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Mistakes I made...That you should avoid
11a - spell convoluted correctly. :-)
All good thoughts!
All good thoughts!
Jim wrote: "11a - spell convoluted correctly. :-)All good thoughts!"
Hmm I thought you'd mean cheese instead of chess. :P
And yes, good advices. Thanks. :)
A very good list. I especially endorse 1,2,3,7,8,9 & 12.
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Agree with most, but not the one quoted. It works for some, yes, but I cannot work with an outline. When I try the writing comes out flat or rigid or I end up disregarding it halfway through.
Dwayne wrote: "Agree with most, but not the one quoted. It works for some, yes, but I cannot work with an outline. When I try the writing comes out flat or rigid or I end up disregarding it halfway through..."I agree that's very much an individual choice. I find outlines to be a straightjacket and we never use them. Our books morph as we write them, and for the better (we think).
To do a good outline, one has to be very disciplined and meticulous, and I'm just not either.
Owen wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "Agree with most, but not the one quoted. It works for some, yes, but I cannot work with an outline. When I try the writing comes out flat or rigid or I end up disregarding it halfway..."I agree with both of you Dwayne and Owen. I can't outline either because my characters are stubborn and they always lead me away from what I have in mind anyway.
I think #10 should have a caveat: if you are going to have a lot of people read you book before it's published, you first need to know how to manage those people -- it's just like managing any team. Otherwise, you're likely to have a mess on your hands.
I would say these are good suggestions, but by no means rules to follow rigidly. Except number 1, which should be a given for life, not just writing.For me, whether or not I outline depends entirely on the book I'm writing.
The last one, however, I don't like. Saying that most books have a bad title and cover is subjective. Besides, according to several pro atheletes, running without shoes is the best way to learn to run correctly.
Peter Elbow's books are also good for fiction, if you cant outline just do some free writing. It helps when you're stuck. Running without shoes (on cement or street) unless you're a kid and weight under 160 lbs would kill your knees.
Run only on a grass field without shoes this is ok to do. :)
I never considered an outline when I started writing and can't imagine falling into one. It's just not possible because my writing flows out of my fingertips without thought. The story makes complete sense when I'm done. I agree with most things on the list. I also think there's a lot of great titles and book covers out there. So I do agree with most of this but not all.... Thanks for sharing:)
Owen wrote: "Dwayne wrote: "Agree with most, but not the one quoted. It works for some, yes, but I cannot work with an outline. When I try the writing comes out flat or rigid or I end up disregarding it halfway..."Myself also! I cannot work with an outline. I start with ideas on cards (in Scrivener) and then, next thing I know it, I am deep into the story. Sometimes I add cards as I go, but generally I use the cards to get me moving on the story and then abandon the idea.
The closest thing to an outline I follow is "The Hero's Journey". I have circle diagram in my writer's cave, and refer to it throughout, to ensure I have all the important elements of the story (journey). Here is a wikipedia link about Monolith/hero's journey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth
When in doubt, I look at the story flow and adjust as necessary. This is what works for me! I dive in and a story ensues....
Yep, I'm in the "#11 need not apply" group.I wrote my very first novel using a detailed outline and ended up changing the outline to fit what I wrote more than changing what I wrote to fit the outline.
[And incidentally that novel has never been good enough to publish, though sometimes I go back and try to re-think it.]
Since then, I find I need the underlying premise of the plot, the beginning scene, and a moderately sketched out idea of how it ends. Everything else is discovery that happens along the way.
Though usually at some point I write a "what's really going on" document to map out the plot path to the ending. This allows me to tie up loose ends and make sure I don't leave plot lines dangling.
Erik wrote: "Peter Elbow's books are also good for fiction, if you cant outline just do some free writing. It helps when you're stuck. Running without shoes (on cement or street) unless you're a kid and weigh..."
i agree! Thanks for the list... the one about experience beating out intelligence...I guess I feel the two should go hand in hand. Especially common sense coupled with experience!
