1984
discussion
A question on books in school
I'm going to tiptoe around the subject of censorship in books because it seems everyones opinions are pretty well set... and well stated. However, I'm a little surprised to see the subject of age appropriate books caught up in the censorship conversation. I do understand that perhaps "age-appropriatness" can be used as a disingenuous excuse for censorship but it doesn't seem that is what the teacher in the original poster's story had in mind. She felt that the thematic matter of the story was beyond a fourth grader's comprehension. She was worried that "he wouldn't understand what it was really about". I can hardly speak about Flags of our Fathers (I've never read it) but certainly this is something to consider with children reading. It is important not to waste their time or (worse) turn them off reading by giving them books that they can not, at their age, maturity and education, understand.So there has to be such a thing as age appropriate books. Literature is a discipline like science or mathematics or history; you wouldn't teach a child advanced physics or calculus or the Franco-Prussian war as pre-curser to World War I. Just as a child needs to learn how to learn in other subjects he must learn how to read books. Of course every child does this at different paces (I, for one, never reached the point where I could figure out calculus) so age appropriate anything has to be flexible - but it still certainly has to exist.
Somerandom wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "And that brings up a question that is currently being asked as to whether parents have the right to restrict their children from vaccinations? Michelle Bachmann ..."I think I would like your teacher. :)
I do agree giving kids alternate books is probably the best of a bad set of choices and I certainly agree that a child may be handed more problems with peers due to being removed from reading a given book. My one issue with that choice is what happens if you have ten parents that want ten different books for their children and you can see it becomes unwieldy quickly.
Ned wrote: "I'm going to tiptoe around the subject of censorship in books because it seems everyones opinions are pretty well set... and well stated. However, I'm a little surprised to see the subject of age a..."Well said.
When I wrote my first post, part of my musing was where the line is and when does it cross into censorship, if it does. The teacher was not about censorship, but about making sure my child was not over his head. That is part of her job and I am sure more than one parent would not have even know what their child was reading. I am all about letting kids have access to books and school along with libraries are a great place to provide these books when they are not affordable.
What scares me in some of this discussion is even when parents are making decisions for the best of reasons, you can end up with an empty school library. It is even much harder if you live in an area that has one particular mores that you do not agree with on children's reading habits.
An empty school library the result of parents making decisions for the "best of reasons".Really? You're sticking with that?
Boo, I say. Boo.
Papaphilly wrote: "Ned wrote: "I'm going to tiptoe around the subject of censorship in books because it seems everyones opinions are pretty well set... and well stated. However, I'm a little surprised to see the subj..."So what would be the big deal if a book is over a child's head? If he derives enjoyment from the book there is no harm. How many of us understood all the innuendos and puns in Rocky the Flying Squirrel when we saw the cartoon series when we first watched it. Or take Lewis Carroll's novels which could be read on one level by children and on another by adults.
Most literature is multi-level. Even here on Goodreads, we have readers whose understanding of some of the books discussed may be more limited than others, yet they will enjoy it. It's hardly a consideration for me that a child has to understand a novel 80 percent to make it worthwhile for him. How many of us have read books in our teenage years and only after a second reading decades later, had added interpretation to the novel? Considering heated discussion about CATCHER IN THE RYE we evince a number of readers who didn't enjoy the book in their teen years but gained fresh insights as the salad days were far gone, and others who loved the book from the very beginning.
Education needs not to be entertaining but sufficiently so to stimulate inquiring minds. Too many dry books and one's love for reading will be dispelled. Mine was. The literature program I underwent turned me away from reading for about 10 years. Having to read THE POWER AND THE GLORY and NADJA were horrific experiences. I am sure others enjoyed it. And yet there must be some provision as to choice in reading material for students and by them.
I recall my high school doing exactly that for the summer reading assignment. The school handed out a list of books they wanted us to choose from. Out of the 70 plus books each of us was required to read two books and come in with a book report the first week of class. I chose WAR AND PEACE, partly as its inclusion absolved me from choosing a second book,partly because I was on a Russian Literature kick. I never regretted reading it.
The role of the school is education. Ignorance is its opposite so I take exception to one of the poster's remarks that it should be an option. No, it is not an option. Should a school district, superintendent or principal decide on a book list, students nor parents should not have the option to decline the exercise. That is ignorance.
