The Sword and Laser discussion
This topic is about
Old Man's War
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OWM: Would you join up? (only spoilers for the very beginning, please))
I'm broadly opposed to war but under my poorly thought through communitarian ethical system I am in favour of compulsory military service, so I'd probably see it as a fair trade in order to put off death and go into space.Luckily, as a heavy smoker I might not live to 75 and will therefore get out of having to make the choice.
I'm still four decades away from John Perry's age, so I'm probably lacking the proper perspective. But I'd strongly consider it. I'm a student of history and generally passionate about futurism, so I'm pretty eager to see what cool stuff we'll invent and discover in the far future, and to see the long-term repercussions of the historic events of my lifetime.
I'm opposed to war but I am all for space exploration so I don't know if I would join up. I think I probably would just to do one last new thing before I died.
I'd probably do it. I also think something like this could be a reality in our lifetimes. Scientists have already figured out how to reverse aging in rats so its only a matter of time before it moves on to humans. That obviously will have massive political and societal implications that will have to be sorted through. Will it be a strict capitalism system where those who can afford get it or will there be restrictions?
I'd do it. I came very close to signing up for the Army but opted, instead, to go to collage. I would do it for the adventure and experiences.
I'd definitely be willing to join up at that age. The chance at living longer would be worth it...I think. Uh oh, doubts?
I think I would be tempted to sign up as well. I already spent 5 years in the Navy, so the military life would come back to me pretty quick.I think this is an interesting concept for fighting wars. Take the old instead of the young, who have their whole lives ahead of them. Most of these recruits would be like Perry with little ties to home, unlike your typical young soldier.
I think I'd find it impossible to give someone else the authority to tell me when to use deadly force. Pity, because with my scrawny frame and mediocre eyesight, there's no way I'm qualifying for civilian space travel.
I would join without a question. I was surprised when I asked myself this question while I was reading it the first time. I'm not really into war or whatever, but the concept of joining up after I've already lived my life and I could basically start all over again *in space*? Heck yeah! And I want a Brain PAL RIGHT NOW!Love this book. :)
I don't know where you are but Perry and his new friends talk about this and about why they joined a bit later on the ship. Remember, in the OMW world too, people live to about 90 and not much more. So Perry's looking at perhaps 15 more years and is already seeing a lot of the effects of age. I'd join for a couple of reasons... first, because outer space. Second, because youth or something like it (from the perspective of not knowing precisely what happens). Third, because I wouldn't have moral qualms about defending humanity. Most terrestrial war is silly, pointless and evil. Even things like WW2 which is the easiest recent war to justify from the Allied perspective was started by the Axis powers for venal, evil reasons.
I think it would depend on my situation at that time. If I'm capable of looking after myself, and I'm confortably retired without worries about paying my bills, I'd be happy to spend the last few years I may have left going to the library and knocking out as many books as I can.If I've become a burden on my family at that point, sign me up for space. Rather do that then end up in whatever kind of nursing home may still be attempting to run a business at that point.
The agreement that the recruits sign is extremely unspecific regarding what the soldiers will actually be doing. Sign paragraph two and you could find yourself subjugating rebel planets and paragraph four could see you being surgically altered to the point where you couldn't stop yourself from deployments against civilian populations.I doubt that's where the story is going (most of Scalzi's stuff I've read in the past in lighter tone than that), but that document would give me pause, even if I were to be made young and healthy again.
I'm torn in two ways. Now that I'm starting to get older (40+, damn half my life pretty much gone...) I certainly understand the appeal of getting a new lease on life. Also the opportunity to fulfill my GI Joe fantasies appeals. And as you get older friends and family drift away, if not unfortunately pass on. So there really isn't much holding me down and stopping me from seeking a new adventure.However, would I automatically become a hard core killer? Would I set aside my reluctance to kill? My fear of death even if it's part of a "second chance on life"? Would I let go of my issues with authority (never a good attribute in a grunt no matter what the venue).
In the book none of the recruits seem to have any such qualms. Sure testing and profiles can help cut down on such issues, but I think realistically such doubts can't just be brushed away (I know it's just a book, but you asked for it...)