Erik, great topic… I’d like to expand on it by adding a few recommendations based on my own mistakes:14. Before you write, understand your publishing options and likely platforms. POD, KDP, Kindle Worlds and others all have their own formatting limitations and pricing rules. Don’t write your masterpiece first and then try to understand the mechanics of publication (indie or otherwise).
15. Before you settle on a title, look for similar titles on Amazon. It’s incredible how many books, comics or games are out there with your exact title. Enough embarrassment when Aunt Granny comes back with, Oh! You wrote that disgusting book (unless that's what you intended...).
16. Google your own proposed author name or pen name (I think mine is shared by a funeral home in Michigan, among others)
17. Understand your audience beyond, Gee, I like that genre. After all, they are the ones who will choose to click “buy” or to scroll on down.
18. Tailor your cover and blurb to your audience. Enough said elsewhere about covers and blurbs...
19. Take your time to edit before releasing your book. Nothing worse than getting all excited and then suffering the embarrassment of premature e-publication.
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Concerning #11: It depends on the writer's style. Personally, I couldn't work without an outline, though I sometime diverge from it when something better comes to mind as I write. But I wouldn't dream of telling the "seat of the pants" writers they have to use my method.I have a couple of articles posted on my blog that pretty well summarize my approach. The four act story structure (http://www.dispatchesfromwonderland.c...) helps me plan out my hero's journey, and I use the scenes and sequels strategy (http://www.dispatchesfromwonderland.c...) to help with the flow of the story and to make sure my characters are emotionally accessible to readers. Maybe these will help others as well.
I'm a seat of the pants writer; the closest I come to a plot outline are some general notes on upcoming scenes. It works best for me. I once had a teacher - who was also a published author - tell me there was no way I could write the way I do...even while I was sitting in front of him, writing a story off the top of my head.Everybody does the same thing differently.
Oh Gawd V.M., I love the visuals! Put me down for a "Pants-plotter" and remember that laugh all you want, I'll be laughing harder. But I will say, like riding in the front of the roller-coaster, looking down is the best part. Slightly more serious, another thing I've learned the hard way:
20. Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate your passive verbs as you write. Punctuation, ugly tags, and repeated words can all be fixed while editing. But eliminating a passive verb on the second pass usually craps up your entire paragraph and often jams your whole (beautifully crafted) sequence. So unless you're Ken Follett, exterminate first and edit later.
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Great advice all. I'll add one of my own. When you get so close to "the end" of that novel you can taste it, slow down, don't rush it, but use your excitement to get it right.
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Wow, such great advice. I use post its rather than a timeline/outline. I write plot points on them for everything I want in the story and arrange them in order later. For me that's an easy way to play around with the plot line and anything you don't use in that story you can pop in your idea jar for the next one.
Erik (and everyone else), how exactly do you go about networking? I've heard that advice so much but I've no idea where to start?
Erik (and everyone else), how exactly do you go about networking? I've heard that advice so much but I've no idea where to start?
Good advice,I will add my one BIG mistake here. Don't quote other books/films/articles without permission.
My Book Robots Like Blue
was previuosly published as "Robots Like Red."
I had intended a little nod in the directionn of Asimov, and quoted the three laws. I clearly indicated that this was Asimov's laws and thought that this was "fair use."
I approached Asimov's copyright owner for clarification openly, AFTER PUBLICATION (duh!) The response was an aggressive slapdown. A "Cease and Desist" and a demand to see my (laughable) royalties. I learned quite a lot about copyright very quickly!
However, it set me back a year. Losing 18 Amazon reviews.
I see self published authors doing the same! Chances are you will not get caught, but we all have dreams of making it big.
Then the copyright lawwyers will come after you!
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You're absolutely correct, Anthony, but I'd add songs and anything else that can be copyrighted. Much as that pains me. So often I could toss a quote from a song at the beginning of a chapter, but I don't have the money to pay for the rights and don't want to be sued, so I don't.
But, I understand where they're coming from. I'd hate to see someone making money off my work and I'm not getting even a penny of it.