I personally hate PERFUME by Patrick Susskind. I find it one of the most morally repulsive novels written not for its serial crimes but for its portraying of the antagonist as a protagonist with Messianic qualities. The orgy scene was liberating and wonderful, but making it an addition to the anti hero's personal qualities hardly qualified the novel as a moral lesson in serial murder. And yet I was required to read the book for my last college literature course. I hated the book despite its originality, it's wondrous scenery and fine writing. I told the professor as such and he misunderstood my objection, saying that yes, the paperback cover was tawdry, but I should not judge a book by is sensationalist cover. That was hardly the point and I am surprised that readers ignore the latent message of the novel.
As for immunization, no, no adult should have the right to refuse his child's immunization. No adult has the right to expose his or her child to the danger of disease. They simply, categorically, do NOT, nor SHOULD have the right to put their child in danger. As for whether a child not attending public school, that argument is also suspect as children commingle at public swimming pools, parks, playgrounds, and other places whether attending the same school or not.They pass each other at the shopping mall, at the beach, at McDonalds. A child not immunized has the potential to expose a child awaiting immunization to his harmful bacteria.
An interesting scenario has developed here in at my local private library(outside of the USA) in which the assistant director is removing most evangelizing children's books from the shelves. She is an atheist and has her own agenda. I don't particularly care much one way or the other, but it's curious that in most communities it is fundamental religious groups that are doing the censoring, but here in my own community it is an atheist who is doing the censoring. The books in question are pretty bad, so I don't have much in the way to protest.
Geoffrey wrote: "An interesting scenario has developed here in at my local private library(outside of the USA) in which the assistant director is removing most evangelizing children's books from the shelves. She is..."If it was a public library, you should be unhappy that she is removing books, not because you agree or disagree with the books, but because it is wrong. However, it is a private library and they get to decide the rules for their private stock.
Your statement on who is doing the banning this time exemplifies my earlier statement of how both sides censor.
Geoffrey wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Ned wrote: "I'm going to tiptoe around the subject of censorship in books because it seems everyones opinions are pretty well set... and well stated. However, I'm a little surpri..."I'm don't think I would ever take a book that a child was enjoying away from him or her. In fact, I would use it to inform the books that I steered that child to reading next. But there are books that are objectively beyond a child's comprehension. I was raised on a steady diet of Hardy Boys and those Illustrated Classic books that had simplified story and a picture on every other page and I adored them. They taught me the joy of reading and eventually lead me to more complex works. If I read Borges in 8th grade (because no one can tell me what I should or should not read and Labyrinth has a cool silvery cover) and decide that he is "dry" and "pretentious" I've done the artist, the art, and (most importantly) myself a disservice.
As for assigned readings I also had summer lists that asked me to read a few of a longer list of books. This worked great and can be a very successful example of age appropriate literature. The school has, essentially decided upon books it thinks that would be valuable for the student to read at that grade. But in a classroom setting, at some point choice and taste have to come into question. An English teacher must do more than give reading lists, he or she has to teach the books. So it's impractical for every student in the class to be reading a different book. At some point the teacher must choose. The student might not like the book but that is a taste issue (for both the teacher and the student), certainly not a censorship issue! In your case it was the Power and the Glory; my boogeyman book from high school was Grapes of Wrath. (I am surprised though that you consider Power and the Glory dry - while I liked the book I can think of many negative criticisms of it but dry is not one of them!).
One question: what is an "evangelizing children's book"? Just never really come across the term!
Speaking as a teacher who has taught fourth grade in the past, I have a curriculum that I am mandated to follow. I also have administrators to answer to. Therefore, I do have to "censor" (I prefer to use the words "monitor" or "supervise") what children are reading in class to some extent. Else, I'll have classrooms full of children reading "Captain Underpants", "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" and "Dork Diaries". There are certain books that are fine for pleasure reading on your own time and then there are books that are good for school reading. "Flag of Our Fathers" is generally considered a high school levelled book. I can actually get in trouble from administrators during an observation or an informal visit if they believe that a child is reading a book that is inappropriate from a content standpoint or too far ahead/too far below the child's current reading level. It doesn't really matter what the parent says or wants in that instance. I'm not losing my job over a child's reading choice and I am not wasting time with filing grievances and union hearings....especially over something that they are free to read on their own time.
If the child's reading level supports that he/she can handle the book (AS DETERMINED BY FORMAL READING ASSESSMENTS AND STANDARDIZED TEST SCORES ....not just based on parental say-so--because if it becomes an issue, I am going to lose any union hearing if their scores don't actually back up that they can handle the book in question) AND it is age appropriate and meets the curriculum guidelines, I don't have any problems with it.
I'm glad I got my education long ago, before the situation got this silly.