And how you perceive the world also changes as you age (remember those endless summers of your youth? Nowadays three months can pass by without me barely noticing because I'm wrapped up in day to day issues). So would I be tired of life?
After a bit of reflection, I would say no to the opportunity. I think by that time I would be "done with this mortal coil". But of course that could change with time.
Without spoilers, I'm hitting the halfway point, and some of the recruits are, indeed, questioning the morality of their various actions. I'm sure that topic will be dealt with a lot in later threads.
I think if I was given the option as they were in the book and with the basic information they had, then I would likely sign up. I am not a big fan of war, but if it were for defending the human race and then getting off this rock to see various things.Even with all the information I have from reading the book all the way through, I still think I would do it, but I think I would be more hesitant. But, who knows, maybe once I get closer to the 75 mark, I might be more interested in going out quick versus slowing down and fall apart of old age.
Peter wrote: "However, would I automatically become a hard core killer? Would I set aside my reluctance to kill? My fear of death even if it's part of a "second chance on life"? Would I let go of my issues with authority (never a good attribute in a grunt no matter what the venue). "
Remember, this is voluntary. When Perry enlists there's a brief menton that someone else who was eligible that day called to say she wasn't going to do it.
I imagine that after signing up at 65 and then deciding to enlist at 75 you've worked through issues such as the ones you raised and either are cool with going or aren't.
Really, they aren't looking for stone cold killers. They talk about why they use older people later in the book...
P. Aaron wrote: "I am not a big fan of war, but if it were for defending the human race and then getting off this rock to see various things."This is what the recruits are actually signing up for:
I understand that by volunteering to join the Colonial Defense Forces, I agree to bear arms and to use them against the enemies of the Colonial Union, which may include other human forces. I may not during the term of my service refuse to bear and use arms as ordered or cite religious or moral objections to such actions in order to avoid combat service.I'm not sure how you equate that to defending the human race.
Those terms could be equally used to enlist someone into a war of aggression against a peaceful human population; particularly given that the Earth population that they're drawing recruits from has no knowledge of what's actually happening because of the Quarantine Laws.
Knowing that military service is the only way to see the rest of the galaxy? Yes, in a second.would I kill without question for the ability. Again, yes.
Would I have to deal with the emotional consequences? Certainly yes.
But aren't those things what anyone signs up for when the join the military? Even a citizen soldier relinquishes his Rights while under fire.
I think I would join. Especially is I was in John Perry's position. I've lived my life, my wife is gone, and I will die from old age eventually. War is horrific, but at least it would give you and experience and a chance at a "second life." You can either stay on earth and live out the rest of your days and die never knowing what the CDF is all about, or you can possibly survive the war, get an extended life, and experience life in space.
My incredibly smart grandmother, who now at 83 years old sadly has Alzheimer's, would often say to me when I was helping her up the steps or something, "never get old."And while I'm only 32 now (so trying to imagine myself at 75 is a bit difficult), I think I would take her advice and sign up. Regardless of the strings attached, I'd want to prolong my life as long as I could. And seeing space would just be a bonus. The shooting other sentient species might be a little less fun.
P. Aaron wrote: "Without spoilers, I'm hitting the halfway point, and some of the recruits are, indeed, questioning the morality of their various actions. I'm sure that topic will be dealt with a lot in later threads."Yes, I want to keep this thread based only on what we know at the beginning of the book, because that is all the information you would have to base the decision on were such a thing to exist.
It's interesting how many people say they would be tempted to join, especially the number of those who, like me, would never consider ordinary service. The idea that I would be forced to fight and kill even in situations where this goes against my core values is a horrible one, and I know that I would have a hard time agreeing to that paragraph in the contract, especially for an organisation so secretive. And yet that very thing, the secretiveness, is one of the lures, since how else could you find out about what is going on up there? You go up and you discover. And you experience. All good sense tells me it would be ridiculous to sign, and yet I still think I would.
I wonder if there are any who are the opposite, people who have done military service, or would if they could, who would not sign up in the circumstances described in this book.
Also, do you think it is the strength of the writing that makes the idea so appealing? I certainly find it very easy to empathise with the characters, so perhaps, seeing it through their eyes, it is easier to imagine choosing as they did. Or do you think the lure of adventures in space is so strong that even if this was a real thing you heard on the news, announced by a most hated official even, you would still think 'sign me up'?
