The Seasonal Reading Challenge discussion
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Spring 2013 Rules Discussion
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D.G. ~Shameless Hussy~ wrote: "Ms Anderson wrote: "I call all my students "kids," even though some of them are almost 15, well within YA range. "My husband teaches in College and he does the same thing. ;)"
I work in a high school and I call my students my kids as well.
Mod
My husband teaches in College and he does the same..."
It's all relative - I still call my younger brother and sisters "the kids" - and they're all grandparents now...................
Donna Jo wrote: "From all the comments about The Outsiders, it sounds like it had better be a group read soon!"I read "The Outsiders" in eigth grade and I loved that book.
Chris wrote: "I'm troubled by this new change in YA rules also. I'm a big reader of YA books, and I agree that it does seem they're being relegated to a "less than" status based soley on page count and GR reader..."I think we have to remember that there are 30+ places (extras include 2 book 15 point tasks) that you can put childrens books that are less than 300 pages. I basically read solely YA fiction at the moment because I'm really into it, but I've not found an issue with any of the books I've picked yet, even for 5/10/15. I've got a couple of childrens books I want to read that I can only use for 5/10/15 point tasks now but I understand. I mean, I could read Diary of a Wimpy Kid x 2 for a 30 point task and that task will have only taken me about 2 hours of reading, whereas others may spend five times that amount of time finishing their tasks, or even more. I think it's fair to note this, and while some of us may suffer because of a handful of books shelved as both, you must remember you still have the option to read it.
I don't believe that the 300page rule should apply everywhere, there are many adult books shelved as less than that do take a lot longer to read than some childrens books, as childrens books tend to have larger print, easier prose and are definitely easier to read from an adult perspective, whereas YA takes about as long as some adult books most of the time.
I wanted to use a book that fit a 25 task but because it had childrens genre marked on the page and it was less than 300 pages I couldn't use it. I was a little bummed but found something else.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "I wanted to use a book that fit a 25 task but because it had childrens genre marked on the page and it was less than 300 pages I couldn't use it. I was a little bummed but found something else."I think the time this will be annoying for some of us is if we've got a task that requires something specific, such as a certain word in the title, and the only one we have that we want to read and have access to can't be read because of this. Probably rare occurrence so hopefully doesn't put too many people out
Jessica wrote: "I think it's less about declaring YA "less than" an adult book in terms of quality but about recognizing that YA books, in general, are written at a somewhat easier reading level than books targete..."Actually, a lot of novels geared towards adults (particularly genre novels) tend to be written at a lower reading level--more around 5th or 6th grade--so that they appeal to a broader audience.
We use lexiles at school to help our students pick books that will help them become better readers. Lexiles measure the difficulty of the sentence structure and vocabulary in a piece of writing, then give a score between 10 and 2000, with higher numbers signifying a higher difficulty level.
Out of curiosity, I checked a variety of books using the lexile resource. Not all of them have lexile scores (since lexiles are usually used for students, a lot of romance novels and such aren't going to come up). Asimov's Caves of Steel has a lexile score of 750. And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie's lexile is only 540, too low for even my struggling readers. Even some literary fiction doesn't have very high difficulty levels. The Help, for example, has a lexile of 730, and The Handmaid's Tale is 750.
Compare those scores to The Giver (760), Wonder (790), or House of Stairs (810), all of which have "children's" on their genre page. Even The Hobbit, mentioned earlier by Rebecca, has a lexile score of 1000.
Now, admittedly, some of the situations and language used in novels aimed at adults isn't the kind of thing that I'd necessarily hand one of my sixth graders, but just because a writer is writing for adults doesn't mean that the book s/he is writing is harder.
"Now, admittedly, some of the situations and language used in novels aimed at adults isn't the kind of thing that I'd necessarily hand one of my sixth graders, but just because a writer is writing for adults doesn't mean that the book s/he is writing is harder."Thank you! This is exactly my point. Just because the target audience is older doesn't mean it's harder.
I've tried to word this a few times so I hope it makes sense to everyone.I am a reader of all genres - including poetry, non-fiction, graphic novels, ya, etc. What I am getting hung up on and I keep referring to my edition of The Hobbit is because 500+ people have tagged it as "childrens" I cannot use it. Could I use it for a 5/10/15 point task? Yes. Could I replace a 30 point task with something else? Yes. But if the page number is such a solid point, why is one of the Group Books (a 20 point task) only 116 pages?
I respect what the moderators do for this challenge and I know it's a lot of hard work. I imagine that this change in rules is due to someone abusing the original rules and I do want it to be fair for everyone. But if page numbers are going to drive books that users have shelved as "childrens" then maybe a page number needs to be set across the board.
I'll take the blame for The Postman Always Rings Twice, since I nominated the category. Noir books do tend to be short (many of the other nominees are also under 300 pages) because it's part of the form to use a very spare writing style and try to communicate a lot with the minimum number of words. I nominated it because it isn't an area we've touched on before, and one of my favorite aspects of the SRC is how it pushes me to branch out. I certainly didn't intend to nominate the category as a way to try to undercut the value of the challenge by having a short book out there. That said, the book does happen to be a really nice example of the genre and it's really excellent - I recommend it, although I personally will be picking something else since I've already read it.
