games
date
newest »
newest »
Read it fairly recently. I consider it the second best Culture book, next to Excession. It could arguably be the best in that series. Use of Weapons is also in the top 3 but suffers a bit of a structural issue.Anyway, it's good enough that if I wasn't stuck in the middle of so much other stuff (Hugo Award reading included so I can vote smartly), I'd give it another go even though it's not been long since my last read.
Enjoy!
I'm excited to start this one, despite my problems with the first book, which I mentioned in that other thread. I really do like his writing style a lot.
This is my favorite Culture book so far. I am currently reading Excession, which is also great. Love them drones!
Mod
Consider Phlebas > Look to Windward > The Player of Games > Excession
mark wrote: "...Look to Windward..."One of the few I haven't read in this series.
BUT...WTF? $15.99 for the Kindle version?????
That is such BS.
Mod
So far, Use of Weapons is my favorite, just for the punch to the gut ending....
I actually finished the book last week, since it was on my reading list. I have never read any of the Culture books and didn't know what to expect. I really enjoyed the book and will likely read other books in the series.
I'm giving this one 4 stars. Really well written. It was slow to start off but everything came together nicely. It was entirely unlike any other science fiction novel I've ever read.
Same here, I loved the writing style, the universe and the whole game aspect. The ending was nice but kind of a let down for me, so I settled on 4 stars.
Mod
that little drone Mawhrin-Skel was a fascinatingly disagreeable character.
Mod
From what I've read of the Culture novels, the endings are usually kind of a let down, but only if you expect something more glorious. I think Banks wants to show us that conflicts never end gloriously, both sides suffer, both sides are transformed. Life in the Culture seems to be boring at times, but the imagined alternatives of adventure and glory are only imagined and not real, so Banks. At least that’s my interpretation of it.
mark wrote: "that little drone Mawhrin-Skel was a fascinatingly disagreeable character."I loved that part about the book. Although Special Circumstances can be manipulative and shady, they also believe in second chances, and to find a place for everyone to enjoy themselves.
Packi wrote: "From what I've read of the Culture novels, the endings are usually kind of a let down, but only if you expect something more glorious. I think Banks wants to show us that conflicts never end glorio..."Sounds reasonable.
Mod
well said! agree completely.
I finished re-reading this one last week. loved it. I think I appreciated it even more the second time around. that dry wit! and the palpable anger at injustice and brutality.
But why is Gurgeh so empty, so listless when he returns home? If he has played a major part in bringing down the perpetrators of injustice and brutality, he should be well satisfied. I know I would be. I would be a hero to myself even if no one else knew my role. Was it resentment at being manipulated by the drone? Even the drone showing Gurgeh all the brutality helped him steel himself to play his best against all players. He was manipulated all the way through. Was this his problem?Or, did he invest too much in the game, want to win too much and therefore partake of forbidden fruit? Does the pursuit of glory leave a person empty inside? With only a pocketful of ash to show for it?
Mod
- resentment at being manipulated
- tension between having liked aspects of the Empire while realizing the Empire was also corrupt
- the low that comes after a really great high (specifically, that long passage describing how he felt he was truly connecting with the Regent Emperor during their penultimate game)
- the realization that the Regent Emperor was having a completely different experience than he was having
- knowing that a culture that he was briefly a part of is being changed forever
- shell shock at all of the slaughter and the future slaughter to come (due to revolution)
Mod
I agree with mark and would go with shell-shocked. He had to see many atrocities, fight for his life at the end. Consider that he comes from a culture where almost nobody experiences what he did. He will need to sit back for a while and slowly process all that has happened.I may add that with many of Banks' Culture books the question presents itself "Was it really worth it?".
I'm late to this, but I was reading (well, listening to) The Player of Games anyway. Nearly finished, so I'll chime in shortly. But as Mark observes, Banks's true genius is in the clean, crisp style that allows him to revel in the true focus of his story – setting rather than plot. That's where his message comes from – far more even than his characters. In fact, Gurgeh is leaving me cold too – but is he really just a vehicle for Banks to tell that real story? The story of his setting, where he sees humanity going, where he sees the concept of grand civilisation going?
