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Historia von D. Johann Fausten
Historia D. Faustus - Faust 2013
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Discussion - Week Two - Historia D. Johann Faustus - Part III & IV / Conclusions
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Well, given my theological bias, some of my answers to the above questions, Jim, are obviously predictable. I have chosen to believe (despite myself) in eternity, etc. & to view my life from that perspective. So, if one is able to believe, then imitating the life of Christ for a relatively short time is worth the promise of eternal life (even the promise may be sufficient to give meaning to a life). As a 21st century person who on many levels expects gratification now (or at least in the foreseeable future), who values the life of the intellect and words almost to the point of idolatry, who "believes" in science as an answer to most things, this does feel alien & sometimes ridiculous. But as someone who lives comfortably within the gifts of this era, I also feel that it is not "enough" for me, that I want something even more satisfying than literature. I don't believe in Hell but I believe being in the presence of God is heaven.I believe that living in the hubris that one is God or God-like is a kind of hell that cuts one of from others.
However, in my 20s, I was all about success in this world and totally believed in salvation through art and/or successful career.
Mod
You didn't sign anything in blood, did you?!
One big disconnect for me when reading things like this 16th-century Faust book is how different the everyday world was then, compared to the nano-speed digi-world we're asked to participate in. These old stories set in feudal and totalitarian societies with fairly dominant religious institutions are so far removed from what most modern Western countries are like, it's hard to relate in a serious way to the conflicts presented.
In this age, it's quite easy to have zero relation to religion and get along quite alright without having to worry about the villagers burning me at the stake as a heretic. And so, in many places in this 21st century, God and faith and religious practice are completely optional. And further so, the Faustian bargains often encountered now are between people, or between human activities and nature/resources, and so on. And the price paid on these bargains happens pretty much entirely in the here and now - although there's no empirical evidence to prove hell (or heaven) doesn't exist, so who knows?
I think often about religious fundamentalists and what their motives might be in trying to follow to the letter the prescriptions of their prophets for living a life in accordance with their gods. Strong faith is something to believe in, I suppose. Maybe it gives them a foundation to feel stable and secure in what is otherwise a cold and random universe.
I think most people would take the Faustian bargain. I don't believe in God, so I don't think they're literally getting eternity in torment for whatever shitty thing they're doing right now, but I do think that most people show themselves capable of sacrificing their sense of being a good person for immediate personal gain...which is close enough for my purposes. And that is a bummer!Like Faust, I think people are just really good at not really examining the consequences. 24 years seems like a long way off! And people think, "By that time I'll figure a way out of this."
For me, as a guy who doesn't believe in the afterlife, heaven and hell don't factor into my decisions - but my goal is to look back from my deathbed and think, "Yeah - nice job there, dude." (And then, like, high-five someone.) Materially, that moment means the same as heaven.
What do y'all think? Have you ever taken a Faustian bargain? Do you think "I wouldn't, but everyone else totally would"?
I'm agnostic and don't consider any established religious belief as credible. Because of that, I believe this is all there is, and my idea is the same as Alex's, to look back on my life, from my deathbed, and be content, satisfied, accomplished.However, even not believing, I wouldn't take such a bargain, because I don't believe in things that come too easily, and I don't like owing anyone anything. But I think some people always seem to be looking for the easiest way out, and would do anything for money, power and pleasure.
I agree with Jim that it is difficult reading this kind of moralistic religious text in the 21st century, after Western societies came a long way to guarantee social and religious freedoms. Harder still, for me, is to think how intrusive religious behaviour was back then, how other people really felt compelled to intervene in others' lives and even report back unbelievers to authorities and so on, because it meant saving their souls or, in the least, ridding the society of a rotten apple. In the case of a person like Faust, religious fanatics would think "good riddance" and use him as a case study to teach against pride, greed and lust.
I was surprised how little of societal judgment is apparent in Faustus. In a lot of the anecdotes, he was almost the hero (or at least the comedic anti-hero). The only ones who really confronted him were the old man, who very gently tried to turn him back to God, and his friends at the end who said that if they had but known, they could have helped him repent. The emphasis throughout was on choice and not threats. I thought it had a very 'judgment belongs to the Lord not man' idealism.
Yeah, what's with Faust being the hero at times?
Mod
Very few people know about his deal with the devil. Instead, they think of him as a talented astrologer who is always correct, and so - hero.
But he actually uses his power for good a few times, which complicates him - that's what I was referring to.
Alex wrote: "But he actually uses his power for good a few times, which complicates him - that's what I was referring to."I'll turn this around and ask you why you think Faustus SHOULDN'T be a character with some moral complexity? I read it as a work of literature, not a Goofus and Gallant level pamphlet on Godly behavior.
