GOTM - Chapter Twelve - NO SPOILERS

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

Spoilers up to chapter Twelve are ok.
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them)

[Jamie]

My favourite part of this chapter was Quick Ben's encounter with Shadowthrone. A bold move! The revelation that Quick Ben was an acolyte for this god is interesting, telling us more about him and at the same time offering up another mystery - why did he leave the Path of Shadow?

Sorry locating Quick Ben and Kalam by unknowingly tracking Quick Ben's temporary link to the Shadow Realm confirmed her as a servant of Shadowthrone. Good - I'm glad she has been discovered.

[Duffy]

Here's my puzzle in this chapter, and I think I must just be missing something.

1) Quick Ben was once an acolyte of Shadowthrone.
2) Quick Ben has been a squadron mage for Whiskeyjack dating back to the days of the Emperor.

So what's the timeline on this? I've kept things this vague, because I realize the answer may involve some spoilers.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Duffy wrote: "Here's my puzzle in this chapter, and I think I must just be missing something.

1) Quick Ben was once an acolyte of Shadowthrone.
2) Quick Ben has been a squadron mage for Whiskeyjack dating back to the days of the Emperor."

Oh its so hard to bite my tongue - you have the pieces right in front of you. So obvious on a reread - oh so cryptic the first time round.
So I'll point you to something you've already read so not really a spoiler but you have to decide if you want to look and what you see may be still too cryptic (view spoiler)[read the first poem of the book - the second half that begins "The Emperor is Dead" (hide spoiler)]

[David]

Regarding Quick and shadowthrone (view spoiler)[Wasnt quick part of the shadow cult before Kellanved ascended to the shadowthrone? So why is Kellanved so pissed at him, theres more about this in later books but it still puzzles me i.e Kellanveds enmity with quick (hide spoiler)]

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@David re your spoiler (view spoiler)[ I believe we learn a few books down the track, that the Emperor tasked QB with killing Bithadel as part of a purge of Rashan - and QB backed out - Bithadel was a big deal to ST - and he later became one of Shaik's High Mages (hide spoiler)]

[David]

David Sven wrote: "@David re your spoiler [spoilers removed]"

AH, thanks. I think I missed that. With about 10 trillion word writen so far I'm not surprised ive missed some things

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Well I think we learn that piece of info around House of Chains - so you've got a few more trillion words to get through before then

[Aaron Vincent]

How does one travel through a Warren? Some passages describe travelling through a Warren as some sort of walking around a labyrinth or corridors. Is distance and direction travelled in the Warren equals to the distance and direction travelled in the physical world?

What is clear to me, though, is that you can travel physically(displacement occurs) as what Tattersail and Hairlock did in the previous chapters and spiritually(no displacement) like what Quick Ben did in this chapter.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

All the info we get about warrens we have to infer from conversation or use. So far we've had people open their warrens within themselves to access its magic. We've had warrens like the Imperial warren and chaos warren and Shadow as separate worlds with their own geography - but with doors into different geographical locations in the Malazan's world. We've had Tool use his warren to create a bubble around himself to blunt other magic - and I believe Tatersail used her warren to create a corridor to conceal herself as she travel the normal world. So she's technically travelling in her warren - but not necessarily in the geographical Realm of her warren.

Thats the short answer - the shorter answer is that warrens are very complex and we get a lot of the rules by observation and listening in on conversations throughout the series.

[Duffy]

(view spoiler)[This is a re-read, and I know that Shadowthrone and the Emperor are the same, just as Dancer is now Cotillion. My confusion was the same as David's. But it's twofold: there's nothing in the book, so far, about a cult of Shadow. But there is a conversation between Sail, Kalam, and Ben that suggests that Shadow first made its appearance in the deck nine years ago. Ben says that the warren had been closed for 1500 years in that same conversation, while Sail appears to believe in a realm of illusions.

Then, nine years ago, Dancer and the Emperor ascend, Shadowthrone and Cotillion appear in the deck, and the warren of Shadow opens.

Yet sometime before this, Ben was a high priest of shadow, and Shadowthrone appears to be pissed at him for leaving. But he certainly left before Shadowthrone was a god, and perhaps before there even was a realm of shadow. So why is the Emperor/Shadowthrone so pissed at Ben?

You say it has to do with refusing to kill Bithadel, and you are probably right. But, if so, I'm in the same boat with the other David. There's no way I remember that. One thing that stays with me throughout the series is how shadowy, if you will, Shadowthrones motivations always seem to me. (hide spoiler)]

Another thing that impresses me on this read is that so much of our exposition comes from character dialogue, but it's often difficult to separate true exposition from instances where the characters are lying to each other (or withholding what they know).