Interesting comments from Mark, (source of Gurgeh's mood) Packi's (Was it really worth it? A real good "grand" question for anyone to ask) and Lucas (setting rather than plot). I love it when people give me things to think about.
Having just finished Use of Weapons (the best one yet) I'm glad I read them in order. They're kind of stand-alone but Player of Games gave me the understanding of the world of the Culture that I think I needed to fully understand the next one. Banks really captured the feeling in Player of Games of living in a society with no money or disease or hardships and then pushed on to explore some of the repercussions. Use of Weapons delves even deeper into that and really makes this series come alive. My appreciation for him as an author continues to grow.
One thing that Banks does beautifully is to draw us away from Gurgeh's POV when he discovers the horrific truth of the darker side of the people he has been sent to "infiltrate". We are suddenly yanked away from him, watching him through the eyes of others, not knowing what he is feeling, but knowing something has changed in him. It's a wonderful way to make us live this dehumanisation - this feeling of uncomfortable uncertainty. It highlights, as the book does throughout, the very worst of present day mankind through the eyes of the Culture - it underlines the barbarism Banks sees in the world around him.
Mod
June wrote: "[spoilers removed]"That’s how I remember it also. He was close to giving up. That experience showed him how important his mission was and released new energy.
I have something to add to the reasons for Gurgeh to feel let down after he returned home. He lost his innocence. Even though what he did was necessary to stop evil.
Micah wrote: "mark wrote: "...Look to Windward..."One of the few I haven't read in this series.
BUT...WTF? $15.99 for the Kindle version?????
That is such BS."
I am really quite surprised at the huge hike in traditionally published kindle books. It's a strange way to compete within a very fluid market where price is a considerable feature of marketing.
On another note, and in anticipation of reading Use of Weapons, there is no audiobook available on Amazon/Audible. However, if you want the audiobook, you can buy it on iTunes. There appear to be two versions, one is cheaper than the other, but both appear to be the same? I bought the more expensive version in error, but there you go! It was £10.95. You'll need to listen to it through iBooks rather than through the Music App as was once the case, although on a desktop Mac, you could also use iTunes directly.
Also, I agree with Mike about reading them in order. The truth of the influence of the Culture, and its aims, unfold at an ever-increasing rate in those first three books and I remember Banks once saying in an interview that he tried, in Consider Phlebas to portray the Culture from a negative viewpoint there. He wanted to begin by arguing against it, before then using it as his focal point for the rest of the series. Balveda's own epilogue at the end of Phlebas is a perfect example of Banks being critical of his own quasi-utopian creation.
The major point we don't have an answer to in those first three books (well, at least up to about the half-way point with Use of Weapons, where I am) is why the Culture do this - interfere with other cultures, when human history shows it to have been so decidedly unsuccessful in terms of human conflict. Perhaps the message is "unsuccessful, yes, but necessary."
Lucas wrote: "Micah wrote: "mark wrote: "...Look to Windward..."One of the few I haven't read in this series.
-interfere with other cultures, when human history shows it to have been so decidedly unsuccessful in terms of human conflict.
Before concluding interference is always unsuccessful, perhaps you should consider other means of influence, such as deliberately spreading ideas. And, I am sure some interference never makes it to the media. Perhaps, these include successful ones? Especially considering the whole panoply of means.
Considering Banks' background, his father in the admiralty, he may have known something of all this. I wouldn't be surprised. I think he was struck by the human cost for those carrying out the interference. Again, did he know people?
June, I haven't concluded it has always been unsuccessful, but in the modern age, interference has very frequently resulted in major conflict and the reasons for that interference have usually been shrouded in political soundbites rather than truth (if, in modern diplomacy, such as thing as truth actually exists). In Banks's Culture, the interference we are talking about is considerable and regime-changing. In our history, such interference has usually resulted in considerable loss of life and has rarely been viewed by all commentators as successful. There are always those who view any interference as having been unwarranted – who is to say what view is correct?Of course some interference never makes it into the media and, I would suggest, that some of that interference has nothing to do with altruism or benevolent interest – more economic or foreign policy. Who are we to say our interference in other cultures is warranted? I think that is Banks's message, especially in the pointed conversations between Horza and Balveda in Phlebas.
