Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion: T. S. Eliot's Poetry
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Schedule and Resources
Here is a hypertext page of The Waste Land: http://eliotswasteland.tripod.comAnd The Wasteland without notes:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/...
Two websites for Four Quartets:
http://www.davidgorman.com/4Quartets/
http://www.coldbacon.com/poems/fq.html
There were some comments somewhere that Eliot was heavily influenced by the Bhagavad-Gita so I decided to read it. Would it be considered a resource? Has anyone else here read it and if so, what did you make of it?
Genni wrote: "There were some comments somewhere that Eliot was heavily influenced by the Bhagavad-Gita so I decided to read it. Would it be considered a resource? Has anyone else here read it and if so, what di..."Good, Jenni. It does enter into the poems, so maybe you can help us when you get there. I have a Kindle edition, but I'm not sure whether I'll get it read in time. The Bhagavad Gita
Genni wrote: "There were some comments somewhere that Eliot was heavily influenced by the Bhagavad-Gita so I decided to read it. Would it be considered a resource? Has anyone else here read it and if so, what di..."I've read it, and I'm just finishing up Four Quartets now, so I'm itching to talk about the Gita, and the Gospel of John, and Dante, and the myriad other influences in the poem. The way Eliot weaves this material together is really pretty amazing. But I had better wait a bit. Definitely keep it in the back of your mind!
Great, Thomas! I can hardly wait for your comments.
I've got more knowledge, scant though it is, of the Gita than I do of Eliot. So I look forward to that aspect of the discussion.
Zeke wrote: "I've got more knowledge, scant though it is, of the Gita than I do of Eliot. So I look forward to that aspect of the discussion."And we look forward to learning from you, Zeke!
Laurel wrote: "Biography...FYI, looks like Young Eliot bio is out in hardback in U.S. I just saw it at bookstore this afternoon ( and couldn't resist).
Susan wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Biography...FYI, looks like Young Eliot bio is out in hardback in U.S. I just saw it at bookstore this afternoon ( and couldn't resist)."
You're right, Susan. Thanks!
You will appreciate both poems more, I believe, if you read them with your ears as well as your eyes. Audible has an excellent recording of both read beautifully by Paul Scofield: http://www.audible.com/search/ref=a_h...
There are also a number of readings online. From this page you can access T. S. Eliot's readings of both poems, along with the written text: http://www.eliotsociety.org.uk/?page_...
There are many other recordings available. I would suggest that you start here and that you listen and read "The Wasteland" several times before our discussion begins.
http://youtu.be/LP9taUtLlYQ
This book was recommended by an Amazon reviewer of the Eliot Cliff Notes (he considered those outdated):
T. S. Eliot: The Poems
by Martin ScofieldI have it on the way in an inter-library loan.
Laurel wrote: "You will appreciate both poems more, I believe, if you read them with your ears as well as your eyes. Audible has an excellent recording of both read beautifully by Paul Scofield: http://www.audi..."
Check with your library before purchasing the audio -- I was able to borrow the reading in an MP3 file from my library. And loaded onto a non-Internet connected MP3 player (I use a Sansa Clip) it doesn't expire after the loan period; I will delete it when I'm done with it, because that's the right thing to do, but I'll keep it for the five week period.
I think you will find that you are never done with it, Everyman.
Laurel wrote: "There are also a number of readings online. From this page you can access T. S. Eliot's readings of both poems, along with the written text."Was Eliot in bad health when he made that recording? He voice sounds a little lackadaisical.
I think his health was never very good, Nemo.
I wish Eliot had stayed with just one language in his poem. The part in English is hard enough, adding in French, German, Hungarian, Italian and Latin just makes the whole thing practically incomprehensible.
Nemo wrote: "I wish Eliot had stayed with just one language in his poem. The part in English is hard enough, adding in French, German, Hungarian, Italian and Latin just makes the whole thing practically incompr..."Don't forget Greek and Sanskrit! :) The hypertext version is helpful in this regard:
http://eliotswasteland.tripod.com
But it's a good question why Eliot would write a poem so difficult to read and understand. Having the translation of the non-English verses does not make the poem any easier for me.