New American History textbooks approved in Texas describe the Civil War as "the War of Northern Aggression". No mention of Jim Crow...the Klan. "State Rights" prominent, slavery a side issue.But you gotta respect them 'thar Texans right to be ignorant. They's jus' doing raht by they own. No harm. No foul.
I mean..., it's just a book, raht?
E.D. wrote: "New American History textbooks approved in Texas describe the Civil War as "the War of Northern Aggression". No mention of Jim Crow...the Klan. "State Rights" prominent, slavery a side issue.But ..."
http://www.glencoe.com/sec/socialstud...
Ned wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Ned wrote: "I'm going to tiptoe around the subject of censorship in books because it seems everyones opinions are pretty well set... and well stated. However, I'..."Did I say The Power and the Glory was dry. That was hardly my principal complaint if I did. (I am too lazy to go back to previous posting)
I thought that the priest's depiction vacillated between archetype and stereotype, slipping into the latter mode too often. My closest friend in that class felt the same exact way about the book as I did. I was a bit surprised as although many of my friends shared identical tastes, few had similar complaints.
Greene did write another novel about Mexico and critics have generally agreed that book was studded with stereotypes. As for TGOW, it was one of my favorite and still is. It is a tremendous book showing exactly the trials and tribulations of those whose lives spin out of control out of no fault of their own and how they persevere through keeping the family unit intact and their sense of humanity. Steinbeck is my favorite American author with Hemingway a very close second.
Mochaspresso wrote: "http://www.houstonisd.org/Page/42658http://www.glencoe.com/sec/socialstud..."
I'm confused a bit. Is this the textbook mentioned in the Wash Post article from a few days ago that's being distributed this fall..., or one used by the academy highlighted? Or evidence that not all Texans are wackjobs? Which is a given...as long as there's an Austin Free Zone. Chapter 19's highlight is interesting. So is 14's.
I'm hoping you know, as I'm loathe to backtrack an article that's already been aggregated. :}
Papaphilly wrote: "This is about morals not politics."Naah, it's not about either; it's just another endless debate over individual vs. collective rights... i.e. which end of the rifle are you on
Political power grows from the barrel of a gun, eh?BTW..."....do not collect anymore methamphetamine or Jesus."
Priceless. :}
E.D. wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: "http://www.houstonisd.org/Page/42658http://www.glencoe.com/sec/socialstud..."
I'm confused a bit. Is this the textbook mentioned in..."
I've noticed that media is not always accurate in reporting some facts When districts are choosing a curriculum, they often review several publishers. Just because they reviewed a textbook, it doesn't mean that particular textbook is ultimately the one that gets chosen. ItThe article also leads one to believe that the entire state of Texas is actually using the exact same textbook. This is not the case and it is not anywhere in any state in the US to my knowledge. A few cuckoo districts doing something crazy do not and is not and should not be indicative of what an entire state is doing.
Btw, some major textbook publishers tailor their books according to a specific state's standards. Sometimes even to a specific school district's standard. They also make specialized versions for private and parochial schools too.
All districts review several different textbooks before deciding on a curriculum. The article leads the reader to believe that since the district reviewed a particular textbook, that this is definitely what is going to be taught in the schools or that this is what the district wants to teach. This is not necessarily true.
If you want to know what is being taught in schools, why use potentially biased media article as a primary source? Why not go directly to the schools themselves? Many schools districts have digital copies of the textbooks that they are using online. The link I provided was just an example. Some districts post their standards online, too.
Mansfield, TX
http://www.mansfieldisd.org/page.cfm?...
Mochaspresso,Thanks for the wise words. I do recognize the leeway independent districts have. I am , however, aware that Texas makes decisions on a statewide basis. SBOE panel of 15, I think. Do they just exist as a "suggestive choices" entity? That's not what my understanding is..,although, I might be totally wrong. Seems senseless to elect members to a state board that has no power.
Individual districts or teachers may be free to work around what they find "slanted", I would hope,...but, are you saying they can ignore and not use the books filtered through the SBOE panel?
That definitely contradicts not only the recent WP article, but a myriad of sources I have seen. :}
Just hit Columbia Journalism Review...and....dangnabbit..., ain't there an article about media ignoring a law passed in Texas allowing local districts and charters to purchase books not on the SBOE list!Wise words indeed, Mochaspresso. Thanks.
Sadly, the SBOE still exists. But it's not the only choice anymore.
