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Running an ad on Goodreads
Nik wrote: "Hi Isabel,Can I have your kind advice re my blurb and outlay in general?-:)
Your comments re Greg's ads look precise and pretty tuned with my perception."
You might try posting the in the blurb feedback thread too. I've seen a lot a good ideas there.
Greg wrote: "I thought I had two characters left in the ad. How's this?"Mystified by recent sensational data breach headlines? Try a new fictional story with a realistic scenario and characters you'll rememb..."
Greg, I'm afraid you have a tough job there. Sad to say, I don't think people are mystified by data breach headlines, sensational or not. They ought to be, but I see no evidence this sort of thing is no people's radar, and especially not here on GR.
Speaking from my background, my suspicion is that the people who would be interesting in your book don’t hang out on social media. Social media is not "privacy friendly" and people who care about that topic I think also tend to care about privacy.
My guess is that GR is not a fertile field. I suspect you would do better with blogs and sites that focus on data security and on-line privacy issues.
One suggestion before running a GR: search for groups. Are there groups specifically related to your book’s topic or theme? How many? How many members? How active?
For our part, I did a very brief survey for our books. I found one group quickly on exactly our sub-genre. There were ~100 members, and exactly 3 posts. None in the last several months.
We aren’t going to be running any ads on GR.
Once upon a time a good ad would draw a 1% click-thru rate; 0.5% percent was decent. But times have changed. Look at the ads GR runs that aren't for books. The people who spend billions annually think that is what has to be done to make ads work. (Whether they do or not is anybody's guess.) Ads are noise, the type of noise keeps changing and people adjust. A lot of people don't like ads. So when deciding to advertise, it's a good idea to consider what you personally, and the people who like your book, think about ads.
Do they enjoy them? Do they click promiscuously? Do they buy when they click? Or do they complain, ignore, and use ad-blocker plug-ins?
If you don't pay attention to ads (esp. GR ads), and the people you know like your work don't either, the people you don't know aren't likely to buy your book because of an ad.
The critical thing about advertising (or selling in general) is to think like a consumer, not a producer. The producer thinks: “I really, really have to get the word out!” The consumer thinks: “I really, really dislike spam, ads, and people always trying to get my attention.”
The consumer always wins.
Greg wrote: "I thought I had two characters left in the ad. How's this?"Mystified by recent sensational data breach headlines? Try a new fictional story with a realistic scenario and characters you'll rememb..."
I've been running Goodreads ads for months at the lowest bid amount of $0.10/click. As far as I can tell, they have not been terribly successful, but then, I haven't spent much, either. Here are my to-date results on five different books to give you an idea of what I've gotten for click-throughs - I'm including the titles because I think that makes a big difference in the click-through rate:
On Hearing of My Mother's Death Six Years After It Happened: A Daughter's Memoir of Mental Illness - 105,700 views, 76 clicks, .07 (9 months)
Just the Three of Us: An Erotic Romantic Comedy for the Commitment-Challenged - 48,200 views, 11 clicks, .02 (3 months)
My Life with Michael: A Novel of Sex, Beer, and Middle Age - 16,400 views, 7 clicks, .04 (3 months)
To All the Penises I've Ever Known: Erotic Shorts by Lori Schafer - 59,200 views, 24 clicks, .04 (3 months)
The Hannelack Fanny, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love My Rump - 250,400 views, 150 clicks, .06 (2 months)
I've made several observations regarding this data. First, although my memoir has the highest click-through rate, it also gets fewer views than most of the romantic/erotic titles, which suggests to me that fewer people are searching for books in that genre. My Life with Michael, also, I suspect gets fewer views because it contains adultery and therefore could not be classified as a romance, which eliminates a large percentage of the potential viewing market. Second, as with other types of online advertising, it is clear that Goodreads will show an ad more often - even with the minimum bid - if it is getting sufficient clicks. Hence the high number of views for The Hannelack Fanny and, to a lesser extent, To All the Penises I've Ever Known. But, as with other pay-per-click promotions, you have to strike a delicate balance between arousing a reader's curiosity and actually getting them to buy. I've sold very few copies of either of those ebooks in spite of the clicks, which suggests that a lot of people click the ad just to see what it's about without really being interested in reading the stories.
