The Diamond Age
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Who is writing sci-fi that pushes the limits these days?
Daniel
(last edited
Jan 27, 2013 05:30PM
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Jan 27, 2013 01:23PM
First off, this discussion isn't really about The Diamond Age. Goodreads just forced me to pick one book when I want to talk about multiple books. What I actually want to find out is what sci-fi authors are really pushing the limits of imagination these days?
Sci-fi readers are a bit different from other readers. If you're one of us, you know this. Let's face it, most sci-fi is crap. It's cliche, filled with tech that is barely different from modern tech and it's staffed with wooden characters. Yet, we swim through this river of sh*t again and again because the few gems that we find expand our mind and deliver a sense of wonder in a way no other genre can, not even fantasy.
I can count most of the wonderful and imaginative sci-fi books I've read on a pair of hands. My list may differ from yours, but it includes books like The Diamond Age, Mona Lisa Overdrive, Accelerando, Pandora's Star and Asimov's The Last Question (a short story). But I always want more. I usually just can't find it. That's why I need your help. I'm looking for anything that stands out as a truly unique form of art.
Particularly I like books that stretch deeper into the future. I want to see true tech developments, where the author has considered all the implications of that tech. It's real easy to make something 50 years in the future, slap smaller cell phones on people and some leather pants and call it sci-fi. That's weak.
I'm also not interested in crisis sci-fi where the author conveniently gins up an energy or biological crisis so that all the tech can be primitive. This can be an element of the story but not the whole story. I'm not saying this is not a valid form of story telling. It is. Its just not what I am looking for. I also don't want to see books set on backwoods tech planets for the majority of the plot. That eliminates Dune, though it is one of my favorite books. I am looking for imagination and speculation. I am looking for people who try something new with far future tech.
So what sci-fi books have you read that really smashed your expectations? My criteria are simple:
- The book should be a complete and total tour de force. Frankly I've read too many books (somewhere over 3000 I think) for a book to not hit on all fronts: language, characters, plot, dialogue, and imaginative tech.
- Character should not be sacrificed for tech.
- It should have an actual plot.
- Light tech books like Ender's Game need not apply. (I love that book, it's just not what I am talking about here.)
- Books that are so heavy on tech that they basically are just physics journals and not stories also don't work for me. This unfortunately eliminates some of the very creative books by Greg Egan, like Diaspora. That man has a towering imagination but his books are so far in the future that humans have ceased to exist and hence human emotion is gone.
That's it. It's a tough set of criteria. Yet, it's safe to say that any book that fits them will be worth a read.
Sci-fi readers are a bit different from other readers. If you're one of us, you know this. Let's face it, most sci-fi is crap. It's cliche, filled with tech that is barely different from modern tech and it's staffed with wooden characters. Yet, we swim through this river of sh*t again and again because the few gems that we find expand our mind and deliver a sense of wonder in a way no other genre can, not even fantasy.
I can count most of the wonderful and imaginative sci-fi books I've read on a pair of hands. My list may differ from yours, but it includes books like The Diamond Age, Mona Lisa Overdrive, Accelerando, Pandora's Star and Asimov's The Last Question (a short story). But I always want more. I usually just can't find it. That's why I need your help. I'm looking for anything that stands out as a truly unique form of art.
Particularly I like books that stretch deeper into the future. I want to see true tech developments, where the author has considered all the implications of that tech. It's real easy to make something 50 years in the future, slap smaller cell phones on people and some leather pants and call it sci-fi. That's weak.
I'm also not interested in crisis sci-fi where the author conveniently gins up an energy or biological crisis so that all the tech can be primitive. This can be an element of the story but not the whole story. I'm not saying this is not a valid form of story telling. It is. Its just not what I am looking for. I also don't want to see books set on backwoods tech planets for the majority of the plot. That eliminates Dune, though it is one of my favorite books. I am looking for imagination and speculation. I am looking for people who try something new with far future tech.
So what sci-fi books have you read that really smashed your expectations? My criteria are simple:
- The book should be a complete and total tour de force. Frankly I've read too many books (somewhere over 3000 I think) for a book to not hit on all fronts: language, characters, plot, dialogue, and imaginative tech.
- Character should not be sacrificed for tech.
- It should have an actual plot.
- Light tech books like Ender's Game need not apply. (I love that book, it's just not what I am talking about here.)