Texas. How enlightening. :}
Mochaspresso wrote: "Speaking as a teacher who has taught fourth grade in the past, I have a curriculum that I am mandated to follow. I also have administrators to answer to. Therefore, I do have to "censor" (I pref..."I appreciate your candor, please tell me, if you had the choice of not having to worry about losing your job, would you still censor books? I am not judging you because you seem to be in between a rock and a hard place. I notice you mention a few very popular books and you do not seem to approve of them. I grant you they are not what I call classics, but they seem to get children reading them in great numbers and that has to be good. The year in question for my son, the district was reading The Cabin Faced West. The district chose it for the entire fourth grade. the only reason I remember is because my son complained how bad it was the entire three months it took them to read it.
Out of curiosity, does your school have a reading hour when the kids can read any books or is your school allow only books that the district chooses? The reason I ask is that you mention that you can get into trouble if a child has an "inappropriate book" for the reasons you write. I am hard pressed to imagine you get into trouble if a parent gives a book to their child. I am not discounting your statement, only it is an alien idea to me.
Did you have to deal with many parent unhappy with the choices of books?
Mkfs wrote: "I'm glad I got my education long ago, before the situation got this silly."I wonder if the situation was always this bad, but we are only hearing about it in the last thirty years due to 24 hour news coverage.
Duane wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "This is about morals not politics."Naah, it's not about either; it's just another endless debate over individual vs. collective rights... i.e. which end of the rifle are you on"
Oh? The debate you just described certainly includes mores and politics. Just watch any news channel. As for the end of the gun comment, please elaborate. Do you mean proverbial or literal and what does this have to do with books in school.
I find this Texas situation fascinating, on multiple fronts. Citizens and legislators taking action by law to counter the ignorant actions of the SBOE panel is the perfect example of what I meant by "not tolerating ignorance in the public sphere". The power of the panel is what drew the nutbags to it, and I am pleased to see them restrained--though not eliminated.That this victory for common sense and civic responsibility is not being publicized due to the desire to "score anti-Texan points" angers me. It is counter-productive.
We have Cruz, Gohmert, Perry, et al.., for running up the score. This law being passed--in Texas--is cause for celebration.
Papaphilly wrote: "I appreciate your candor, please tell me, if you had the choice of not having to worry about losing your job, would you still censor books? I am not judging you because you seem to be in between a rock and a hard place. I notice you mention a few very popular books and you do not seem to approve of them. I grant you they are not what I call classics, but they seem to get children reading them in great numbers and that has to be good. It's not so much that I don't approve of those books. I just do not think that they are appropriate for school and my reasoning is more from an educational standpoint. Where I am from (NY), fourth grade is a very important testing year. A great deal rides on the Grade 4 ELA exam. Everything from the school's overall rating to my overall rating as an "effective" vs. "ineffective" teacher rides on how the students perform. The reading level of the passages on that test tend to be far more complex in every way (theme, vocabulary, sentence structure etc.) than most of those very popular books. The test has poetry passages. It has non-fiction passages to read. Those books are fine for fun reading, but if students spend the entire year WITHOUT being exposed to more complex and varied types of reading, they typically do not do as well on those exams. So, as I said, to a certain extent, I do need to monitor what they read. They need to read from a wide variety of literature and it can't always be based on what the child "wants to read" or on "what gets them reading." That's fine for pleasure reading, but this will not always be the case for academic reading.
The year in question for my son, the district was reading The Cabin Faced West. The district chose it for the entire fourth grade. the only reason I remember is because my son complained how bad it was the entire three months it took them to read it.
Out of curiosity, does your school have a reading hour when the kids can read any books or is your school allow only books that the district chooses? The reason I ask is that you mention that you can get into trouble if a child has an "inappropriate book" for the reasons you write. I am hard pressed to imagine you get into trouble if a parent gives a book to their child. I am not discounting your statement, only it is an alien idea to me.
My school doesn't have assigned reading in the sense that the whole school, grade or class is reading the exact same book at the same time. In fact, the school actually frowns upon that from a curriculum and policy standpoint. The students choose books from an approved list that is determined by the child's reading level and by theme/unit. Then, they read them in small groups called "book clubs" or "literature circles". Besides the book club reading, they also have DEAR time (Drop Everything and Read). During that time, they can read whatever they want BUT it has to be on or close to their current instructional reading level. The children's reading levels are tested and tracked throughout the school year and this information is provided to parents. I suspect that may be why we don't typically get many situations where parents are sending kids to school with a book that is THAT far above a child's stated reading level.
Did you have to deal with many parent unhappy with the choices of books?
I once had a Muslim family object to "Charlotte's Web" because of references to slaughtering pigs. This is not typical or a norm for that community, though. At least, I don't believe so. That family was probably a bit wonky, methinks.