[Rob, Quick Ben]

I really loved this chapter. In particular the part with Quick Ben and the Shadowthrone.

David Sven sometimes your comments aggravate me :)

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@Rob - Ha ha - Don't let my crypticism(is that a word?)distract you from enjoying the ride. And be sure to slap me when I'm spoiling.

[Rob, Quick Ben]

Not spoiling. More like taunting. :-)

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Its chapters like these that kept me intrigued even when I felt lost the first time round.

Have to agree, the Quick Ben and Shadowthrone encounter was choice. And we learn a couple of things.

Firstly Quick Ben and Shadowthrone have a history.
@Duffy - you were trying to work out why ST is so pissed at QB - and we get some specifics to that history in later books - but even without that we can get the general reason.

Firstly Shadow has a secret rule - which Shadowthrone makes Quick Ben recite to prove his statement that he was once an acolyte of Shadow.

'To begin upon the Path of Shadow and then to leave it is rewarded by the Rope.'
'Meaning?'
'I am marked for assassination by all who follow your ways, Lord.'

The reasons are pretty simple - you know Shadow's secrets - Once in always in. Quick Ben has just admitted to being a "former acolyte" and as soon as he proves it Shadowthrone has to stop one of the hounds from tearing him apart on the spot so he can hear him out.

Quick Ben wants his sentence lifted and in return he will hand Hairlock over. QB is now playing a very dangerous game - he is manipulating a god/ascendant into doing his bidding - QB gets ST to shut down Hairlock, AND for the privilege of doing this poor mortal's bidding, QB gets his sentence lifted - The Audacity!

What Shadowthrone is unaware of are
1. Quick Ben wants Hairlock taken out as much as Shadowthrone
2. Quick Ben was no mere acolyte privy to a few secret passwords and Shadow tricks - Quick Ben is a former HIGH PRIEST of Shadow!

He knows everything! He's the biggest traitor with the biggest target on his back ever!
So why doesn't Shadow recognise him? The answer is in their parting words as QB yanks his magic eject button

'It is you! Delat! You shape-shifting bastard!'

Shape Shifting is probably one of those secrets a High Priests of Shadow would know.

And we get direct confirmation of Quick Ben's former role later in the chapter when he's talking with Kalam.

'He realized who I was just as I left.' Quick Ben's grin broadened. 'You should have heard him scream.'
'Well, are you surprised? How many High Priests burn the robes of their vestment?'

So this gives us some explanation as to why Quick Ben is not your average mage and seems to know some unusual things like soul shifting.


For rereaders (view spoiler)[ I never really appreciated the
irony of Quick Ben coming back from Raraku as part of the Emperors elite unit - hiding in plain sight (hide spoiler)]

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Kruppe cracks me up every time

'By all means,' Kruppe said. 'There is more to life than petty thievery, after all.'
Mammot grinned. 'Why, Kruppe, I'm surprised to hear that coming from you.'

At the end of that particular conversation Mammot communicates with Baruk by Warren - which pretty much tells us that he is one of the cities mages.
Crokus has some pretty powerful friends indeed.

Tension is building between Rake and Baruk. Baruk does not want Rake poking around that Barrow outside the city. His concern in this regard seems to match Caladan Brood's. Rake is the sort of dude who will confront gods - and such a confrontation is going to be big enough to level the city. He organises to send Crokus out of the city. His reasoning is twofold that I can see - firstly - he doesn't want Rake finding out about Oponn - because then its all going to hit the fan - and secondly - if it all does hit the fan - its best it happens outside the city.

I think this is unfair of both Brood and Baruk - Rake, I think is well aware of the consequences of getting himself involved - this is evidenced by the fact that when he hears of Hairlock via Crone as well as the Imass - converging he sends Crone to check in with Baruk first. To my thinking Rake is asking - 1. Whats' going on? And 2. Can you handle it yourself?

Crone's displeasure was obvious. 'You will be kept informed of the activities on the Rhivi Plain. My lord must decide whether to intercept these powers before they reach the Gadrobi Hills.' She turned an angry eye on Baruk. 'He has received little assistance from his allies. I trust when we next speak that situation will be remedied.'