- Books that are so heavy on tech that they basically are just physics journals and not stories also don't work for me. This unfortunately eliminates some of the very creative books by Greg Egan, like Diaspora. That man has a towering imagination but his books are so far in the future that humans have ceased to exist and hence human emotion is gone.
That's it. It's a tough set of criteria. Yet, it's safe to say that any book that fits them will be worth a read.
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Vernor Vinge's Zones of thought novels may interest you. Vernor Vinge. You might also try Altered Carbon. I have heard good things about peter k. hamilton, but I cannot confirm.
Octavia butler all the way. It is a damn shame that she passed recently because i felt like she was one of the few Sci-Fi authors out there that were pushing the limits and made readers re-evaluate the way they thought about humanity. Please read Dawn or the xeno-genesis trilogy and you will see what I mean.
If you haven't read the Hyperion Cantos, I highly recommend at least the first two, http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77..., and http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77...
They are among my all time favorites, which also include Diamond Age and Pandora's Star, for comparison of taste.
They are among my all time favorites, which also include Diamond Age and Pandora's Star, for comparison of taste.
That's a tough challenge, but off the top of my head I would recommend Alastair Reynolds Revelation Space universe. It starts with the book of the same name then goes with Redemption Ark and Absolution Gap. Not sure if it truly pushes the envelop as Gibson of Stephenson did, but it does distill a whole lot of speculative and realistic ideas into one volume. And the hardness of its hard sci-fi angle is without a doubt. Reynolds was an astrophysicist in real life, so the science may be speculative, but its grounded in real knowledge and theory.
I shall have to think on this longer and harder in order to come up with more ideas, not just in answer your query, but also for my own interest. I too am wondering where the gems are these days, who stands to take the place of the once-greats who are no longer with us, or have since slid into a nice, comfy retirement.
I shall have to think on this longer and harder in order to come up with more ideas, not just in answer your query, but also for my own interest. I too am wondering where the gems are these days, who stands to take the place of the once-greats who are no longer with us, or have since slid into a nice, comfy retirement.
Some of Ken Macleod's Fall Revolution series come to mind. I can't remember which in that series, but some of them get pretty heavy into new forms of consciousness, as in post-singularity digital minds.
China Mieville's City & the City isn't far future or massively high tech, but it does have one of the more far-out (or at least creatively handled) vies of multiple dimensions I've read. And is really quite a nice break from his horror/fantasy/steampunk type stuff. Fundamentally it's a detective story, but I found it smart and well conceived.
David Marusek's Counting Heads and Mind Over Ship I've seen touted as kind of fitting your criteria...however, honestly, I found them a bit lighter than expected. Still enjoyed them, though.
Same with Rudy Rucker's Tetrology, but if you haven't read at least Software and Wetware then I'd recommend them, if you don't mind a lot of "transgressive" literature elements and a heavy dose of social satire. They have really ground breaking ideas of robotics and artificial intelligence that still sound fresh almost 30 years after they were written.
...Maybe I'm jaded, though, I'm not finding a lot of totally mind blowing work out there.
China Mieville's City & the City isn't far future or massively high tech, but it does have one of the more far-out (or at least creatively handled) vies of multiple dimensions I've read. And is really quite a nice break from his horror/fantasy/steampunk type stuff. Fundamentally it's a detective story, but I found it smart and well conceived.
David Marusek's Counting Heads and Mind Over Ship I've seen touted as kind of fitting your criteria...however, honestly, I found them a bit lighter than expected. Still enjoyed them, though.
Same with Rudy Rucker's Tetrology, but if you haven't read at least Software and Wetware then I'd recommend them, if you don't mind a lot of "transgressive" literature elements and a heavy dose of social satire. They have really ground breaking ideas of robotics and artificial intelligence that still sound fresh almost 30 years after they were written.
...Maybe I'm jaded, though, I'm not finding a lot of totally mind blowing work out there.
I realize what you mean with Egan - he does have quite a problem with just raw words instead of story. However, his book Teranesia is a lot different from others. It's pretty much today + 20 years, has a interesting main character. It's the book I usually use to introduce people to Egan, you may want to try it even if burned on Egan's other stuff.
