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Historia von D. Johann Fausten
Historia D. Faustus - Faust 2013
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Discussion - Week One - Historia D. Johann Faustus - Part I & II
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I feel that Faust is ultimately manipulated by Mephistopheles but he makes many choices that enable that manipulation. He feels some trepidation about his choices, he sometimes feels trapped, but he continues to choose short-term gratification. The text makes clear that if Faust had turned to God and truly wanted to change, he would have been forgiven.So I feel that Faust is seduced by Mephistopheles but he is a willing victim.
Mod
He certainly develops buyer's remorse as time passes.
The first two chapters show Faust as a youth who had opportunity, advantage, and potential, but turned away from God, first through gluttony and lust, but later through conjuring and sorcery. By the time he casts his spell to summon the devil, he's pretty far from his original training in theology.
Do you think, after he signed the contract with his blood, that he could have turned back to God? I got the idea that the writer was suggesting that the blood contract was inviolable.
I thought that the blood contract was inviolable and that Faust was stuck with a decision that he made when he was young and foolish.
Mod
Yes, I think Mephistopheles says that too.
Given his mere 24 years of power, Faust is forced to contemplate the meaning of "eternity". Clear message to the reader is, "Do you want to suffer for all eternity for your sins, in exchange for the short-lived pleasures of the flesh? Turn not from God!!" etc...
The author specifically says that had Faust truly repented, it would have worked and he could have saved his soul, doesn't he? (Maybe that's in parts 3 & 4...I think it's in part 2 though.) I think one of his points here is that Faust's damnation is consistently on his head - it can't be ascribed to a moment of youthful weakness. Which is good news for me, because when I was like eleven I was convinced that I could sell my soul to the devil in exchange for making this one kid I didn't like barf.
Mod
Faust invited the devil to the party, so it's definitely on him.
I hope the kid did some atomic level barfing, given the fact you'll be spending eternity in hell. BTW, you should have also asked for a new bike or something...
Alex wrote: "The author specifically says that had Faust truly repented, it would have worked and he could have saved his soul, doesn't he? (Maybe that's in parts 3 & 4...I think it's in part 2 though.) I think..."That's what I got, as well. The last passage of X says that if he had repented "Even if he had been compelled to yield up his body here on earth, his soul would nevertheless have been saved." Mephistopheles has told him otherwise, and Faust is also shown the false vision of hell to further prevent his repentance. Apparently the devil is not a very reliable source of information.
Mod
I'll say! though he is pretty good at procurement and wish-fulfillment.
Jim wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Apparently the devil is not a very reliable source of information..."I'll say! though he is pretty good at procurement and wish-fulfillment."
He's the original internet!
Whitney wrote: "Jim wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Apparently the devil is not a very reliable source of information..."I'll say! though he is pretty good at procurement and wish-fulfillment."
He's the original internet!"
Gee, could you conceivably be suggesting that the internet is not "a reliable source of information?" :) Now, I feel that the deal I signed with Google to forfeit my immortal privacy in exchange for gmail is contractually null and void, and honestly, I think that Faust is entitled to legal remedy on the same grounds, and bears no culpability whatever for entering into an agreement under the influence of mind control on the part of numinous powers with terabytes of server backup against which he manifestly had no defense, and proceeding on the basis of deliberate and egregious misrepresentations about the consequences of exercising the provisions of an escape codicil. Anyway, can we all say, "no level playing field?" I maintain that Faust was screwed over by an effectively omnipotent malevolent corporatist Adversary, and bears zero responsibility for the outcome, either way.
Mod
On an unrelated note, I hadn't realized that Faustus was a work of the Reformation (which makes sense given the time and place it was published) until the scene showing the gluttony of the Pope and Cardinals in The Vatican. I'm not much of a religious scholar, are there any other things that people have noticed that might be considered Protestant propaganda?
Mod
There's the scene with the Turkish Emperor and his harem, which I'm sure was looked at as the decadent Orient by the Protestants.
Though I couldn't find confirmation on the internet (nor, indeed, any textual copy whatever that I could search), my impression is that Goethe's work, at least, occupied a place on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. But that may only have been Werther, because of the suicide angle.
Mod
It's interesting to note that the Faust story became popular so fast. Originally penned in Latin, I wonder if the descriptions of the Pope and the Emperor might have been popular as support for protestant views, i.e. "see how wretched those idolators are!" And also, the description of flying over the earth and seeing what lies under and over the heavens would have had great entertainment value.
I haven't read parts 3&4 yet, so maybe its mass appeal will become clearer. Marlowe must have read it within a decade or so of its appearance in German, although international spy that he was, he may also have seen it in Latin. TBD...
Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Gee, could you conceivably be suggesting that the internet is not "a reliable source of information?" :) Now, I feel that the deal I signed with Google to forfeit my immortal privacy...I knew that Advil was the wrong color.