Lucas wrote: "June, I haven't concluded it has always been unsuccessful, but in the modern age, interference has very frequently resulted in major conflict and the reasons for that interference have usually been..."I'm willing to stand up and say some interference is warranted. As a woman, right now in the world, there are quite a few places where I would not want to live. Would I like some ideas of women's equality to disseminate in the direction of these places? You bet. And, that goes for some other things. I have not read Phlebas, but the society Culture targeted in The Player of Games was certainly reprehensible. So, I am not one to say all cultures are equally good.
The well covered interferences in recent years do not begin to cover "interferences" generally. I wonder if Banks may have known of some quiet successes. The way he wrote Player of Games suggests that to me.
Even the word "Game." Reminds me of terms such as "The Great Game," "The Game of Nations", the descriptions of encounters between Western powers and the Soviets years ago (submarine vs submarine, etc.) and the way the conflicts between the Great Powers were described.
(Side note: In Use of Weapons you will wonder about Culture's motives in a few places. And, I agree with you many interferences in today's world are not for pure motives or to combat injustice. And, even when this is a factor, sometime the results are worse than had nothing been done.)
I'm willing to stand up and say some interference is warranted. As a woman, right now in the world, there are quite a few places where I would not want to live. Would I like some ideas of women's equality to disseminate in the direction of these places? You bet. Of course there are regimes in our world that are to be considered reprehensible and the architects of human suffering. I think the Azad culture in The Player of Games reflected the worst elements of our own for precisely that reason. Filtering ideas into those areas is one thing, but military interference is quite another. I'm not suggesting it's wrong or right to impose regime change, simply that there are arguments either way that vary in strength depending on your point of view. It's arrogant of any society to believe their way of life is the right one and cannot be improved. That, I suggest, is what Banks is saying. I think Consider Phlebas is important when arguing Banks's standpoint in those first three books, especially the various afterwords/epilogues in that book. I can't say if Banks had some quiet insight into foreign policy and diplomacy, but if he did, he's not the only one. Many of us have worked in fields where international law or relations granted insights.
And I agree entirely that the use of the Azad game itself, particularly when placed in ironic contrast to the same game played by the Culture albeit on a wider scale, is an allegory for The Great Game in our own recent past and its murky, variegated shades of muddy grey.
I'm going out on a limb here and argue that there hasn’t been a single regime change intervention in human history with the intention to better peoples lives. It has always been about natural resources, land, treasures or hurting other countries. This is the significant difference between human interventions and the Culture's interventions. The Culture, at least that's what we're told, works towards regime changes for purely benevolent reasons. Considering the Culture is a post-scarcity society this seems believable.
Packi, I'm with you. On both points. The difference between the Culture and our society is want and need. At least in the way Banks portrays it. In the Culture, everyone seemingly has both what they want, and what they need. So interference can only really be motivated by altruism (or at least in major part). Not so in our world.
Mod
agree, and well said.
the international community has often been understandably up in arms over repulsive policies like apartheid or the subjugation of women or the criminalization of homosexuality. but in those case "up in arms" translates into economic sanctions - at best - rather than regime change.
I agree with the above comments. That is one of the appeals of reading Culture books. To get back to The Player of Games: Under Cultures guidance, Gurgeh destroyed the whole mythic basis of the target society, the core belief underpinning the social and political order. By the time Gurgeh was finished, the society was foreordained to disintegrate. That's pretty ruthless. In the book, this is certainly a deserved end and far more deadly than regime change to a society. There is no way the society in the book would ever rise again. It was gone -- more thoroughly than after a military defeat. Good thing the action is for benevolent reasons.
Science Fiction Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Use of Weapons (other topics)Consider Phlebas (other topics)
Use of Weapons (other topics)
Excession (other topics)
Use of Weapons (other topics)
More...
we've already read book 1 in this series, Consider Phlebas. you can find the group discussion for that amazing book here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
The Player of Games is book 2 in The Culture series. I really enjoyed it when I first read it and am looking forward to the re-read.