Classics Without All the Class discussion
Jan 2013 -The Age of Innocence
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May's perceptions and deception - spoiler alert
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I found it only half true. It's from Newland's pov so it's unreliable. May badly wanted and got the sterile prosperous family life that her circle aspired. She also recognized that the world does indeed change hence the visits to Mrs. Struthers. I suspect May is the most content by the end of the story pretty much getting everything she wants with little compromise and in a novel where I basically liked no one she's the only one who won my respect.
Let's face it: Newland's view of his wife is one that is not colored by love; and I think this leads to his harsh judgement of her. Note that later, when he imagines what life Ellen has been leading over the years, his view of her is one of a more scintillating life...but, really, who knows? Newland stood apart from May, and judged her; but he never really knew her, or what was going on in her mind.
Gail wrote: "Let's face it: Newland's view of his wife is one that is not colored by love; and I think this leads to his harsh judgement of her. Note that later, when he imagines what life Ellen has been leadi..."I have to agree with Gail (message 3) but at the same time Newland made May happy. We often see that when Newland is in the presence of May and torn by his attraction to Ellen, this somehow must not show on his face or in his actions. In these very scenes, May is happy, often even radiant, in her feelings towards Newland.
In the end you find out that may in fact knew all along about Ellen and archer. You know, I think that archer was just a coward and selfish. I understand that society was against divorce and such, but this all could have been avoided. The only thing I enjoyed about this book that didn't make me angry was the parts where archer and Ellen meet and before he officially is unfaithful even though he says he was faithful. It made me so angry how archer just didn't end the engagement or at least let the engagement end on Kay's accounts. Se gave him a way out, he knew he had feelings for Ellen. It's just annoying to me I guess. It's so truly representational of how our past generations of women were. They let pele walk all of them in order to avoid a scene. Sorry all- just finished it and I'm truly angry with Archer. If he was real I'd give him a piece of my mind! May deserved better!
This was written furiously from my phone I apologize for the misspellings!
Alexis, preach on! I was increasingly frustrated with Newland. And the ending-- my god! He can't blame society or May or anyone/thing at that point. He's trapped himself into that life. Tragic.Re: May
She's certainly not as simple as Newland suggests, but I hesitate to say she was ever deliberately malicious or cunning in keeping Newland with her. In fact, it seems she was perfectly content keeping in line with the "dull" perception.
Yes. He has trapped himself but don't you think the way she acts before the marriage, how she filters information to Newland and lying to her cousin about the pregnancy (these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head) point to someone who is a little more than a passive bystander?Newland doesn't see the inner life of May but I'm pretty sure she's got him pegged pretty well.
May worked the system, no doubt about it. But I don't think she had any huge machinations so much as she was following the social codes of the day. May's actions allowed them all to save face and maintain the status quo (to which Newland is equally attached).It's all very passive aggressive, I guess, but I believe that May believed she was doing right-- and benefited from it.
EDIT: Must have edited this response a million times! Sorry! May's tricky!
I would have loved to read a companion novel by Wharton - same story from May's point of view. I think May grew from being a naive, sweet girl to being a passive-aggressive woman who acted when she saw her world was threatened. She is just doing what she thinks is right, but, she doesn't do it in a straightforward way. The dinner party for Ellen! Wow. But she was just living in line with her culture. Saving face and not causing scandal was so important.
It would have been interesting if Wharton had shared with us the thoughts of either Ellen or May so that we might have known what either of them was thinking.
The importance of saving face is true and Newland did create this mess. I think I may need to soften my view of May given the circumstances.
Audrey wrote: "Alexis, preach on! I was increasingly frustrated with Newland. And the ending-- my god! He can't blame society or May or anyone/thing at that point. He's trapped himself into that life. Tragic.Re..."
Audrey, i am with you on that about your hesitance. I think she might have been as innocent as he thought in the beginning but I think as time went on she figured it out. I think its more complicated then to say if she did it to drive ellen away. In the first place, ellen really never wanted to actually be with archer. she was afraid to hurt everyone that had "cared" for her and refused to run away with him. I think may lied about her pregnancy or whatever but I think it was to test the waters a little bit, maybe add a little nudge to get her to leave.
She talks about how she "misjudged" ellen, and I think May was very observant. I think she knew somehow that ellen would hear that she was pregnant and it would only reinforce her decision to leave. May knew all along what was going on, Wharton drops hints every so often, especially in dialogue when she keeps on pushing for a response from archer and I could feel that may was trying to get archer to say what was happening even if she didnt know for sure.
It says many times in the book how it was against norms to create a scene. She wouldn't have said anything bc she didn't want to create an issue. May told her son she knew archer was unfaithful.