Alex wrote: "The author specifically says that had Faust truly repented, it would have worked and he could have saved his soul, doesn't he? (Maybe that's in parts 3 & 4...I think it's in part 2 tho..."It makes sense that the hellish spirits would lie to him, even to prevent him from contemplating the possibility of repentance. But there is also a feeling of what is done is done and there is no going back - the comparison in part XI with Cain and Judas, in my opinion, hints at the futility of repentance.
Of course, we have no chance of seeing the other side, and their take on things. To make matters worse, the evildoers are pretty sneaky, as when Meph. refuses, at the end of part XI, to answer any more of Faust's questions about Hell and God's Grace, because he was not obligated to answer his questions about it.
This is fun reading but it certainly has the taint of the pedagogical about it. Loved the tour of the heavens and he'll. Found it funny that when near the end of part 2 that the doctor asking Faust about God and consequences and sorcery he kind of avoids the question, perhaps a "hot button" topic for Faust.In terms of wether or not Faust could regain acceptance into God's good graces, I think it is possible even for Faust. Mephistopheles I think does a good job though of both convincing him it isn't though and sowing seeds of despair and guilt to such a degree that Faust wouldn't consider doing the penance required. Simply put, his self-doubt is as much the cause as his lust for power and knowledge. And self-doubt causes one to give control away which can easily lead to a feeling of futility.
Also, nice to see the historical context of the Reformation and the comments.
Mod
Yes Simone, I think you and Matthew are both correct to note Mephistopheles' questionable reliability when it comes to Faust's questions about how and if he can back out of his bargain and return to God. Surely there's a loophole somewhere in the document, blood signature or not.
And I agree with you Matthew about Faust's self-doubt and probable lack of fortitude to do the work of repentance. It's always easier to surrender than fight.
I think it's good to remember that the Church has always opposed astrology because it subverts our ability to choose freely if we think something is written in the stars. In addition, of course, if something is pre-ordained, the Church believes it would be so by God's will not the stars. And it is hubris to seek to know what God knows.All of which Faustus already knows-so he has made some decision in studying astrology. Also, he must know that the devil is not trustworthy.
Jim wrote: "Ellie wrote: "I feel that Faust is ultimately manipulated by Mephistopheles but he makes many choices that enable that manipulation. He feels some trepidation about his choices, he sometimes feels ..."The Catholic Church stance (as I understand it) is that no contract is more powerful than the will of God & that anyone can be forgiven at any time so long as s/he repents & sincerely wants grace.
Mod
One thing I've been wondering about is how this Faust story might relate to the protestant movement instigated by Martin Luther. I don't know enough about that history to comment on that (is there a theologus in the house?), but my instinct tells me that parts of this story might differ from Catholic theology. This chapbook, then, serves as a way to distance people in Germany from the Roman Church. The scene describing the decadence of the Pope would likely serve that kind of propaganda purpose. Also, the fact that Faust is told that grace/redemption is not possible in his case, would also be counter to Catholic theology. Anyone have any thoughts in that direction?
I do actually have some thoughts although no thelogian myself, just a "recovering catholic". The writer seems to equate Faustus and the Church as both just as damned and not worthy of being saved. Maybe this author is questioning the idea of repentance being possible, in particular for those who otherwise have a "wicked" life but then recant on their death bed to get back in the black, so to speak. The whole scheme itself may have felt like its own loophole for evil and vice-filled Catholics, (with particular emphasis on Rome) to those within the Reformation.
A disclaimer from the anonymous author:
Part I – After a quick description of Faustus’ childhood and upbringing, we find out that he dabbles in the dark arts and conjures a spirit from Hell. Faust demand to know the secrets of the underworld and after some back and forth negotiations, they come to terms and Faust signs the deal with his own blood. Settled in his new life as a future minion of Lucifer, Faust finds himself feeling a bit randy and contemplating matrimony. Mephistopheles explains how matrimony is the realm of God, and so is not possible for Faust. Unhappy with this fact, Faust threatens to marry anyway, which brings a resounding “nyet” from Satan himself. A compromise is reached when Mephistopheles promises to bring Faust the women of his choosing when his sexual “spirit” rises.
Part II – With the help of Mephistopheles, Faust becomes an expert astrologer. Later, he asks for a tour of Hell, and the devil Beelzebub grants his wish. Later that year, Faust takes a 7-day cruise of the heavens and espies lands far and wide from his carriage in the sky. Still with itchy feet, Faust has his Spirit render him invisible and he pops in on the Pope, unannounced, and gorges himself in good Roman fashion. Later that night, he popped over to Constantinople to have a little sport with the Emperor, and a late-night cavort with his harem. Home again, Faust talks shop with a fellow astrologus.
This 16th-century narrative style is abrupt at times, but hopefully the plot, such as it is, comes through. What are your initial reactions to the legend? Who is in control, Faust or Mephistopheles? Do you have a picture of “the heavens”?