I'd also like to note that I tried a Google Adwords campaign for Just the Three of Us which, interestingly, generated a click-through rate of 1% versus the .02 of the Goodreads campaign, and which also demonstrably sold some books ((although perhaps not enough to pay for the ad - hard to tell). I, for one, find it fascinating that I got a better return on a generic Google search than I did on Goodreads, a site for readers, especially when the Google ads are so cheesy, but here we are. I would actually be curious to try an Adwords campaign for The Hannelack Fanny just to see what would happen, but alas, at only $0.99 a copy I don't think I can afford to throw money away on such an experiment.
Lori wrote: "I'd also like to note that I tried a Google Adwords campaign for Just the Three of Us which, interestingly, generated a click-through rate of 1% versus the .02 of the Goodreads campaign..."Thanks for sharing numbers!
I think Google Adwords uses a much more sophisticated method of targeting ads than GR does. That said, my imprssion (from doing internet marketing for over 10 years) is that most people lose money of Adwords.
Hey Owen,I think you are too categoric in what you've written to Greg. With thousands (millions?) subscribers on GR, I'm sure there are people interested in virtually everything here. Data breach is a pretty hot topic combined with Wikileaks, and CIA defector (don't remember his name).
Having said that, the downside is that I'm not sure how much impact the interesting theme would have on the decision to purchase a book. I might be interested in data breach, fond of dolphins, excited about aliens and compassionate with Ukrainians fighting the Russians, but I'm not necessarily going to purchase a book about any of the above topics.
I can't judge for anyone and I don't have analytics handy, but my own experience and intuition tell me that the majority would go with established brands or with specific recommendation, although there is always a certain percent that are eager to try something new/ looking for certain subjects.
Reading a book is time consuming, so the readers want to make sure they receive a content they are likely to like. I think it's sort of like Gillete, which many think is overpriced, but nonetheless purchase it and researches show 80% loyalty rate to the established brands in shaving devices.
In my teens, having then only 3 tv channels, no playstations, cell phones and stuff like that, I was reading probably hundreds of books annually, as a student and aspiring employee - maybe few dozens, nowadays at my early forties - with 5-6 books a year I might be flattering myself. And I don't even remember when the last time I was actively searching for a book. I think all the books I read during the last 5-7 years were recommendations.
I don't have solutions here, just observations.
Hey Lori,Thanks for sharing your extensive experience. You seems to have some funny stuff and prima facie provocative titles.
Can't agree more with Owen, that Google seems to have a more sophisticated tool. It's not necessarily in the context of books even. It seems to bring up the most relevant entries as adds, whenever I look for almost anything
I've changed the blurb a bit, basing on your criticism.If anyone would care to slam his fists into a revised version, here it is:
"Mortal Showdown is an action packed thriller sending the reader on a roller-coaster ride through violence, sex, scamming and anti-scamming, political upheaval and murder.
Michael (Misha) – a Ukrainian oligarch who was rapidly climbing the Forbes rich list, wakes from a coma caused by an assassination attempt and realizes that he's in the thick of a multilayered attack on him and his business empire. Making things even worse - among his numerous adversaries is one of Russia’s most influential strongmen. From rich and powerful Michael very quickly becomes a fugitive, struggling for survival. Counting on his wits and a handful of loyal associates, he searches for a way to get squared with each of his adversaries and to save his country from the Russian bear’s grasp.
In order to have the slightest chance in a face-off with his prime nemesis, Michael needs to attack head on, undertaking the greatest risk of his entire life. Unfortunately, the dangerous mission goes wrong from the very beginning..."
> searches for a way to get squared with each of his adversariesShould that be "get square?" Does Michael want to reconcile with his adversaries or beat them in a conflict?