In other words - if you can't handle this problem Baruk I'm going to have to step in.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

The other thing for rereaders(view spoiler)[ we learn a bit about the crippled god from those handwritten accounts that Kruppe reads in Mammots library (hide spoiler)]

[Duffy]

David Sven wrote: "Its chapters like these that kept me intrigued even when I felt lost the first time round.

Have to agree, the Quick Ben and Shadowthrone encounter was choice. And we learn a couple of things.

Fir..."

(view spoiler)[I understand the rule in the realm of shadow against a priest leaving. I was more puzzled by why ST would have such a personal hatred for QB, when the betrayal occurred before ST ascended.

As for the "shape shifting bastard", we know from later on that QB absorbed the souls of the other mages he was with in Raraku. Isn't it possible that the body that contains these souls, and identifies itself as QB is not the same body that Delat had when he was a high priest. The soul shifting magic has been gone for over 1000 years, and that means it might not be something that even high priests of Shadow would know. Do you really think that Pust has that kind of ability? (hide spoiler)]

[Maggie]

I also wonder about Mammot. He appears to be very old, and as a mage, to look very old is to be extremely old. Thus, he could hardly actually be Crokus' uncle.

So who is Crokus in the sense of how did he end up in Mammot's care?

[seak]

Those beginning handwritten accounts were very interesting. (view spoiler)[One thing that stood out to me was that the chaining of the Crippled God must have been a pretty recent thing. The empire is only just over 100 years old and it talks about Hood and Dessembre (Dassem Ultor) who "shattered the bonds Hood held upon him. Also among the gathering were..." and then it goes into the 3 pages worth of names. That happened during the emperor's reign and not even right at the beginning.

I always thought the chaining was ancient, but this shows it's not really, right? (hide spoiler)]

I love the fact that Kruppe complains of the loquaciousness of the ancients whose tome he's reading. Kruppe of all people!

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@Duffy - I suspect (view spoiler)[ apart from what we learn later, that QB was supposed to be part of the Emperor's plans for ascension - and yes, I do think you are right that Delat's change is related to his absorbing the souls of the other mages - so ST's shape shifting comment could simply be because QB looks totally different. - but of course we don't know all these things yet :) (hide spoiler)]

[Maggie]

but in re QB (view spoiler)[If IRC we later meet his sister, and she doesnt recognize him, and there is some talk of I think it's a wolf...(this is the part Im not sure about) anyway something with being soletaken. (hide spoiler)]

[Lori]

Nice catch Seak!

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@Seak (view spoiler)[ well we know Dassem ditched Hood recently - but when did he actually ascend? Something else to look for this time round. Also is Dessembre actually a specific individual - or is it a title/aspect that changes hands? (hide spoiler)]

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Also re CG (view spoiler)[there were multiple chainings to restrict his power - so this may be a reference to the latest chaining - not the original (hide spoiler)]

[Lori]

Say wha????????

(view spoiler)[ there were multiple chainings? I didn't get that at all. heheheh definitely missed that. This is why a reread is so necessary! (hide spoiler)]

[Rob, Quick Ben]

(view spoiler)[I'm participating! (hide spoiler)]

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@Rob (view spoiler)[ Ha. I lured you into clicking the spoiler tag! Don't want you to feel left out (hide spoiler)]

[seak]

David Sven wrote: "Also re CG [spoilers removed]"

Wow, good call. I'd forgotten that. Also, regarding ... (view spoiler)[ Dessembre - I think you're right, I got the impression that Dessembre changes hands. That passage at the beginning of the chapter specifically mentions Dessembre's betrayal of Hood, so I think it's definitely Dassem at least during this, most recent, chaining. (hide spoiler)]

[seak]

Lori wrote: "Nice catch Seak!"

I may have missed a few things on that first read, you too? :D

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Maggie wrote: "I also wonder about Mammot. He appears to be very old, and as a mage, to look very old is to be extremely old. Thus, he could hardly actually be Crokus' uncle.

So who is Crokus in the sense of ho..."

That's a good point Maggie - so maybe adopted uncle - or maybe he is his uncles great great great grand daddy?

[Duffy]

If he's an uncle by blood, that means he probably has a very long-lived sibling. If it's by marriage only, then it doesn't matter how old he is. And then, of course, there are the host of people who get called "uncle" sinply because they are close to a family.

[Roberta]

"Brevity, Kruppe prays for brevity!" I love Kruppe.