I've had parents try to object to a child's reading level results but in every single instance that this has happened, I show the parent the test that determines their reading level and retest the child in front of the parent, if necessary. The reading level testing is very straight forward. The child reads a passage and any mistakes in reading are discreetly noted. The child has to be able to read the passage with a minimum of 90% reading accuracy and they must be able to answer the comprehension questions about what they read accurately. If they cannot, they are retested at a lower level until they reach a level where they can. It works the same with higher reading levels. If they can read the passage with no errors and answer all of the questions correctly, we keep going up in level until we reach the level where they cannot and that is their "instructional reading level". My school uses the Fountas and Pinell Guided Reading leveling system. Some schools use lexile levels and some use DRA. However, the method of testing to determine the child's reading level is essentially exactly the same across all of those systems and they all correlate with one another for the most part.
By the way, I don't know if I have made this point clear, but when it comes to kids and reading, I make a distinct difference between pleasure reading and academic/instructional reading for school. I don't think pleasure reading necessarily needs to be censored. Popular books like "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" are fine for pleasure reading. However, academic reading is very different. The book that you mentioned, "The Cabin Faced West" is historical fiction. I assume that this book was probably chosen because of the genre and because it may thematically tie into what the children might be learning in another subject, such as Social Studies. Your child may not have liked it, but the author is an award winning author and the book does have excellent educational merit. Of course, there are other books available that can accomplish the same things...but I think the reasoning for not wanting to read a particular book that has been assigned should be a little more than "because I don't like it."
Mochaspresso wrote: "By the way, I don't know if I have made this point clear, but when it comes to kids and reading, I make a distinct difference between pleasure reading and academic/instructional reading for school...."From your description, I assume that your district breaks reading into two separate categories. Physical reading and comprehension. I think that is fine because reading is both mechanical and understanding based. I think both are important aspects of reading. I agree there are books for pleasure and books for academics. I also see that most books for pleasure are not nearly as respected as they should be when it comes to kids. Teaching the pleasure of reading is critical at a young age. The rest will comes as time moves, but if reading is not pleasurable, it makes it that much harder to create readers.
As for The Cabin Faced West, the only reason I remember it is because my son complained so much about it. It stands out in my mind because he never complained about books. I am not knocking the book or the author, just noting the moment. Most of his complaints were that the books were too easy and the class read too slow. He was far ahead of the class. In the fourth grade he was reading Flags of Our Fathers and had no problem with the book. He would have passed your tests without a problem. I was not as worried about the physical aspect than I was about comprehension. We discussed the book and he understood it very well, which did catch me off guard. I figured that book would have been at his outer most limits for comprehension, but would have been fine for his physical reading abilities. You can still build a great vocabulary that way.
You made me smile when you described parents complaints with their children's reading levels. I remember much the same when others saw what my son was reading and insisted their children could do the same and didn't understand when they couldn't. Every year at meet the teacher night I would tell the teacher my son was a genius and wait patiently for the look. I then would tell them "I know, I know, you hear it from every parent, except in my case it is true." After a few weeks they understood and everything was worked out. He read what he wanted as long as he did his work first, which was fine by me. By the first report card (we had to pick them up) the conversation usually went something like he read all of my books including the list we are going to read for the year. I used to laugh and tell the teacher that I would send him in with books from home.
Papaphilly wrote: "Somerandom wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "And that brings up a question that is currently being asked as to whether parents have the right to restrict their children from vaccinations?..."There is a curriculum, you know? A specific set of books that are more or less mandatory. There's even a few alternatives for the overtly strict head in the sand parents. And if the kid does excel, there are programs in schools (there was in mine) for advanced math or English or even a grade skip if necessary.
Although I guess, to be fair, I come from a Commonwealth education background. The American Education System is slightly different, seemingly focused more on standardization. (As is my understanding. Of course I could be wrong.) So perhaps my views come from a different standard (not necessarily better or worse, just different) of education and responsibility of the teacher. Like the fact that I keep hearing about politically and occasionally even religious agendas on the part of teachers from my American friends and family. I don't know if that's like a thing or not, but it's practically unheard of where I live. To the point where it can cost a teacher their job to even mention such things, outside of academic debate.
I do think in most cases a teacher should be allowed to overrule a parent in academic matters, if they are going by their duty of care standards. After consultation, of course.
My teachers told us something in what we over here call "Parade" or "Assembly" at the start of High School, which I think sums up a teacher's responsibility well.