Nemo wrote: "I wish Eliot had stayed with just one language in his poem. The part in English is hard enough, adding in French, German, Hungarian, Italian and Latin just makes the whole thing practically incompr..."
Yeah...I had to read the translations all over the place...HOWEVER. ..
Three points in support of the foreign phrases:
I couldn't find the quote, but I thought I had read that Eliot had said something along the lines that a writer writes because a writer HAS to write. He knew the languages; he used the words he felt "right." He had to write the poem he had to write...or why bother?
The select group who read his poems when published--the intended readers --would have known more than just English.
And...when the reader DOES know the other language, it's delightful! I only know a little German, but I could understand it...and it would be wrong to write of being "echt deutsch" using English. If Marie is speaking of being real or true German... then she must speak German.
Yeah...I had to read the translations all over the place...HOWEVER. ..
Three points in support of the foreign phrases:
I couldn't find the quote, but I thought I had read that Eliot had said something along the lines that a writer writes because a writer HAS to write. He knew the languages; he used the words he felt "right." He had to write the poem he had to write...or why bother?
The select group who read his poems when published--the intended readers --would have known more than just English.
And...when the reader DOES know the other language, it's delightful! I only know a little German, but I could understand it...and it would be wrong to write of being "echt deutsch" using English. If Marie is speaking of being real or true German... then she must speak German.
I was always curious about Jessie Weston's book, From Ritual to Romance, because of its influence on The Wasteland as mentioned in Eliot's notes on the poem, but back in the day, it was out of print and just about impossible to find. I see it's now available via Project Gutenberg ( as is The Golden Bough in all 12 volumes--gulp). I don't know that I'll get From Ritual to Romance read in the next two weeks myself, but how nice to have it available.
Patrice wrote: "It reminded me of all of the untranslated French in War and Peace. It had a purpose. I got the point. But it was so annoying! "Funny you mention War and Peace. Several verses ("scenes") in the Waste Land did remind me of it.
I was not annoyed at Tolstoy for writing in both Russian and French, but at the translators for their failure or unwillingness to translate the French passages into English. It was natural for Tolstoy to write in both languages --he (and most of the people he knew) spoke them daily.
Tolstoy is writing a book about the war between France and Russia from a more or less historical and objective pov, so it is only fitting that both sides are represented in their own languages.
Similarly, Eliot is writing about the desolation of WWI, and voices from all major participating countries are heard (all except Russia, I wonder why). The question is: are those voices genuine and relevant?
Thomas wrote: "Having the translation of the non-English verses does not make the poem any easier for me. "Indeed. It's hard to see how all those pieces fit together.
I sent an email to the makers of the ipad app to see if they might offer a discount on their app for a few days. I was going to buy it, having greatly enjoyed the one with Shakespeare's sonnets but found I was fifty cents short of the sixteen canadian dollars I needed to purchase it with an itunes card (don't like to give banking or credit card info to apple or amazon unless I absolutely have to).
I'll probably get it anyway, but it would be nice to get it for a discount.
I sent them a link to this discussion.
Theresa wrote: "I sent an email to the makers of the ipad app to see if they might offer a discount on their app for a few days. I was going to buy it, having greatly enjoyed the one with Shakespeare's sonnet..."
I wrote to Apple to see if they would give me a discount on an iPad so I can get the Waste Land app. Keeping my fingers crossed. And eyes.
While you're at it, how about a CWC group discount?
ha,I probably have too many apps because I download the apps when they go temporarily free or on sale. Have found a few good ones that way but they do take up a lot of space.
Eliot's early poem, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufock" comes up quite often in background material about "The Waste Land." Here is a recording of it by Jeremy Irons.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02srns9
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that Weston's From Ritual to Romance is available to read on e-readers or online from Gutenberg.org:http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4090
Mostly about Harold Bloom, but with significant comments on his views of Eliot, both poetry and criticism. http://tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-...