I have the impression that Crokus is going to get into trouble.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

Couple of things about Sorry in this chapter, Coltillion losing control for a second and hearing a girl crying, so it sounds like the fisher girl is still in there and The Seer is lurking as well. Then at the bar, when Sorry meets Crokus and he is checking out her form ( body not killing ability) she thinks something like 'I should kill him,' 'but she knows she won't.
Why? I can't remember if sorry knows Crokus is the coin bearer at that stage.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Well Crokus lets the coin drop and spin when he pays at the counter - Sorry sees it so Cotillion would know what it is - maybe. But I got the impression that Cotillion has a slight conscience or limits - he had no problem with the thug outside - but he draws the line at a kid. Even naming the Fisher girl Sorry displays a tinge of regret or remorse.

[seak]

I thought it was interesting how Erikson really takes things from the perspective of the characters. Whiskeyjack considers Sorry a girl, so does Cotillion, but Crokus keeps referring to her as "woman." Very subtle, but I think it shows that Erikson's even thinking about these little details of perspective, which shows just how much perspective can play into this series.

[Chaz]

Seak (Bryce L.) wrote: "I thought it was interesting how Erikson really takes things from the perspective of the characters. Whiskeyjack considers Sorry a girl, so does Cotillion, but Crokus keeps referring to her as "wom..."

Great spot Seak. To Crokus she is imposing and scary but also sexy. He is a similar age to Sorry but definitely sees her as a woman rather than a girl.

[Hanne]

Rob wrote: "[spoilers removed]"
And that was the only spoiler i dared to read :)


Lee wrote: "Couple of things about Sorry in this chapter, Coltillion losing control for a second and hearing a girl crying, so it sounds like the fisher girl is still in there and The Seer is lurking as well. ..."

She knows, and so does Cotillion. The coin was right in front of her, and she comments on it. But i'm too lazy to search for the quote

[Hanne]

Seak (Bryce L.) wrote: "I thought it was interesting how Erikson really takes things from the perspective of the characters. Whiskeyjack considers Sorry a girl, so does Cotillion, but Crokus keeps referring to her as "wom..."

That's an interesting pick.
The only thing i however am a little dissapointed about right now are the poems. Despite being written by about a dozen different people, there are only 2 or 3 different styles of poems so far.

We've only met two of the writers so far. Toc the Younger had a few poems, and so does Felisin (who we technically haven't met yet, but we know who she is).

I don't yet see the point of Erikson to tell the poems from so many different perspectives. I assume he has his reasons, but then i really wished he had written them like there are a dozen authors too.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@Hanne - We will get quite a few more poem authors through the series. Right now I'm just glad I can half understand them.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

I gave up reading the poems the first time through, they make more sense, somewhat second time.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Same here Lee

[Lori]

And here, now I find them enlightening.

[Maggie]

some of them are written by people we meet later

[Renny]

Kruppe says he's reading Alladart's Realm Compendium to find his grandmother's name in it? Is he just joking or being serious?

[Renny]

I'm really confused as to why Lorn/Laseen wants to release the Jaghut Tyrant. Baruk says that the Tyrant can and will destroy D'stan. Laseen covets D'stan - it would become the jewel of the Malazan empire. Surely, they can try other ways of conquering it instead of leveling to the ground.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Renny wrote: "I'm really confused as to why Lorn/Laseen wants to release the Jaghut Tyrant. Baruk says that the Tyrant can and will destroy D'stan. Laseen covets D'stan - it would become the jewel of the Malazan..."

We learn the specific reasons further on so RAFO - but we can guess - that's the thing I love about SE - he gives us permission and enough info to speculate.
Think like a gamer. How do you use your "tank?" And do you necessarily expect your tank to win the war on its own? Now I've probably confused you more. If so, ignore me and RAFO.


Renny wrote: "Kruppe says he's reading Alladart's Realm Compendium to find his grandmother's name in it? Is he just joking or being serious?"

I think he's frustrated because there are a lot of useless names in it. So he's being sarcastic.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

No he was reding it to find specific names, I'll need to back to check what he found, in case I blurt something I shouldn't.

[Lori]

I agree with Renny - Laseen can be very stupid in her arrogance, thinking she can contain a Jaghut tyrant.

[Chaz]

Lori wrote: "I agree with Renny - Laseen can be very stupid in her arrogance, thinking she can contain a Jaghut tyrant."

I think we may be underestimating Laseen here. Someone who can claw their way to the throne of an empire like Malazan doesn't strike me as stupid. Willing to play an extremely risky game certainly but not sure about stupid. We have only two first hand encounters to try and sketch her character though.

[Pun intended]