- Greg
The latter, of course - 'to even the score', to get even basically. Would 'square' be a correct option then or maybe another wording would purport an idea better?
"Even the score" is better for your blurb then. "Get square" is an informal term for "reconcile." "Let's get square with each other," generally meaning, "Let's account for the wrongs we've done to each other in the past, make amends, and then move forward in a cooperative manner." Probably the opposite of what you want to say in your blurb.As I think about it, "even the score" has a similar meaning to "get square." But the emphasis is different. If I even the score, it means I hit you at least as hard ad you hit me. Or maybe a little harder because I'm mad and I really want to do more than just even the score. You burn down my barn, so I burn down your whole house. That's the idea.
Only in English will two phrases, both slang, with nearly identical literal meanings, have such different interpretations. English - where rules are really guidelines. :)
- Greg
Ok, Greg, got the drift, thanks! I'll change it accordingly, first here at GR
Nik wrote: "The latter, of course - 'to even the score', to get even basically. Would 'square' be a correct option then or maybe another wording would purport an idea better?"Greg pretty much covered this, but "to square" has the sense of to "make correct" or get things in order: square the books (accounting); square-rigged; square up -- as well "get square with each other".
"Even the score" does not really have this sense.
Best of luck!
Thanks, Owen. I'm going to change this particular phrasing so it'll obtain it's intended purport
We Americans are robbed in school because very few of us learn another language. I took a semester of Russian at the University of Minnesota 15 years ago and I was amazed that rules are really rules in Russian. But by now I remember maybe 10 words. Other people speak lots more English than I do of their language and it's my loss.- Greg
I think another language should be a must at school. It always opens new opportunities. Naturally, if you don't use any langauge, even your mother's tongue, you tend to forget after a while. I use a lot all 4 languages that I know at proficient level and on top of that they are always helful when travelling abroad.
Russian is a pretty difficult language and there are also many exceptions to the rules, but you probably don't get to those during one semester -:)
Talking about rules, I was really surprised how systematic the Hebrew language was, probably because it had been dead for a couple of millennia, so not too many rules got messed up
3 semesters of Russian in undergrad and I can tell you with absolute certainty there are so many rules that break the rules it's like a sieve attempting to be a bowl. Russian is gnarly and full of oddities like every other language.
I see there are mostly covert Russians around. I feel the only Anglo - Saxon in here -:)It might be a bit gnarly when Putin orders his chief-of-staff to conquer some more territory, but probably much more pleasant when Milla Jovovich sings something -:)
Meanwhile, back to advertising - about 4300 views to date, no clicks. Owen, it's looking more and more like I may learn a $75 lesson from all this. Ya know - if anyone from the Goodreads staff happens to see this - it's bad for revenue if your ads don't work. Word gets around - this is a social networking site after all. As long as that money is already committed - maybe there's a more effective way to find potential buyers.
- Greg
Why, can't you withdraw?BTW, where am I/someone supposed to see your ad anyway, if they have 340 pages of sponsored ads or is it supposed to pop up for some members basing on certain criteria?
Looks like the ads display on the top right of the screen. Goodreads probably selects them at random, probably with a formula for what kind of books I told GR I like. The odds of my ad displaying probably go up the more I pay for clicks. But here's a challenge - the ads in this thread are at the very top of the screen. I'm a bunch of posts down at the bottom and unless I drag the scroll bar up to the top, I don't even know an ad is displaying here. Yet it probably counts as an ad view for two books named "Thirty Nine Sixty" and "Autumn Fire" advdertised on this page.
I see these ads are hardly noticeable and it's probably good for better consumer's experience, but bad for advertisers.Want me to click a couple of times, so you'll see some numbers replacing '0'?-:)
Eventually you would probably get your clicks..
Did anyone try the ads of kuforum.co.uk and can share some experience? The ads there seem to be quite manifasting
Nah - if you see a Bullseye Breach ad, only click on it if you want to buy the book. Those ad clicks cost money. But follow the link in this thread to visit my landing page early and often. Tell everyone you know about it and have them visit too!Here, I'll paste in another link to the landing page right here:
http://www.bullseyebreach.com/do-rece...