They said, as teachers, we have to act as your parents in school because your parents can't be here. We have to make decisions that reflect your parent's decisions as best we can, we have to ensure your safety just as a parent would and we have to discipline you as a parent would. But we are also not your parents, we are your teachers. We are not here to bend to the whims of every parent, we are here to teach you, to guide you, not to shelter you, not to pander to you like a spoilt little brat. You might hate us, your parent's might even hate us from time to time. But we are ultimately responsible for your care when you're at school. And we are the ones who are going to be making decisions for you based on that duty of care.
(I may be paraphrasing that a little, it's been a while since year 8 lol)
Somerandom wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Somerandom wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "And that brings up a question that is currently being asked as to whether parents have the right to restrict their children..."There are certainly stories about teachers proselytizing in school and that is forbidden and some do lose their jobs. There are also teacher that have political agendas, but that is usually in college and that can cause problems too. Mostly, teachers work hard in difficult circumstances to teach children.
Papaphilly wrote: "There are also teacher that have political agendas, but that is usually in college "I want to move to your planet!!
Duane wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "There are also teacher that have political agendas, but that is usually in college "I want to move to your planet!!"
Coming from a guy that writes about the end of a gun, I will take that with a grain of salt. You still haven't explained about that comment either.
Papaphilly wrote: "You still haven't explained about that comment either. "It's pretty straightforward.
A gun clearly has a right end and a wrong end. One should minimize the amount of time one spends in front of the wrong end. If that entails siding with the group that holds the guns, so be it.
Mkfs wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "You still haven't explained about that comment either. "It's pretty straightforward.
A gun clearly has a right end and a wrong end. One should minimize the amount of time one ..."
Except he also noted it to the collective vs. the individual. I would like him to explain that since he put it in the thread.
Sheltered from reading Mao, eh? Probably for "the best of reasons".
Why bother explaining myself when everyone else is doing such a commendable job of it?"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We wouldn't dream of letting our enemies have guns - Why then should we let them have ideas?" - J. Djugashvili
Duane wrote: "Why bother explaining myself when everyone else is doing such a commendable job of it?"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We wouldn't dream of letting our enemies have guns - Why then should we..."
Because I asked you. If you are not up to the task that is fine.
Hey! I'm just working on credits for my Duaneish As A Second Language class.....
Yeah, yeah, nice try. Make it look like an accident.You're undoubtedly doing "Research" for a Ph.D. in "Xenolinguistics" or something. And with a degree like that they won't *dare* ask you what you know... And the CIA would hire you in an instant!
try and fool ME willya...
I think parents always have the right to censor a book they deem inappropriate for whatever reason. It is their prerogative. Just like i think parents have the right and should exercise it more to limit TV shows.Should schools ban books?
The Catcher in the Rye book was mentioned on this thread. I think that Salinger considered his audience an adult or older audience. But books can be banned in other ways by the book being interpreted in one way. In this case I am talking about The Catcher in the Rye specifically. When a book is discused literally and not explored as an allegory it is going to be evaluated and a meaning develop that is the same as banning the book.
Another words testing a child on a book to create a certain outcome of thinking is "thought control" as well.
To give a different point of view of The Catcher in the Rye see:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
What makes you think a certain outcome is expected?? Students are quizzed on specifics of the book. Identify the characters as pairing them with the quotes. What did that character do after the antagonist insulted him? Yes, those are certain outcomes. But that is not what you are discussing nor should it be. Your talking about interpretation and that is subjective. If the interpretation is a poor one but ably defended, the teacher should and will if he is a good one, mark the paper well. Defend it poorly with bad logic, incoherent speech and improper grammar and the student will be penalized. Make assertions whether correct or not without backup, and you will lose out on points. That is a good teacher. If you have not gotten good teachers, I am sorry. If you consistently didn't do well in English literature, ask yourself whether you made cogent arguments for your points or were you all over the page.So Cosmic, I ask you to clarify your assertion, ¨When a book is discussed literally and not explored as an allegory it is going to be evaluated and a meaning develop that is the same as banning the book¨ How is it the same as banning the book? I haven't even mentioned the incoherence and grammatical problems with your posting. Discused has three s's to it, it should read discussed. Then you have a dangling clause,¨it is going to be evaluated¨ and as for ¨a meaning develop¨ is incoherent. Perhaps you are trying to say ¨meaning is revealed/explored/?
Your posting suggest that you think that all books should be explored as allegories. Is that what you think, but if so, you are sadly mistaken. Not all books are allegories. Most are not.