Some of the books I've read lately that I felt were better than the normal crap that seems to be published today:
The Wind-up Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi
Enbassytown by China Mieville
Light by M. John Harrison
The Quantum Thief by Hannu Rajaniemi
Midnight Robber by Nalo Hopkinson
Illium and Olympus by Dan Simmons
The Wind-up Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi
Enbassytown by China Mieville
Light by M. John Harrison
The Quantum Thief by Hannu Rajaniemi
Midnight Robber by Nalo Hopkinson
Illium and Olympus by Dan Simmons
It sounds like you might like Kathleen Goonan's 'River' series, that starts with "Queen City Jazz" http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59.... It's about a nanotech revolution gone wrong. People consider it post-apocalyptic, but I think it's more post-major-disaster than apocalypse.
Hmm, the limits of imagination. Well, there's not a lot of it around. Stross has some good work. He's been quite prolific and has written across several interests so it's difficult to pick one book in particular. Iain M. Banks has been outstanding generally. Note that Iain Banks is the same person, but he uses the M. name for his SF stuff. Sadly he has recently announced he is in the grip of a terminal illness. Gibsons early work was unique at the time but his later work has drifted from his earlier style, which has upset some people. Nonetheless I believe he remains a writer to look for. Ian McDonald's Dervish House was quite intriguing. The recent James S.A. Corey sequence has been very good, with a third book about to be released. Another recent series has been the Samuil Petrovich novels by Simon Morden. And have your tried Stephenson's Reamde?
I'll second (or third, or whatever) the recommendations for Octavia Butler and Geoff Ryman, and oh well, you already know Iain M. Banks. (Do try "Player of Games" if you haven't read it.) Charles Stross is very good. I found both Ted Chiang's short story collection "Stories of Your Life" and Ellen Klages's "Portable Childhoods" to be stunningly good; the caveat is that they may be too low-tech and more people-focused than suits your interests. John Varley's future is mostly older work ('80s, I think?) but IMO is less dated than some of its contemporaries and even recent stuff; I'd recommend the short stories ("The Persistence of Vision" and "The Barbie Murders" especially).
I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Ian McDonald yet. I haven't read any of his YA books, but Brasyl and River of Gods are amazing reads and I'm looking forward to reading even more of his in the near future.
I second Hannu Rajaniemi. The Quantum Thief and The Fractal Prince are a mind-blowing ride, and I'm waiting impatiently for the third book to be published. China Miéville's books push boundaries too. I really enjoyed The City and the City, although it may be more surreal fiction than science fiction.
I'd also suggest you give Greg Egan's Distress a try. It's more accessible than many of his other novels, and has a compelling, very human story at its core.
I'd also suggest you give Greg Egan's Distress a try. It's more accessible than many of his other novels, and has a compelling, very human story at its core.
Try John Varley - not distant future, but very interesting thoughts on what tech could do to people (e.g. What will it be like when we can change sex as easily as we now change hairstyle?). His Gaea trilogy is great, but probably not what you are looking for. Try his short stories or "Millenium".
There's a short story "Day Million" by Fred Pohl that tries to imagine what life will be like 1,000,000 days in the future (that's a few thousand years).
Quite a lot of Larry Niven's writing involves a lot of new technology, but what I think Niven does best is come up with interesting aliens.
There's a short story "Day Million" by Fred Pohl that tries to imagine what life will be like 1,000,000 days in the future (that's a few thousand years).
Quite a lot of Larry Niven's writing involves a lot of new technology, but what I think Niven does best is come up with interesting aliens.
Bhakta Jim
"Day Million" is a favorite of mine, but I remember it being a million days after the birth of Christ. It is supposed to be a love story and I suppose
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You have to be careful which books of his you choose, but Gene Wolfe might float your boat, specifically his Book of the New Sun series from the 1980s. Wolfe's style of writing is not for everyone, as it is often first-person, with unreliable narrators. Still, if you can meet him halfway, it can be mind-blowing. The New Sun books take place at an undetermined time in the future, though it is likely many thousands, if not millions, of years ahead. The tech is almost baffling, even mixed with seem alien technology that comes off as mystical. But don't think that this means it's fantasy (though Wolfe does write fantasy, and there are some elements of that). Wolfe was, actually, an engineer before a writer, so he knows his tech, no doubt. However, he never gets too heavy with it. He wraps a lot of religious and philosophical elements into his works in very creative ways, but you have to read very closely to glean them all.
Try "Shadow of the Torturer" - the first book in the series. It will probably be baffling at first, but if you can stick with the whole book, you'll get a good idea of what the full series is like.