Everyman wrote: "I don't think anyone has yet mentioned that Weston's From Ritual to Romance is available to read on e-readers or online from Gutenberg.org"Susan did mention Weston's book and The Golden Bough in msg 25.
I'm beginning to think that I'm ill-equipped to read Eliot's poems, not knowing the context in which they are written.
Nemo wrote: "I'm beginning to think that I'm ill-equipped to read Eliot's poems, not knowing the context in which they are written...."Points of discomfiture are often wonderful points of learning -- sometimes of learning not to ... whatever. In the hands of this group, consider trusting that "enough" context will come?
E.g., see post here and Eman's response: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I read somewhere that Eliot regretted providing the notes at the end of The Waste Land because they send the reader on a "wild goose chase." I think the feeling of unease and incomprehension that the reader feels is one of the poem's mechanisms, and when the reader feels a compunction to resolve the meaning immediately it sort of derails the poem. The ambiguity and feeling of being lost is part of the plan, so my advice is to just go with it. The only way out is through.
Thomas wrote: "I read somewhere that Eliot regretted providing the notes at the end of The Waste Land because they send the reader on a "wild goose chase." I think the feeling of unease and incomprehension that t..."Lily wrote: "Nemo wrote: "I'm beginning to think that I'm ill-equipped to read Eliot's poems, not knowing the context in which they are written...."
Points of discomfiture are often wonderful points of learnin..."
Perfect, Lily and Thomas! Fare forward.
Lily wrote: "Nemo wrote: "I'm beginning to think that I'm ill-equipped to read Eliot's poems, not knowing the context in which they are written...."Points of discomfiture are often wonderful points of learning.."
Thank you for the reassuring words, Lily. I wouldn't have voted for Eliot if I didn't trust in the resourcefulness of this group. :)
I know next to nothing about Eliot, and was hoping for recommendations of his own essays or books that would help me understand the poet, his poems in general and these two in particular. (This was the "context" I had in mind.)
I have always thought of "The Waste Land" as a lamentation after war (or devastation) -- as experienced in the trenches of Verdun or the cities of Japan or the battlefields of Gettysburg et al. I know it "isn't really," but that is always the places it takes me.
Patrice wrote: "Thomas wrote: "I read somewhere that Eliot regretted providing the notes at the end of The Waste Land because they send the reader on a "wild goose chase." I think the feeling of unease and incompr..."Thomas and Patrice, I thought maybe that Eliot was told he should annotate his poem, so he did so, but playfully.
Lily wrote: "I have always thought of "The Waste Land" as a lamentation after war (or devastation) -- as experienced in the trenches of Verdun or the cities of Japan or the battlefields of Gettysburg et al. I k..."That's what it sounds like to me, Lily—lamentation for war and loosened morals and the supposed death of God.
Patrice wrote: "That sounds right to me Lily. The references to flowers made me think of the poppies in Flanders Fields, swaying to and fro among the crosses. But I think the lament can relate to any devastation..."Oh, good, Patrice! After all, this movement is called "the Burial of the Dead."
From Eliot's notes about the poem:"Not only the title, but the plan and a
good deal of the incidental symbolism
of the poem were suggested by Miss Jesse L.
Weston's book on the Grail legend: From
Ritual to Romance (Macmillan). Indeed, so
deeply am I indebted, Miss Weston's book will
elucidate the difficulties of the poem much
better than my notes can do; and I recom-
mend it (apart from the great interest of the
book itself) to any who think such elucidation of the
poem worth the trouble."
I don't really see much of the Grail legend and the Fisher King in the poem, except some of the quotes from Wagner's operas and a reference to someone sitting on the floor fishing in lines 423-425. I am wondering whether what Weston gave him was a glimpse of a way to organize his work, inspired by these words from Weston about the Grail legend:
"The main difficulty of our research lies in the fact that the Grail legend consists of a congeries of widely differing elements—elements which at first sight appear hopelessly incongruous, if not completely contradictory, yet at the same time are present to an extent, and in a form, which no honest critic can afford to ignore."