Geoffrey wrote: "What makes you think a certain outcome is expected?? Students are quizzed on specifics of the book. Identify the characters as pairing them with the quotes. What did that character do after the ant..."Thank you Geoffrey for your thoughtful response.
When a book is framed in such a way that it leads the students to discourse about that book as a "coming of age" or "teenage angst" in my opinion it creates a certain bias. Even when certain questions are on a test and other significant points left off it is intentional. If i were going to teach the Catcher in the Rye i am sure it would be different than you. But when our public school system dictates that certain things be noted and others be over looked or discarded it is a form of censorship, in my opinion.
What would be better is to teach children how to read a book. How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading. Then based on that read the books and discuss them in class.
How I believe it is done is....we have this much time, this is what is going to be on the standardized tests...lets make sure we cover those.
A lot of what we are tested on in school is to see whether we are in line with the "dope" we are given.
Some of the best examples of this is when it comes to global warming and the "belief" that people have a huge influence on the weather. So should science books/articles that discredit what is being taught in the classroom be allowed in the school library? World this work against the educational system? Should those books be brought to class and discussed? Could the teachers /students decided that the textbook was wrong? Then the answers on the test might reflect the current science rather than the pseudo science in textbook.
Not quite convinced? I will give examples if needed.
Jesus told me to tell you he thinks you're precious. :}
Duane wrote: "Obviously the task is so simple, I am able to delegate it without even trying..."Nice dodge, but as I said, if you are not up to it...
Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "What makes you think a certain outcome is expected?? Students are quizzed on specifics of the book. Identify the characters as pairing them with the quotes. What did that character..."As for global warning, please keep in mind that the statistics that Obama quotes, eg. the 97% is what the government came up with. They identified 79 American climatologists, people whose primary task and training was climatology, not weather predictors, meteorologists or physicists, and out of that 79, 77 categorically stated that global warming was occurring and its greatest cause was man made. Other people have taken exception to this and have done their own studies but have not included these 79. One report was the Oregon Report, which included 31,000 people, most of whom had not done any research or reading on the subject and whose knowledge consisted of listening to news reports. These numbers were doctors, astrophysicists, engineers, etc. people who had been trained in science but had never received training in climatology.
Science is a very diverse field. You wouldn't go to an engineer to have your teeth extracted, but both dentists and engineers are trained in science. Nor would you go to an electrician to have your appendix removed. And yet electricians are trained in science, again.
As for the report itself, the Oregon report, the names of the people who signed on to their insistence that global warning was not man made, critics have tried relentlessly to gain the addresses of those who signed on. The originator of that report has refused to give that information, so the critics have gone ahead and contacted people on their own, choosing names in which there were no duplicates for the degrees supplied by the report, and guess what? Of the 30 people selected for double checking,six people changed their mind when they did more extensive reading into the subject, prompted by the report, several said they never signed on at all and had never seen the report.
The report itself consists of a 12 page fact sheet that was given to the respondents which purportedly debunked man made global warning. I have read it. I strongly urge you to do the same. The fact sheets have nothing to do with global warming at all but are so abstruse that one could be fooled into believing them to be relevant. Again I urge you to read more about global warming.
Yes, the role of education is also to prepare our youngsters to their roles as citizens of the world. They need to be made aware of the problems facing them as adults, whether it be global warming,racism or infringement of their democratic freedoms. There is a wealth of information out there that substantiates the educational system's addressing these issues. Not discussing them in the classroom only encourages ignorance.
Yes, Cosmic, I believe that if a student disagrees with prevailing scientific beliefs/facts that he should be able to bring in contrary information. Under those circumstances, yes, the teacher should put an essay question on his exams, asking the students to debunk either stance and give cogent reasons as to why he doesn't or does agree with the man made cause.I recall in biology class arguing for environmental modification of the change in species, ie. mutation. My teacher was extremely disrespectful of my position and asked if I thought the giraffe example that Lamarck had given was valid.(That giraffes had developed long necks to get to the leaves on upper branches of savannah trees). It was a ridiculous example and we both knew it but I failed to come up with the one example that would have destroyed his argument, namely radioactive induced mutation. I wish I had but as a stupid 13 year old, I was intimidated by his overbearing manner.
Yes, there are bad teachers and teachers who are good and occasionally wrong. The system is not perfect as it is made up of humans.
Geoffrey wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "What makes you think a certain outcome is expected?? Students are quizzed on specifics of the book. Identify the characters as pairing them with the quotes. What did..."I have a friend that is a "believer" in "climate change" being man made. It shows a great deal of ignorance on the part of people collectively that they do not understand what actually influences the weather. When i was in school I learned about glaciers and the ice age. I wondered how did that happen then but is not happening now. I don't remember anyone explaining that.