@DwayneBut, I understand where they're coming from. I'd hate to see someone making money off my work and I'm not getting even a penny of it.
Absolutely! I realise my error. However, people trying to "rip you off" don't send you a copy of the book and invite you to state your position. A polite letter would have been more human and as effective!
Copyright law is nuanced you can talk about
a book - but I don't dare mention Asimov in my books, having already rattled their cage. You just can't quote or build your book on their foundation, ie derivative work.
You can't copyright an idea. Anyone can write a story about a young boy, that goes to a wizard school and has to overcome one of the most powerful evil wizards (that just will not die).
If it is similar to any famous author readers will cry "rip off." Why would anyone want to "copy" a story in their own words in order for such claims to be levelled at your effort and then have well paid lawyers block your publication and steal your royalties?
However, with so many authors and books out there the possibility of convergent thinking is great.
If somone quotes your book, you will be powerless to stop them, unless you can afford a court case.
Justice is for the 'big guns' only.
All of this is true, but let's not overstate the case. I've had more than one person warn me about "copyright infringement" in the first chapter of my book. My characters watch Disney's Mulan and talk about the movie as they plan a birthday party. There are no direct quotes from the movie, and while Mulan and Mushu are mentioned by name, they do not appear as characters in my book. All my use merely demonstrates that the movie is a part of the world in which my story is set. Additionally, the rest of the story has nothing whatsoever to do with Mulan. I have checked with an intellectual properties attorney and this constitutes fair use. So there's an example of the sorts of things you can do.
Robert wrote: "All of this is true, but let's not overstate the case. I've had more than one person warn me about "copyright infringement" in the first chapter of my book. My characters watch Disney's Mulan and t..."Exactly, you don't quote and your story is non-derivative.
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It would, but we're talking about lawyers here.
Thanks for sharing, Anthony! I have to admit, when I saw the note in the beginning of RLB, I reeeeeaaally wanted to get nosy and ask you what happened. ;)For what it's worth, Robots Like Blue seems gentler and more on par with the peaceful robots you wrote about. Robots liking red seem more like the angry-eyed kill-bots of fifties monster movies.
C.B. Matson wrote: "20. Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate your passive verbs..."I'm far more likely to use passive aggressive verbs than normal passive ones.
As for outlining with my novel The Kingdom of Assassins, the book is 45% discovery while writing and 55% outlining since the novel has a complex plot and I had to organize the story- the storyline is influenced by Shakespeare and has a lots of plot twists and they are hard to pull off without an outline to organize the story.
This thread is awesome! Some wonderful points made.I would add on the - if you're going to use a pseudonym - my heavens help yourself early on and choose something short.
And if you've never ran without shoes - even on a treadmill, you should try it once. You'll quickly realize how bad you walked/ran to begin with. Kudos to Christina!
And V.R., this was an excellent post about "Never looking down." I wish I would have had those exact words years ago. Brilliant thoughts!
Most important - don't stop writing! Even if it's the suckiest piece of suck ever! It's yours! Own it.
Take care all!
-kailee
Erik wrote: "This is the best way to learn.1) Don't throw money at a problem
2) Plan ahead, WAY Ahead.
3) Things always take much longer than you think.
4) Networking is HUGE
5) Time management is also H..."
Good stuff. 4,7,12,and 13 are very outstanding. However, 11 is false. This depends on the type of writer you are. I have never outlined a darn thing and I never will. There are those of us with the gift for storytelling that that eclipses that of the "Author." We know our characters, where they are at, where they are going, who they are and what they do. Outlining is a taught academic exercise that many use which is fine. I see it as pointless and time wasting. Just sit down and write the damn book.
Kailee wrote: "if you're going to use a pseudonym - my heavens help yourself early on and choose something short..."You mean like Mahatma Kane Jeeves, Otis Criblecoblis, or Professor Eustace P. McGargle?
Omg! Micah, thank you for the brain candy!It's my birthday today and it was a perfect comment.