And a quick subject matter poll - Owen says most of the Goodreads population doesn't care about all these breaches of our personal information. Is that really true? Am I shouting into the wind?
- Greg
Greg wrote: "Nah - if you see a Bullseye Breach ad, only click on it if you want to buy the book. Those ad clicks cost money. But follow the link in this thread to visit my landing page early and often. Tell..."Greg, as Nik said, I might have been being too categorical in my statement there. I offered that more as a potential explanation, as opposed to result of observation. Interest is hard to determine.
For example, in our sub-genre, there are a lot of very popular books. I see them show up on people's favorites lists a lot, and they sell well. But I don't see a lot of active groups for this sub-genre, the way I do for others (like romance).
So my guess is that the people who like our sub-genre are less "group oriented" and probably less likely to click an ad here. I think they go by recommendations instead. It might be that your market and ours share similar traits -- that would be my guess anyway.
Does GR keep your $75 even if you get no clicks? That does not seem quite right. We did the Amazon PPC program for $150 and after 1000 impressions without a single click, we ended the ad. We were charged nothing. Amazon didn't keep that money in the program. It seems odd that GR could just take people's money and hold it forever. I'd think there would have to be a limit to that.
If there isn't, that certainly needs to be made widely known (and agitated about, IMO).
Greg,NO! You're not shouting into the wind! Data breaches are a major concern. At least those of us living in Northern VA near the nation's capital tend to think so. All that info stolen from OPM...shouldn't have happened!
I had plenty to say about the OPM breach. Good people may die from that one. And that news barely made a blip here in Minnesota.http://www.infrasupport.com/the-chine...
- Greg
Greg wrote: "Meanwhile, back to advertising - about 4300 views to date, no clicks. Owen, it's looking more and more like I may learn a $75 lesson from all this. Ya know - if anyone from the Goodreads staff ..."
Good point.
I will be organizing a book giveaway for my book, through Goodreads, in conjunction with another site.I suggest reading Sell,Design & Tour Your Book:200 eBook Promotion sites that increase Amazon sales, by Greg Strandberg
Hey, Jack. Do you know if Goodreads will let authors with erotic content in their novels do a pay per click? Amazon prohibits it. My novel's Sci Fi with steamy bits so I'm out of luck on Amazon.
Nicole wrote: "Hey, Jack. Do you know if Goodreads will let authors with erotic content in their novels do a pay per click? Amazon prohibits it. My novel's Sci Fi with steamy bits so I'm out of luck on Amazon."Butting in: I'm not sure, but I think the book has to be classified as erotica on Amazon. A lot of books have those bits, but aren't considered erotica.
Thanks, Owen. You are welcome to weigh in. They are only a piece of the book, but those sections are truly erotic. Book is called "I Know How You Feel: The Sensate." The free sample on Amazon has one such scene in it, so you can have a look at the end of Ch2. Tell me if you think is needs to be classified as erotica.
Nicole wrote: "Thanks, Owen. You are welcome to weigh in. They are only a piece of the book, but those sections are truly erotic. Book is called "I Know How You Feel: The Sensate." The free sample on Amazon has o..."I read it, and saw that your book is currently classified as erotica. Based on what I read (and I have no idea what my opinion is worth here), my impression is this is not erotica. It's a story that has a strong erotic element[s], but so does a lot of romance.
I'd suggest taking a look at the books it's currently associated with. Do you think the people who read those will enjoy yours? If not, I'd suggest changing catagories.
I'm happy to discuss this further, if you'd like. In that case, send me private message.
Looks like my ad is settling in at around 1000 views per day. About 5400 views so far, but 0 clicks. I'll let it go a few more days before doing anything drastic.
