GOTM - Chapter Twelve - NO SPOILERS

[Lori]

Well her arrogance makes her act stupidly, how about that! :D

Admittedly I already forget what she hoped to accomplish by that.

[Juniper]

I agree - Laseen's not stupid. She's a gambler. She certainly acts recklessly, but not without a track record that suggests she might succeed. And to a gambler... when there's a chance of gain, the chance of loss usually will be outweighed by the former.

My favourite part in this chapter was, as for others, the exchange between Shadowthrone and Quick Ben. Quick Ben, you sneaky wizard! How bold of him to move in on Shadowthrone like that given their history!

[Juniper]

Hanne wrote: "The only thing i however am a little dissapointed about right now are the poems. Despite being written by about a dozen different people, there are only 2 or 3 different styles of poems so far.
"

Hm, I like them. I interpret them as recounts of tales told and re-told by storytellers and jesters over many years. Stories that have travelled by word from one to another. Recounts aren't usually written down by the people in the tale, they are written down for the sake of history by others who have observed the events take place, or those few who lived to tell the tale.

I interpreted the poems as such, anyway. With that interpretation, it makes sense they are written by characters who aren't actually part of the tale.

[Hanne]

oh i'm not saying i don't like them, i think i was expecting to see more different poetic styles to come back, given that they are written by different authors. but most of the poems sound very alike, no matter who wrote them. (in fact, there are two different styles, one that seems more medieval in its exclamation of things happening, and one that sounds more modern).

that's my only point of critique. erikson didn't try very hard to make the poems sound like there were multiple authors involved

(not sure i'm making myself any more clear here, but i'm trying :))

[Lori]

Now that I've remembered what Laseen was after, not stupid.

[Juniper]

Ah, OK - no I gotcha perfectly Hanne. Your thoughts make sense!

Hmm, what are you thinking of, Lori?

[Chaz]

Read on Kat, read on. I think Lori has just read ch14 and revised her initial opinion.

[Lori]

yep, altho still arrogant to think it will go according to plan. Don't wake the sleeping baby!

[Juniper]

OK. I'll read it later today.

[Paul]

2 more good chapters down. Quick Ben and Shadowthrone was good. At this rate I should catch up by the time the fourth book is maybe halfway through!

[Rob, Quick Ben]

Yeah you seem to be moving along. Quick Ben is probably my favorite character thus far. Of course there are so many, it's hard to have just 1 favorite.

[Pepster50]

Okay so I am confused on Quick Ben being an acolyte or apparently a high mage for Shadowthrone. It is stated earlier in the novel that Shadowthrone and High House Darkness didn't come about until after the assassination of the Emperor; which happened about 7 years ago(I think). Also Quick Ben is part of the Bridgeburners, who are known as being the Emperor's most loyal and best soldiers. So it is evident that Quick Ben has been a Bridgeburner for longer than Shadowthrone has been around; where did he get time to become a high mage in the Path of Shadow? Also, I assumed it took a long time to become a High Mage in any path, especially longer than 7 years, considering that Wizards live to a very old age. If it only took a few years to become a High Mage, wouldn't every sorcerer be a high mage for their designated Warren?

Am I totally off-base here? Is their anything that clears up this timeline issue that we have read so far? I don't want to be spoiled but if somebody could let me know if this issue is addressed that would be great.

[Lori]

I think you meant shadow instead of dark house?

Anyway, I think these are great questions and I can't remember if the answers have even been hinted at, but they will be resolved. SE loves messing with our minds a bit before things become clear and GotM is the most confusing as we adjust to this world.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

This does get cleared up somewhat later in the series. Without being too spoilery, while High House Shadow may be recent - the path or Warren of Shadow isn't

From Ch 4

'Quick Ben,' she said, 'hasn't there always been an accessible Warren of Shadow? Rashan, the Warren of Illusions?'

So the Path of Shadow would have had acolytes and priests before there was the more recent High House Shadow in the Deck. What this chapter shows is that Quick Ben had a history with Shadowthrone before he became Shadowthrone.

[Silvio]

Pepster50 wrote: "Okay so I am confused on Quick Ben being an acolyte or apparently a high mage for Shadowthrone. It is stated earlier in the novel that Shadowthrone and High House Darkness didn't come about until a..."

You're picking up on more than I did with this scene. Store it away in your memory :)

[Pepster50]

Yes I meant Shadow, sorry. So many things to remember its quite daunting.

Thanks David for clearing that up. I am extremely interested by your comments, and look forward to seeing how Shadowthrone ascended. I find him and Cotillion extremely fascinating and am eager to learn more about these guys !