Because i am a ham radio operator i have an interest in solar weather. My favorite site is http://www.solarham.net/
Back in the 1970's the sun usually had up to 250 sunspots on it's surface. Look at the site above and you will see there is considerably less.
In fact RT reported:
http://rt.com/news/273169-solar-cycle...
And even NASA has come out saying that we need not worry about global warming but we are headed into a Maunder Minimum.
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/Sun...
We will wish that we could heat up the world by burning more fossil fuels, but since that doesn't control or greatly influence the weather (if at all) I don't think it will help.
One person commented
"During the Jurassic Period (200 mya), average CO2 concentrations were about 1800 ppm or about 4.7 times higher than today.
The highest concentrations of CO2 during all of the Paleozoic Era occurred during the Cambrian Period, nearly 7000 ppm -- about 18 times higher than today.
The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today.
To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today -- 4400 ppm."
We think that there is a Great Wizard that gives people brains. I think everyones education is personal as we have not invented a way to keep it absolute and consistent. Some people need school to "train" them. But some of the most innovative minds and tech geniuses have chosen not to give their intellectual property away to an institution.
Another problem with a collection of "scientists" all getting together to "agree"...is that it creates herd mentality and group think. It doesn't need to be true it iust needs to be the party line. If you have ever been in a institution of scientists you will know right away that their are more scientists than their are jobs. I guess if i was a scientist and i had a family i had to support i might want to go where the money is.
When science becomes a political agenda, in my opinion it is not science. When they say this is our "position" on this it borders on a belief or "religion". In fact i think we have repalced god with science and it is just about as scientific.
This person did a great job on explaining what the Maunder Minimum looked like and what we can expect if the sun continues on its present projectory:
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/l...
Not that this person gives you a link to the party line of collective scientists. So in the name of fairness you should definitely read it and see how much is science and how much is "humbug".
What the hell do sunspots have to do with terrestrial climate?
What the hell do guns have to do with individualism?
Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "What makes you think a certain outcome is expected?? Students are quizzed on specifics of the book. Identify the characters as pairing them with the quotes. What did that character..."Cosmic wrote: "I think parents always have the right to censor a book they deem inappropriate for whatever reason. It is their prerogative. Just like i think parents have the right and should exercise it more t..."
If a parent decides they do not want their child to read a certain book or watch a certain TV show, that is that parents right, I agree. How about when that parent does not want their child to read a certain book that is taught in school?
Your thought control stand seems to point to a cabal. Is it possible for teachers to look at a book and decide to teach it from a given perspective and not have it be dishonest? Your statement stands on what is chosen to test and I agree that can lead to certain avenues of thought, but it does not preclude other avenues of thought not tested. Teacher have "X" amount of days and they have to get through the material and they have to focus on the test because it is their job on the line as well as students being evaluated. If the teacher is lucky, they may have advanced students where they can take the time to explain the intricacies of various literature, but most teachers do not have advanced students. That might be terrible to say, but it is the reality right now. As for choosing what is to be tested for standardized tests, that can certainly lead to monkeyshines, but I just do not see it as much as the lowest common denominator. I do not see these tests as a chance to prevent certain thoughts when it is easier to not teach the books in the first place.
What happens if the book is misunderstood? farenheit 451 was taught as an allegory of government censorship fro as long as I can remember and yet it is really about a warning about TV and its corrosive effects.
I do agree it is much better to teach how to read than just literal words. That way you do not miss the story for the sentences.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
A Separate Peace (other topics)
The House of the Scorpion (other topics)
Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul: 101 Stories of Life, Love and Learning (other topics)
Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See? (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
Unwind (other topics)A Separate Peace (other topics)
The House of the Scorpion (other topics)
Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul: 101 Stories of Life, Love and Learning (other topics)
Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See? (other topics)
More...
I did answer your question on Charleston. That you deny (or, at best, undervalue) the influence of ignorant ideology in the public sphere and just declare the shooter "mentally ill" is further evidence (to me) of your disjointed comprehension of the topic you, yourself, raised. Greater context applies whether you acknowledge it or not.
Read your own post (Message 45) on the previous page, then tell me again how you don't support what you said you do.
Asking if you're a Libertarian had nothing to do with book-banning, rather it arose from your ability to hold two or more contradictory opinions simultaneously. Such as arguing that public policy regarding books in public schools has nothing to do with politics. How, exactly, is that possible?
Sorry if I scare you.
Boo.