Jessica - my comment wasn't to be directed towards the person who nominated the book in any way and actualy, I am planning on reading The Postman Always Rings Twice. I've never read it before and it was available at the library. I've been doing the SRC back when it was part of the The Next Best Book Club and because of it I have read things I wouldn't normally think about reading. I also like the scavenger hunt aspect of the challenge. I guess I'm looking for some clarification about this rule change.
Katrina wrote: "Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "I wanted to use a book that fit a 25 task but because it had childrens genre marked on the page and it was less than 300 pages I couldn't use it. I was a little bumm..."I wanted to use my book choice because we had to use the letters NROTC anywhere in the title. The book fit the task but because it was a children's genre I couldn't use it.
I considered the use of children's books when I wrote my task and opted to say no and specifically about that book Jayme - i have read others in the series, they are closer to the early reader than most YA today are
I wasn't arguing. I was just stating a comment.I don't think it would be considered early reader. Middle school level at least.
Stacie wrote: "I have a question that I don't think has been brought up yet. In the past few challenges, books of comic strips or syndicated comics could only be used if 500 or more pages were read. . Does that mean that a single book could be used for a 5, 10, or 15 point task? "As long as it is 100+ pages, yes.
One thing I really like about this group is the respectul way in which this debate has (is) playing out. Well done! I'll be curious to see how this plays out through the challenge.
something to also be considered is that those of us who get the opportunity to write the 50/30/25/20 point tasks are being asked if we want to allow children's books/manga etc - which means that some of them may be restricted and others not - which I think adds depth to the challenge and for me, makes it more of a challenge
I had not planned to comment on the YA-children's rule change since I do not read exclusively YA nor am I a YA-children's librarian. However, I just was reviewing my reading plan and realized that a couple I had chosen for 30.2 won't fit. I was able to move one to 15.1 book 2, but the other will need to wait in the wings for another time. Now that I have had the experience of re-working my plan, I want to offer this comment as one who is enjoying her discovery of YA but doesn't read only that genre. I view the new rule as an added challenge in finding the book I want to read for a task. I welcome it as it makes the overall challenge even more challenging. I am willing to try it out for a season to see if I can still find books I want to read for the tasks.
I have a question. Since the "new" rule says that children's books have to be over 300 pgs. for the higher tasks--- What do we do with old books that we add ourselves. They will not have any shelving information saying if they are children's books-- That the mods could verify because we've added the book. Should we have a rule for those books too? Or is there a rule I'm missing? I like to get old books from garage sales and they may not already be on goodreads.
Mod
You're correct that if the book has not been shelved on Goodreads there will not be genre information for the mods to use. If this situation should arise, it would be preferable if you used your judgment on this rather than viewing it as a loophole to exploit.
Thanks Sandy. I would certainly use the book correctly. I was just making sure if there was a rule or not. Just to be perfectly clear--- teen sort of stories, if not on goodreads and self-added would be considered childrens if not 300 pages--- since books like The Outsiders fell into that void??? :-) Like Betty Cavanna books would fall under childrens with our new rule? Correct?
Mod
No, the rule applies to childrens books. There is no rule that a YA book with fewer than 300 pages becomes a childrens book. I didn't look at every single Betty Cavanna book, but the first 3 listed for her don't have "children" as a genre, so the rule doesn't apply to them.
Unfortunately, there are a few book that are truly YA that will fall under this rule (as opposed to childrens books that have also been tagged as YA), but most of the books I found that were really geared toward teens, as opposed to elementary school children, were not listed as childrens.
What I also found, when doing quite a lot of research on this, is that it seems that most childrens books are also shelved as YA - for instance The Bobbsey Twins of Lakeport and that perennial teen favorite,Go, Dog. Go!
So, if you find some hitherto unknown Bobbsey Twins book - that would be a childrens book. A book geared toward teenagers would not.
Hope this helps.
Thanks so much!!! That is much clearer!!! I so appreciate all the work you all do so we can have fun doing the challenge. High Five!!! :-)
Oh my gosh I had no idea rhat we could read graphic novels for the 5, 10, and 15 point tasks. I am SO GLAD I read the rules before starting the Spring Challenge. And here I thought I knew pretty muc heverything about the SRC challenge since this is my fourth one.
Apropos of nothing...I'm dying for the next challenge to start! We need more finishers to get more 25 pt. tasks!
**annoying post over** :p
D.G. ~Shameless Hussy~ wrote: "Apropos of nothing...I'm dying for the next challenge to start! We need more finishers to get more 25 pt. tasks!
**annoying post over** :p"
I've got so many books I want to start reading, it's not even funny. Why can't it be Friday yet? >_>
Now I don't feel like it's only me...thanks Ms Anderson!
and don't forget my cheering people on in the thread!
Regarding the children's books that are over 300 pages, if a book lists both YA and childrens-middle grade as genres on its main page, is it still usable for a higher-point task?