If a 'view' is when it appears on somebody's screen, then it's not surprising the view/click ratio should be enormous. I must have ads presented to me all the time and probably considered as legit view, but I never truly see them, only when I looked for them on purpose yesterday. Maybe others have a sharper eye though-:)Anyway you might give it a longer period of time before making conclusions
Does it still count as a view when an ad is displayed but blocked by AdBlocker?
Nik wrote: "If a 'view' is when it appears on somebody's screen, then it's not surprising the view/click ratio should be enormous...."I agree, what is a view. As I type this right now, if I were to scroll waaaaay up to the top of the page, there is an ad, but I never saw it because when I opened the link for this notification I was automatically brought to the bottom of the page (thus never seeing the top of the page). Does that count as a view because the ad is on the page? As well, even when I do visit a page at the top and there are ads, I usually don't even notice them.
Isabel wrote: "Does it still count as a view when an ad is displayed but blocked by AdBlocker?"I believe it does. A "view" or an "impression" (they mean the same thing) is anytime the server servers the ad to a page. An ad blocker is a client-side ap runninginthe browser -- it doesn't communicate with the server, so the server doesn't know it running.
Lisa wrote: "I agree, what is a view. As I type this right now, if I were..."
Lisa: Indeed. Those are among the factors that explain why ads don't get clicked.
And ad blockers probably don't block GR ads anyway - how would an ad blocker know? From the browser point of view, the ads are just graphics served up by the same GR page as the rest of the content, so as far as the browser knows, the ads are just part of the same page. But - as Isabel said - nobody even sees the ads anyway cuz they're stuck way up at the top of the pages and we're a bazillion comments down. That ad stuff is in beta - maybe I should send some feedback to the GR folks about that. The ads should float on the page so they stay visible. Or at least somehow display so readers see them. Maybe they can insert in-between comments on posts in discussion threads. Or in a small sidebar that stays on the screen. I know ads are annoying, but if they help pay for a free website, they're tolerable. Especially if I'm paying for the ad. :)
If GR doesn't do something about this, I'm going to scream for my money back, nobody will buy GR ads, and GR will lose a bunch of potential revenue.
Ad blockers do block goodreads. At least mine does. Had to turn it off to see the ads.
Greg wrote: "And ad blockers probably don't block GR ads anyway - how would an ad blocker know? From the browser point of view, the ads are just graphics served up by the same GR page as the rest of the content..."The ads are scripts, a flash container, or iframes. An ad blocker can just disable the the script, or kill the iframe or the flash. That will block most ads.
Ah - thanks. I learn something new every day. - Greg
My ad blocker blocks Goodreads ads. Also, I've been on some websites that asked me to turn off my ad blocker to help support the website. So they at least some websites can detect it.
Ken wrote: "My ad blocker blocks Goodreads ads. Also, I've been on some websites that asked me to turn off my ad blocker to help support the website. So they at least some websites can detect it."I've seen a notice like that occassionally also, although I don't use ad blockers, so it might be generic. But modern browsers might be more "chatty" than they used to be.
Mod
Woo hoo! Big news! 10,038 views and one - count 'em - one ad click!!! I'm somebody! The phonebooks are here! One person clicked on my ad!
Congratulations, anyway! At least it's a starterI've made a quick math and the good news is, that if view/click rate remains the same, you can advertise a very long term with 75$ - approximately 3,750,000 views
An update. I'm up to around 33,000 impressions with 2, count 'em, 2 clicks. After going back and forth a few times with Goodreads Support, I'm trying a different approach. I paused the original ad not targeting anyone and now I have a few ads tageting different genres and authors. So anyone looking for, say, a Tom Clancy book might see my ad. I'll give this a few more days. Hopefully fewer but worthwhile impressions and more clicks.
These numbers are ridiculous. Hope with the targeted ads, you'd have much better rates and not only clicks, but some Sales too.
It's never a waste to refresh some Russian classics.
You've got those pretty right, except maybe for Timur, being more Tatar Asian and Arkady - Jewish Russian and the absence of Anatoliy, Piotr and Stepan is a bit striking, other than that - all is good -:)
Thanks and have a nice holiday