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Pepster50 wrote: "look forward to seeing how Shadowthrone ascended. I find him and Cotillion extremely fascinating and am eager to learn more about these guys !"

Then you are in for a real treat I think.

[Mpauli]

As I didn't have so much time to read today, it comes in handy that Chapter 12 was really short.
And although it had a lot of interesting and confusing scenes, there was little foreshadowing and if there was, you already discussed it either in spoilers or not.

So, this will sadly be a brief entry.

1) I really liked that the poem was about Apsalar.

(view spoiler)[It seems to hint on the split personality of Sorry at the moment, but also suggest that through Crokus she's going to transcend into her next form, Apsalar. (hide spoiler)]

2) Of course, I was also intrigued by the writings in Mammot's office:

Chained was the Crippled God, and so Chained was it destroyed. And upon this barren plain that imprisoned the Crippled God many gathered to the deed. Hood, grey wanderer of Death, was among the gathering, as was Dessembrae, then Hood's warrior – though it was here and in this time that Dessembrae shattered the bonds Hood held upon him. Also among the gathering were...

(view spoiler)[ I found your spoiler discussions very interesting. I absolutely agree on the part, that this was the last chaining, so it would actually be the first really solid Dassem/Dessembrae hint.

Then I was really surprised, cause the idea of Dessembrae maybe just being a title had never occurred to me. I'm going to look out for more hints pro or contra that theory.
I always assumed that it was a god and the close relation of the names Dassem/Dessem...brae is something SE uses often, when he talks about the same people just at another time.
Anomander Rake/Anomandaris Purake being the most obvious, but I think there are more throughout the series. (hide spoiler)]

Something I really like is how careful Erikson is with his phrasing.
Have you noticed how often he uses "chaining" when it comes to the CG? And the he uses another word, normally connected to chains, "shattered", but because he is talking about Hood and Dessembrae, he uses "shattered the bonds".
I love this attention to detail.

3) And the last thing I came up with, was also mentioned before in the thread. It's the bit about Kruppe's grandmother:

Kruppe glanced up, the corners of his eyes crinkling slightly. „Not at all, Mammot. I thought to find mention of my grandmother's name.

Of course it seems amusing and we know that he is looking for something else, but what do we really know about Kruppe?
Where did he get all his powers? Isn't it likely that apart from whatever he got from K'rul represented by the "gift of fire" in his dreams, he had some power of his own before?
And wouldn't it be possible that he inherited it somehow from someone powerful?

And of course...as you who read my ramblings before will have already guessed...I have a crazy theory about it.
It's actually a theory only based on things I picked up on this read and I know, as a re-reader that this isn't something that comes up later on, so I guess I can openly speculate.

Here it goes...Kruppe's grand mother is...wait for it...the Queen of Dreams!
Why do I think that. Obviously his powers are dream-related and who would be a better dream-giving ancestor than the Queen of Dreams.
In contrast to this, Kruppe is able to keep the new gods out of his dreams. Would he be able to inherit such a power from the Queen, when she isn't able to break it herself?
Second speculative hint was that one of my lesser theories for the whole series is that it does matter who curses how.
"Hood's balls" or "Hood's breath" seem common enough, but some characters are very specific in their curses and Kruppe is the only one in GotM, who, most of the time, curses with "Queen of Dreams" references.
Coincidental crazy talk of a lunatic you might say? I would wholeheartedly agree, if I wouldn't have just made a point about SE's attention to detail in 2).

4) For friends of my usual conspiracy of 5, there was next to nothing in this Chapter.
Of course, the 5 dragons are mentioned again, but apart from that nothing much is going on.
Eventhough one Hound after another appears and escorts QB to ST, in the end there are only 4 of them escorting him.
The only other five in the chapter are some highly conspiratorial looking "5 minutes" Kalam has to wait in the Phoeniy Inn...yeah...you get the picture.

So, don't play with Shadow Hounds, ask your priest, if he's a shapeshifter and casually go through your grannies jewelry...maybe you'll find a chain there! Maybe even a K'Chain Che'Malle? I'm loosing my chain of thought here...so, see you next chapter.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

@Mpauli I thought this was going to be a brief entry :)

I like your Kruppe speculation re Queen of Dreams. It never occurred to me and I haven't really been looking for those sorts of references - I'll have to keep an eye open for when we next meet Kruppe.

(view spoiler)[Re Dessembrae - I've since become more convinced that this is specifically Dassem and not just a title (hide spoiler)]

[Mpauli]

David Sven wrote: "@Mpauli I thought this was going to be a brief entry :)

Yep, but then the whole Kruppe theory went totally Kruppe on it's own...