The Waste Land certainly does seem to "consist of a congeries of widely differing elements—elements which at first sight appear hopelessly incongruous...." So perhaps what the Grail legend contributed to the poem was permission to the poet to be disjointed and cull from many different sources to sing his song.
What do you think?
The Fisher King, barren, wounded and sick, dying with silent resignation and a little patience, perhaps waiting for someone to come and heal him, reminds me (as I'm typing) of the sick man at the Pool of Bethesda. His character seems congruent with the entire theme of the poem.
Laurel wrote: "Eliot's early poem, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufock" comes up quite often in background material about "The Waste Land." Here is a recording of it by Jeremy Irons.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programm..."
I used to enjoy reading that poem. I read it again just now, but really don't see all that many connections to The Waste Land besides the obvious ones. Perhaps after I've read the Waste Land a few more times. From what I've read, there are connections to be found between all of his poems.
Patrice wrote: "I was thinking... April...Easter...crucifixtion, resurrection...lilies.
WWI wasn't the first time that the world seemed to come apart."
Also, "Son of man".
Patrice wrote: "WWI wasn't the first time that the world seemed to come apart...I wonder. The world had never seen a war like that before, and maybe not even since.
Theresa wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Eliot's early poem, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufock" comes up quite often in background material about "The Waste Land." Here is a recording of it by Jeremy Irons.http://www.bbc..."
It comes up in the background material in relation to Eliot's life.
Patrice wrote: "It was just Eliot's disaster...."Which he immortalized (in a certain way) with words?
Patrice wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Patrice wrote: "WWI wasn't the first time that the world seemed to come apart...I wonder. The world had never seen a war like that before, and maybe not even since."
The Fall of..."
It was different from the wars that came before it. WWII came around and was horrific but people still remembered WWI. I don't expect the surviving soldiers marching back into England at the end of WWII were quite as shaken as Eliot appears to be describing the returning soldiers in The Waste Land. They used nerve gas. People saw a lot of things about humans they hadn't considered before. In WWII there was Hiroshima and The Holocaust but not all of the soldiers and populations experienced that, many were in denial and the truth about the horror took some time to come out.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Bleak House (other topics)Bethink Yourselves! (other topics)
The Kingdom of God Is Within You (other topics)
T. S. Eliot: The Poems (other topics)
The Bhagavad Gita (other topics)
More...
June 3-16 "The Waste Land" (two weeks)
June 17-July 14 "Four Quartets" (four weeks, one for each of the four parts)
June 17-23 "Burnt Norton"
June 24-30 "East Coker"
July 1-7 "The Dry Salvages"
July 8-14 "Little Gidding"
The Poems
Both poems are in Collected Poems, 1909-1962, either Kindle or paperback, and they are also readily available on the Web.
I would recommend the Norton Waste Land The Waste Land and, if you have an iPad, The Waste Land by Touchpress Limited https://appsto.re/us/-aIEz.i
Here is a nice edition of Four Quartets, without notes, in Kindle and paperback Four Quartets
I recommend also a book of commentary on Four Quartets. There are several good ones, each bringing out different elements of the poetry. I have and like these: Dove Descending: A Journey Into T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets Redeeming Time: T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets The Voices of Silence: Meditations on T. S. Eliot's Four Quartets
Biography
"Young Tom," by Robert Crawford is the latest biographical work. Here is Dirda's review: http://www.washingtonpost.com/enterta... it is available in Kindle edition only right now in the U.S.
I am reading and very much enjoying Russell Kirk's critical biography, Eliot and His Age. Eliot and His Age: T. S. Eliot's Moral Imagination in the Twentieth Century I have it in both paperback and Kindle editions.