Mod
Highlights for Kids! Makes me think of doctors' offices.
From the beginning, Faustus was pursuing knowledge for the sake of the power it would give him. He wanted to know the workings of heaven and hell and all that encompassed the universe. Not content with worldly knowledge, he wanted to know all that God knew so he could be a god himself. Nowhere in the text is it suggested that his purpose was to do evil. Certainly sending Mephistopheles out to procure wine, wealth and women for Faustus was criminal activity, but its purpose was satisfaction of lust and appetite. The grand project was universal knowledge and its attendant power.
During the middle ages there wasn't a lot of difference between science and magic -- Isaac Newton believed that base metals could be turned into gold and studied alchemy and many astronomers and mathematicians believed in astrology. That is a different way of seeing the world than the one we use, and it is difficult to put Faust's true bargain into modern context. He was bargaining for more than wealth, he wanted to know how the world worked -- the same curiosity that corrupted Eve. One way of looking at Faust today is to say that we already entered into a Faustian bargain and gave up religion and faith in exchange for knowledge. Thus we have the power to destroy ourselves or worse to understand and watch while we destroy ourselves without being able to do anything about it.
I think that you can find examples of Faustian bargains if you look at some of the Republican Presidential candidates. People who were once reasonable, compromising politicians have taken extreme positions to appeal to the conservative, right wing in the party just to have a chance to win the Iowa straw poll and become a front runner in the presidential race. You could also look at espionage cases -- I am always surprised at how little money is paid to people who reveal state secrets.
Mod
A favorite saying related to politics comes from Jerry Garcia - "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil."
More generically, many life choices have faustian tinges to them - choosing career over family, choosing money over ethics, or ethics over money, or paper over plastic - every choice has consequences, some major, some minor. The Faust legend is all about turning away from faith in God for the gratification of the present. In the 16th century, that was about the biggest social crime one could commit, and maybe that's where its popularity and notoriety originated - the power of a taboo subject set as fiction.
Hmm, the more I think about it the more Faust could be read as modern if you simply substituted "hell" in this time period with "death" nowadays, something many people fear. Thus, you could simply read it as just a story about an individual who has decided to be creative about his way of getting to the top, and another individual duping him horribly.Faustus does help people too, and is compared to Simon Magus, (who if I may recall my bible reading for literature's sake, because it's all literature in my head somehow may be noted is himself kind of reigning in on Jesus's acts within the book of the same name.) Thus, I'm more inclined to think of Faustus as morally ambivalent. Also note that despite the bloodbath, we never see Faustus in Hell after his death, just merely his evisceration out in the dung heap.
It's also interesting that perhaps the most powerful thing in the entire story, and the thing that both individuals have agreement on is sticking to the contract, which suddenly has superseded God.
But overall, I enjoyed this once I put down the moral, and I think many other readers can too, even those back then, and just enjoyed the story which I found picaresque at times. It's collegiate so could be played for drunken laughs even, which sometimes I think this writer does.
I'll have to add it to my list of classics that end in bloodbaths.
A lot of literature from the Middle Ages and Reformation that is anticlerical or anti-church is written as satire or slapstick because it was safer than outright criticism. If you read Gargantua on the Magical Realism list you will see more of this.
Mod
The discussion thread can be found here:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Part III – Faustus conjures to entertain the Emperor at Innsbruck. Faustus escorts some college lads to a Wedding in Munich. Faustus borrows some money, but the interest costs him an arm and a leg. Faustus wows some college boys by conjuring the spirit of Helen in a deep purple robe – hubba hubba! Faustus harasses a peasant and snips a sorcerer’s stem. An old man counsels Faustus to turn away from evil. Hearing of this develoment, Mephistopheles insists on a contract amendment.
Part IV – Faustus plays matchmaker and collects a handsome fee. Faustus bewitches some knights and sells their horses for a profit. Faustus takes Helen as a bedfellow and makes her great with celestial child. Faustus plays cock-blocker to help an old friend. Faustus leaves his worldly possessions to his apprentice. “Alas!” laments Faustus as his contract nears its terminus. Faustus throws a farewell bash before the Devil arrives to collect his debt.
And so, in the end Faustus honors his word and lets the Devil claim his body and soul. Was 24 years a reasonable exchange for Faustus’ soul? Does the transient nature of power, secret knowledge, lust, and gluttony seem worth risking eternal damnation? If not, is eternity in heaven worth a life of suffering and deprivation on earth? Is it surprising to our 21st century sensibilities that this kind of head trip worked so well for so many centuries (sort of)?