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Kruppe and brevity don't really mix :)

[Lori]

Mpauli wrote:
Yep, but then the whole Kruppe theory went totally Kruppe on it's own..."

But did you indulge in some pastries while you wrote that?

Loving the idea of Krupp's grandmother, wow, you certainly are insightful. Kruppe is such a mystery. I think Kruppe was pretty much the same before Krull, but now has the additional knowledge of the ancient past to help focus on what is going on in the present.

[Mpauli]

Lori (Hellian) wrote: But did you indulge in some pastries while you wrote that?

I wish I had, then I could blame the sugar rush.^^

Lori (Hellian) wrote:I think Kruppe was pretty much the same before Krull, but now has the additional knowledge of the ancient past to help focus on what is going on in the present.

I'm toying with the idea that the fire is some kind of promethean gift, but in this story the fire is given freely by K'rul.
It fits to the overall image of rebirth in the book, maybe as a sign for the rekindling of the Elder god's dealings with the humans.

[Silvio]

Mpauli wrote: "As I didn't have so much time to read today, it comes in handy that Chapter 12 was really short.
And although it had a lot of interesting and confusing scenes, there was little foreshadowing and if..."

I've been wondering about Kruppe's grandmother ever since this chapter, and I like that theory! Disappointing to know Erikson won't settle it for us, though.

The Crippled God gets chained, and Dessembrae shatters his bonds. Nice. So many characters are chained and crippled. The Crippled God is just the extreme case.

[Mpauli]

Silvio wrote:I've been wondering about Kruppe's grandmother ever since this chapter, and I like that theory! Disappointing to know Erikson won't settle it for us, though.

Maybe it is answered. With SE you'll never know. I pick up on so many things on this re-read, that it is likely that I'm going to get an answer, when I continue and have my theories in mind.
Most of the time SE gives the important part of the information early, when you can't use it and at the moment where it would been helpful, you've already forgotten it.

Maybe there is a scene with the Queen of Dreams or Kruppe later on that gives more hints, but I just didn't get it on the first read and can't make a connection yet.
That's the beauty of re-reading it.

And as long as I'm not told otherwise by the text, I'm sticking to what I would like it to be.^^

[Dara]

Good chapter. The stuff with Quick Ben was really interesting and they definitely know the truth about Sorry.

Question: Can someone explain the difference between a god and an ascendant? Or am I not supposed to know that yet? It's confusing me.

Guess/observation about the Eel: (view spoiler)[I think it's Kruppe. I think there was an observation by someone in a previous chapter where he was called slippery and that set off bells. (hide spoiler)]

[Mpauli]

As with everything Erikson, there is no simple answer, but I try to make some very general non-spoilery comments, that might be helpful:

Every god is somehow ascended, but not every ascendant is a god.
That might be the most important distincion.

Being a god has something to do with being worshipped, but there will be tons of examples on that as you move on.

Becoming an ascendant does not seem to follow a straight set of rules. It's not like do a, b and c and then you are an ascendant.
Ascendancy comes in many ways and flavors. Again, this is something, where you are going to see more examples, when you move on.

Sorry on being that vague, but puzzling and wondering about these things is one of the fun things about this series.

[Dara]

Hmm, I see. But there is a distinction?

[Pietro]

The difference between god and ascendant is... uncertain, at best.
During the series a number of clues are given that help defining godhood a bit, but I'm afraid to give you spoilers.

Let's just say that a god is an entity that is worshipped, while an ascendant is and entity whose power has increased (ascended) in a way or another.

Why, such foul souls to call poor Kruppe slippery, for isn't frankness magnanimous Kruppe's most treasured relative, and connivance his most hated (indeed, loathed) foe?

[Pietro]

Dara wrote: "Hmm, I see. But there is a distinction?"

yes, there is a distinction... but slowly coming to understand it is a big part of the fun:) so, I'd feel really bad to just (attempt to) explain it outright.

[Mpauli]

Dara wrote: "Hmm, I see. But there is a distinction?"

Yes, there is. There is mortals. Then some mortals become more powerful and ascend. And then you have gods, who are at least ascendants + X.
And X can be more than one component and being worshipped is always a part of X.
This does not has to happen in multiple steps. A powerful mortal, who is worshipped can technically become a god and ascendant in one step.

On the other hand, there are also gods, that weren't mortals, but were spirits. You're going to see those examples as well, but let's not make it more complex for now, then it has to be at this point.^^

[Dara]

Okay, thanks guys!

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

If you are a mortal you follow these rules;

If you meet an ascendant, be wary, they are hard to kill
If you meet a god, either worship or treat with complete disdain.

Some of my favourite quotes in this series happen between self important gods and disrespectful mortals.