And to that my response is: precisely. ;)
Micah wrote: "Kailee wrote: "if you're going to use a pseudonym - my heavens help yourself early on and choose something short..."You mean like Mahatma Kane Jeeves, Otis Criblecoblis, or Professor Eustace P. M..."
or Jack July.
V.M. wrote: "Kailee wrote: "Pardon me! V.M., not V.R.Apologies :)"
You're allowed one mistake.That was it. After that, we release the Hounds. And the Bees. And Nicholas Cage.
... SIA may have gone too far."
Oh good God please, not Nic Cage.
Can I have the hounds, bees, and a different Italian? ;)I've actually got something to add - don't take yourself too seriously. Keep your perspective.
Some people will love you, love them back
Some people will hate you, love them too
...because clearly, they need more.
-kailee
Keep track of all your book sales for tax purposes and expect to lose some of your profit. I tried to keep track of book sales in my head for the first two weeks (book sales in person), and may have lost count.
I can only hope my sales impact my taxes...
Keep this thread going!I would further add that one should build up readers before doing adverts. But thats "the what comes first chicken or the egg?"
Erik,That really is a "chicken or the egg" thing. The advertising is designed to get you readers, after all, but I see your point. Especially if you're a new, unknown author, having a review or two available when someone follows your advertisement to actually find your book for sale can make all the difference. If that potential buyer says "I'll keep this in mind for later", chances are he'll leave and won't remember to come back. A positive review or two adds just that extra bit of incentive for him to go ahead and take the plunge.
I'm a subscriber of #11, but it is by no means a hard and fast rule. I do suggest it to people that are starting out and having trouble figuring out where to go and what to do.So many things have changed between my outline and first draft, and then even more for the "final" copy that it is almost humorous to go back and read the original outline. Other things get added. Some things get changed. The entire ending for my 2nd book has changed since I wrote the outline for it. But the outline keeps me from getting hung up on what to do next, and generally insures that the book will be packed to the gills with content. An outline can be as simple as the plot point you want to make in each chapter. I just don't understand all the hate for such a helpful tool, one that allowed me to write my first full length work in a very short amount of time.
Proofreading is pretty key. Not to say that mine are perfect, but I try hard to make my writing as error-free as possible. Besides, I don't want to include the word pemis, when it's a typo for something else! ;)
Ava wrote: "Proofreading is pretty key. Not to say that mine are perfect, but I try hard to make my writing as error-free as possible. Besides, I don't want to include the word pemis, when it's a typo for some..."at least you don't have a word processor that auto-corrects.
"...he slowly inserted his pelicans..."
V.M. wrote: "Idav wrote: "Ava wrote: "Proofreading is pretty key. Not to say that mine are perfect, but I try hard to make my writing as error-free as possible. Besides, I don't want to include the word pemis, ..."hahaha. The funny thing is, I once saw some pterodactyl erotica on amazon. Don't remember what it was called, but it had some silly plot like that sounds like this: "Ada is an unsatisfied tribal chief's wife, bored collecting berries, until a rival tribe attacks and slaughter her family. After a series of events, pterodactyls swoop in and save her from certain death, but as one of the pterodactyl males appears to entering heat, Ada wonders, is she really safe, or is she a captive pterodactyl sex slave?!"
no, that's probably not what it actually said but the plot summary was similar from what I can remember.
1) Don't throw money at a problem
2) Plan ahead, WAY Ahead.
3) Things always take much longer than you think.
4) Networking is HUGE
5) Time management is also HUGE.
6) Come up with a list of ideas and rethink your
failures and successes-
7) Intelligence cannot replace experience! PERIOD- Compare the businessman with the Ivory tower academic.
8) Things always change, roll with the punches or get knocked out!
9) Sail with the winds and not against them.
10) Have at least 10 people read your book before you publish and have at least 2 or 3 Proofreaders proof it!
11) You must take your time outlining or you will have lots of rewrites to do and your story can lose its focus and become like Swiss cheese; full of plot holes or convolted.
Chess = spelling aka lack of sleep! :)
12) The tough critics are like good medicine -
13) Most books don't have a good title or good cover and that's like running without shoes.