Alexis wrote: "It says many times in the book how it was against norms to create a scene. She wouldn't have said anything bc she didn't want to create an issue. May told her son she knew archer was unfaithful."Not only was it against the norm to create a scene, but it was often a given that the husbands in upper society often had mistresses. I'm not a hundred percent sure when she knew, but for sure by the time she announced her pregnancy she did, in my opinion.
Yes, and not only is it necessary for May to act proper, but the Countess is a part of her own family, so she's likely even much more conflicted about the issue of Archer's infidelity.
I agree with all of you. Yeah I'm pretty sure when they addressed the fact that husbands had mistresses they mentioned or alluded that the wife was supposed to turn her cheek. Idk either way archer was a selfish person who was just blinded by an obsession over someone he couldn't have
Was Archer so selfish? I think that the reason he was fighting his urge to be with Ellen so much is that he wasn't, at heart, a selfish person. He kept his engagement to May because he wanted to do the "right" thing by everyone -- May, Ellen, society. Even calling off the engagement after it had been announced would have been very detrimental to May's reputation and future marriage prospects. I think we have to be very careful not to judge these characters against the norms of our current society rather than against the norms and strictures of their own. This book, to me, is a criticism of a society that has become so rigid that there is no room for passion or love...only duty.
Sometimes duty means doing what is honorable for ones family. Ellen pushed Archer away to save his relationships with May and family. Someone mentioned him being trapped and yet aren't there always things in life that keep us where we are, for the sake of not disrupting the lives of others? Isn't that often the honorable thing to do? May knew that Archer loved Ellen, that understanding had to be difficult for her, yet he stayed and they both made it work. Was it soul mates or paradise? Probably not but they had a long life together with success in Archer's career and three precious children, one of whom seemed to really understand his father. There are always trade offs in life. I don't judge any of the characters except maybe Larry Lefferts! (Pig :))As for Ellen, May and Archer, I think they I'd the best they could all things considered. My 2 cents.
Michelle wrote: "Was Archer so selfish? I think that the reason he was fighting his urge to be with Ellen so much is that he wasn't, at heart, a selfish person. He kept his engagement to May because he wanted to ..."you make a good point here. I seem to recall her giving him the option to get out of it before it was announced but I recognize I could be wrong. I dont know, I just feel like he should have at least had the decency to tell may. She just deserved better in my opinion. Im glad that he decided not to meet up with ellen at the end afterall, i feel like it was him trying to respect may in that way.
Alexis wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Was Archer so selfish? I think that the reason he was fighting his urge to be with Ellen so much is that he wasn't, at heart, a selfish person. He kept his engagement to May beca..."I don't think he ever "decided" not to meet with Ellen. I feel like he would have gone, except that decision was made for him when Ellen decided to leave New York for Europe due to the conversation with May in which she announced her pregnancy. Newland becomes a spectator to everything happening around him at that point and is only along for the ride. Even afterward, when he describes his life with his wife and children, it seems like he is merely an observer and barely a participant to life going on around him.
im talking about at the very end... have you finished it yet?
Alexis wrote: "im talking about at the very end... have you finished it yet?"Me? Yes.
I was talking about the very end when he is sitting on the bench and decides not to go into ellens house with his son.
Alexis wrote: "I was talking about the very end when he is sitting on the bench and decides not to go into ellens house with his son."Ah. I see. I thought you meant that he decided not to meet with Ellen when they finally decided to meet to spend one night with eachother.
I spent most of the book disliking May. I just found her so...flat. But after finishing it and reflecting on her whole character and all her actions, I somewhat admire her.Archer's assessment of her was bias and unfair. What I see when I look at her is a woman who is fighting to uphold the norms of her society but has also found a way to use those to her advantage. She must be very clever to be so manipulative, I think.
Instead of starting a scene with her husband, she has faith that he and her cousin will also follow societal rules once she tells them that she's pregnant. And she surrounds him with her friends, who make him feel the weight of their knowledge and suspicion, making ostracization all the more real a prospect.
She is in no way a forward-thinker, but I would still say that her meekness is sometimes a facade that she's expected to wear and manages to hold all her aces behind.
Perhaps because of May's other good qualities, I prefer to defend May here. Surely, this is not an objective statement of May's limitations. Instead this passage surely reflects Newland's perception of May and Newland (I prefer to think) often underestimated his wife.
Surely, May recognized the changes taking place in societal norms, but declined to overtly recognize these changes because she valued what was good in the Old Society. Evidence that May was astute and perceptive appears elsewhere in the book. Realizing Newland's attraction to Ellen and knowing of Ellen's good heart, May had told Ellen that she, May, was sure she was pregnant when in fact she was 2 weeks shy of being sure. This inaccuracy was deliberate. Surely, the misrepresentation was made to influence Ellen's behavior and to effect a separation between Ellen and Newland. I am disinclined to believe that May was not perceptive and did not know what was going on in the world around her.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?