Try "Shadow of the Torturer" - the first book in the series. It will probably be baffling at first, but if you can stick with the whole book, you'll get a good idea of what the full series is like.
A list in no particular order:
Jeff Noon (particularly "Vurt"), for his musical and experimental prose style that generally occupies a dark, poetic space that's part Gibson, part Jorge Luis Borges; or possibly the surreal drug-fiction of Irvine Welsh or William Burroughs married to the mystical-yet-techy edge of Philip K. Dick, but with a much more distinctive and entertaining writing style.
Steve Aylett ("Bigot Hall", an episodic novel; "Slaughtermatic" and "Atom", hyperviolent and darkly comic cyberpunk stories; "Shamanspace" for his most experimental and fragmented experiments in writing something more akin to plot-driven poetry) - he is the master of the eponym, and I'm hard pressed to find anyone else that can write such funny sentences (perhaps Douglas Adams, but he's less cynical).
Robert Charles Wilson ("Spin") - the first book in a trilogy, but the second book left me a little wanting; nonetheless Spin is brilliant science fiction that's chock full of ideas. It is part coming-of-age story, part "tech-opera", about the impending end of the world and mankind's clever ideas at how to mitigate the disaster. I caution you not to read too much about the plot in advance, because his ideas are so smart that the element of surprise will really enhance your enjoyment.
Frank Herbert's Dune - well, of course you've heard of it, but in case you haven't read it... Essential.
Jonathan Lethem (in the sci-fi genre, "Gun, With Occasional Music" and "As She Climbed Across the Table") - the former is a dystopic future-noir detective story with a third-act twist that absolutely blew me away with its audacity; the latter is a story about a professor who is in a love triangle with another woman and a void-anomaly (dubbed "Lack") that she has discovered in her Physics laboratory. Lethem's also written great stuff outside the genre ("Motherless Brooklyn", another noir detective story whose protagonist suffers from Tourette's Syndrome, comes to mind), but either of these are great reads with inventive conceits.
Samuel Delany ("Dhalgren") - a gigantic tome of a book, the closest sci-fi approximation that I can think of to Joyce's Ulysses. Difficult/challenging, and most of the joy of this book for me is in its language, as its plot, while clever, can be very hard to follow as a result of its fractured narrative - which also gives it its charm. If you found Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon" satisfying, you may be a candidate for this book as well - not that they're very similar, but they both require a degree of concentration absent from your typical mass-market genre fare. Personally it wow'ed me.
Jeff Noon (particularly "Vurt"), for his musical and experimental prose style that generally occupies a dark, poetic space that's part Gibson, part Jorge Luis Borges; or possibly the surreal drug-fiction of Irvine Welsh or William Burroughs married to the mystical-yet-techy edge of Philip K. Dick, but with a much more distinctive and entertaining writing style.
Steve Aylett ("Bigot Hall", an episodic novel; "Slaughtermatic" and "Atom", hyperviolent and darkly comic cyberpunk stories; "Shamanspace" for his most experimental and fragmented experiments in writing something more akin to plot-driven poetry) - he is the master of the eponym, and I'm hard pressed to find anyone else that can write such funny sentences (perhaps Douglas Adams, but he's less cynical).
Robert Charles Wilson ("Spin") - the first book in a trilogy, but the second book left me a little wanting; nonetheless Spin is brilliant science fiction that's chock full of ideas. It is part coming-of-age story, part "tech-opera", about the impending end of the world and mankind's clever ideas at how to mitigate the disaster. I caution you not to read too much about the plot in advance, because his ideas are so smart that the element of surprise will really enhance your enjoyment.
Frank Herbert's Dune - well, of course you've heard of it, but in case you haven't read it... Essential.
Jonathan Lethem (in the sci-fi genre, "Gun, With Occasional Music" and "As She Climbed Across the Table") - the former is a dystopic future-noir detective story with a third-act twist that absolutely blew me away with its audacity; the latter is a story about a professor who is in a love triangle with another woman and a void-anomaly (dubbed "Lack") that she has discovered in her Physics laboratory. Lethem's also written great stuff outside the genre ("Motherless Brooklyn", another noir detective story whose protagonist suffers from Tourette's Syndrome, comes to mind), but either of these are great reads with inventive conceits.