Amy wrote: "Regarding the children's books that are over 300 pages, if a book lists both YA and childrens-middle grade as genres on its main page, is it still usable for a higher-point task?"The rule that encompasses children's books is as follows:
5. Books with the genre "childrens" or "kids" that are between 100 and 299 pages may only be used for 5, 10, and 15 point tasks unless they are excluded by Rule 4. Books with the genre “childrens” or "kids" on their main page may ONLY be used for tasks above 15 points IF they are at least 300 pages long.
Whether or not the book has YA as a genre or not makes no difference. If the book is labeled as "children's" or "kids," and it is 300 pages or longer, it may be used for a higher point task unless ALL children's books have been explicitly excluded by the task creator or it falls under the disallowed books covered in rule 4 (picture book, chapter book, transitional book, etc.).
I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I couldn't find similar topic with fall 2013.I need clarification about Book formats and page numbers explained: rule number 12 about omnibus, bundles and anthologies. It says that those may be isolated into separate parts so only one story of an anthology could be used.
But can I use the whole anthology for a task if I want? I have picked Bus Stories and Other Tales for task 30.4, option B2 secondary color green. My ebook has mostly green cover as it's different edition than the one shown in the link.
Some tasks specifically say that anthologies are accepted or required but can they be used in any task if other requirements are fulfilled?
Mod
I need clarification about Book formats and page numbers explained: rule number 12 about omnibus, bundles..."
Normally, an anthology or collection of short stories is fine to use, just like any other book.
This rule comes up primarily in the case of bundled books - for instance,with ebooks, you can often find a bundle version with 3 novels by an author. Many times, several older novels are reprinted together in one book. If all 3 have been published separately, you can use them as individual books, instead of being required to read 3 novels for one task, just because they are published in one piece.
Sandy wrote: "Eepa (Eija) wrote: "I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I couldn't find similar topic with fall 2013.I need clarification about Book formats and page numbers explained: rule number 12 ab..."
Okay, thanks. =)
Kinda late to this discussion but I actually like the new limits put on children's books. I don't know if it would be more work for the moderators but maybe we could separate the YA from children's with a Lexile score minimum?
And your Childrens genre rule has reach totally new absurdity. I just foun MM romance book more than likely inclueding explicit sex scenes with genre Childrens on main page. Hopefully 'cos one of the MCs' has a child and not 'cos somebody thinks it's good children's book...Conduct Unbecoming
Over 300 pages so I can use it for anything I want but still it's so not what you have meant with your rule and still falls under it.
sometimes you just have to suck it up and deal with it - the mods have made the rule based on their experience...sure there are going to be books that are incorrectly classifiedno one is forcing you to participate in the challenge and all the whining about the rules by newbies is starting to get irksome
this is a stupid question (since i've been doing this challenge awhile!) I can read a book that is 100 pgs long-- as long as the task description does not have a require a certain book length.
ex. if for a 25 point task,if there is no required pg length i could read a book that is 150 pgs long, am i understanding this right?
yep, as long as there is no page limit specified then you can read it; the only caveat would be the book shelved as childrens and the need to be 300+ pgs
Mod
I can read a book that is 100 pgs long-- as long as the task description does not have a require a certain book length.
e..."
that's right - with the exception of childrens books. The general rule is that books with the genre "childrens" can only be used for 20,25,30,50 point tasks if they have at least 300 pages or unless short childrens book are specifically allowed in the task.
Dee wrote: "yep, as long as there is no page limit specified then you can read it; the only caveat would be the book shelved as childrens and the need to be 300+ pgs"ok, that is how i understood it but i wanted to make sure!
thanks!
:)
Well, I am happy with the new rules regarding children's books.I did have a question about the group reads that I thought I might pose here (I think this is the right place?):
Are we supposed to read all 3 of the Group Reads or just one of them? Er, rather, can we get 60 points for reading all three or is it just a 20 point max?
Emily wrote: "Are we supposed to read all 3 of the Group Reads or just one of them? Er, rather, can we get 60 points for reading all three or is it just a 20 point max?"Each task may be completed only once for points. So, you can only claim one of the Group Reads for task 20.10.
If you want to read all of them, though, I'm sure you can fit the other two into other tasks.
Just to be on the safe side, I went through all the titles in my TBR shelf and checked all those under 300 pages. I found several YA titles, but only one was listed as a children's book as well, A Day No Pigs Would Die.
I think I may have read this book when it was first published in 1972, but I can't remember so I'd shelved it thinking I'd re-read it.
I guess what I'm saying is the 300+ page count doesn't appear to be a problem for me either - since most "pure YA" under the 300+ count isn't going to be dual classified (at least not that I can see).
Thanks to the mods. I'm willing to whatever is necessary to make their job easier.
The Seasonal Reading Challenge
Books mentioned in this topic
A Day No Pigs Would Die (other topics)Conduct Unbecoming (other topics)
Bus Stories and Other Tales (other topics)
The Bobbsey Twins of Lakeport (other topics)
Go, Dog. Go! (other topics)
More...
I like that the challenge will have even more challenge to it now - having a little bit more of restriction and maybe having to branch out to different books.