Samuel Delany ("Dhalgren") - a gigantic tome of a book, the closest sci-fi approximation that I can think of to Joyce's Ulysses. Difficult/challenging, and most of the joy of this book for me is in its language, as its plot, while clever, can be very hard to follow as a result of its fractured narrative - which also gives it its charm. If you found Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon" satisfying, you may be a candidate for this book as well - not that they're very similar, but they both require a degree of concentration absent from your typical mass-market genre fare. Personally it wow'ed me.
I liked the "Diamond Age" also.
I do like SF books that are plausible with the possible technologies.
Time Travel and Space warp turns me off a bit.
I liked:
"The Windup Girl" by Paola Bacigalupi. Far Future.
"Rainbows End" by Vernor Vinge. Near Future.
"Rule 34" and "Halting State" by Charles Stross... Near Future.
However I think if you liked "Diamond Age" I think you'll like "The Windup Girl".
Or turn back time and go with Isaac Asimov's Robot Novels.
Or any of Robert A. Heinlein. Still in my opinion with very plausible farout futures.
I do like SF books that are plausible with the possible technologies.
Time Travel and Space warp turns me off a bit.
I liked:
"The Windup Girl" by Paola Bacigalupi. Far Future.
"Rainbows End" by Vernor Vinge. Near Future.
"Rule 34" and "Halting State" by Charles Stross... Near Future.
However I think if you liked "Diamond Age" I think you'll like "The Windup Girl".
Or turn back time and go with Isaac Asimov's Robot Novels.
Or any of Robert A. Heinlein. Still in my opinion with very plausible farout futures.
China Mieville is your man. You will never have read anything like him.
I thought Peter Watts' Blindsight was pretty compelling. There are characters, though they are a bit cartoonish, but it's the hardest of hard science fiction and the story is pretty good, too.
I also second those who proposed the names of Iain M. Banks and Alastair Reynonlds, especially the former, whose SF is of literary quality.
Vernor Vinge was one of those extreme libertarian types who used to be common in the SF writing community a generation or two ago (think Heinlein, Niven et al.) He wrote hard SF that was quite decent if you didn't mind his rotten politics and cardboard characters. Not recommended for the more sophisticated reader.
I also second those who proposed the names of Iain M. Banks and Alastair Reynonlds, especially the former, whose SF is of literary quality.
Vernor Vinge was one of those extreme libertarian types who used to be common in the SF writing community a generation or two ago (think Heinlein, Niven et al.) He wrote hard SF that was quite decent if you didn't mind his rotten politics and cardboard characters. Not recommended for the more sophisticated reader.
Stephanson and Gibson seem to fit your criteria. I agree that Diamond Age is a great book. I also agree with Ms. nogood about Octavia Butler being brilliant but I'm not sure she meets the criteria you give. I think Cyteenby C.J. Cherryh might be one you would enjoy.
Geoff Ryman is the author who has an otherliness about him. The Unconquered Country (novella), The Child Garden, and Air are all genuinely different.
Glad to see some folks giving some good responses here. So far there are a few on the list that I haven't touched yet. I'm looking forward to hearing more. It's a hard thing to pin down but worth the effort. Some of my favorite books of all time are on this list. They made me see the universe in a new way. It's worth the effort. Thanks for the thoughtful responses so far and keep them coming!
I forgot to include Iain M Banks. I've enjoyed a number of his books. Surface Detail really did it for me, with its concepts of virtual hells that religious societies secretly keep. It looks like he just published a new book called the Hydrogen Sonata on 2012. Looking at that now.
I forgot to include Iain M Banks. I've enjoyed a number of his books. Surface Detail really did it for me, with its concepts of virtual hells that religious societies secretly keep. It looks like he just published a new book called the Hydrogen Sonata on 2012. Looking at that now.
I'd maybe try China Mieville's 'Embassytown'? It's not perhaps very much into the details of technology, (a bit more than Philip Dick, but he certainly doesn't address the mechanics of things if that is what you're after) but it is genuinely original, and also wonderfully imaginative.
Your opinion of Egan notwithstanding I'd challenge you to read his Zendegi. It starts in our days and continues into not very distant future. It is very different from his other books I read (which I also liked, but they fit your rejection criteria while this one - I think - doesn't).
Of younger authors my favorite is Hannu Rajaniemi, I loved his The Quantum Thief. I also like his short stories which you can find online.
Of younger authors my favorite is Hannu Rajaniemi, I loved his The Quantum Thief. I also like his short stories which you can find online.
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