Erik wrote: "My incredibly smart grandmother, who now at 83 years old sadly has Alzheimer's, would often say to me when I was helping her up the steps or something, "never get old."And while I'm only 32 now (..."
Yep. I think of my grandmother . . . . her body lived to be 94 but her mind pretty much ended in her mid 80's. Knowing that could happen to me I would definitely sign up.
Mod
Personally I'm not sure I'd be capable of fighting in a war, but there is certainly a lot of appeal to extending one's life/going off-world.
I just turned 30 so it's hard to imagine what I'd feel in 45 years, but I watched my Grandfather's body break down the last few years, and I saw how frustrated/angry it made him.
The main reason, or should I say reasons, I would join would be for the extra life and the possibility of seeing technology that is not allowed on earth.The most interesting section of the book I have read so far is where Harry Wilson was trying to use his scientific knowledge to figure out how the beanstalk worked and ultimately determined that it is an impossibility without help from outside sources.
I would love to see that first hand!
However, having to go to war does not interest me in the slightest. That is the one major flaw I have seen so far
To see the galaxy, I would join in a second.
It is not war or combat that would be the moral issue I have done that in my life. I did not want it and would not want to do it again but for the right cause it is morally justifiable. I think the later metaphysical issues would be my biggest issue.
A chance to go off-world? I'd enlist.
From the point of view of the main character, I'd totally do it. He's lost your spouse and he is old and tired of life. I'd never join the military, but getting to go to space and maybe have a new lease on life? Sign me up. If I was in his shoes I'd do it because if it turns out to be some horrible situation, you just know that there will be a battle soon enough and you can step in front of a grenade or something and end it for real. Meantime, see what the experience is like. It might be amazing and if not..well, I doubt they'll be able to prevent you from getting blown up. They might even be counting on it if they'll sign up just anyone.
I already served once and i didnt get nearly this great a reward. why the heck not?
i'd do it for the food! :D and, as a sort of reparsing of the many good reasons given by posters above (space travel, losing family, etc.) i guess i'd want to go for one last chance at the mind-blowing wonder and the promise of adventure not experienced since childhood.
Would I join. Probably. However, more interesting to me is the political manipulation that is being done to induce people to join. Allowing lower developed, poorer and less educated parts of the world a chance to migrate freely, while at the same time denying this to more developed, richer and well educated parts of the world, hints at a very manipulative and dictatorial system that exists in the colonies. Earth is definitely being manipulated to profit others.
The irony of the situation is that the people most scared of dying are those that sign up to fight a war. I know Scalzi lists other reasons people might enlist, but when it boils down to it, they've lived a long life and they want more to live. By signing up, they will live life by fighting for humanity or they'll have their life ended as would have happened anyway.For that reason, I couldn't say whether I'd sign up because I'm not done living my life. Perhaps, at that age, I would feel complete and ready to pass on. Or perhaps I'd feel like I need more time.
I'm 38 now, so I don't have quite the proper perspective yet. At 75 years of age, if in a situation of little to no obligations, or people to miss - a chance at starting life over and possibly extremely long life (immortality?), even with a small percentage chance of survival over first 10 years in service, its still better odds than the alternative.
So I'd say "yes".
At 33, I've had 16 surgeries, almost all on my joints. I've got a genetic disorder that makes my soft tissues prone to problems, and I've had physical therapists that have said that they don't want to see how broken I am when I'm 50, much less 75! So I think it kind of goes without saying that the idea of a new body, one like you get in OMW, is *quite* appealing. That said, I'm not sure I could deal with the moral aspects...and frankly, I've never been good at taking orders. As tempting as a non-broken body is, I don't think I could sign up.
As of right now, and I'm two years away from 40, I don't think I would. If you die you die, there nothing you really do to stop it. Even if you did get the new body you're still getting deployed to whatever conflict zone they need you in, so you could have this brand new body and still die six months later.Of course if I was 75 I may think about it a little.
As nice as it would be to be able to go into space and have access to all of the tech, I don't think I'd be willing to do it. I don't think I'd be able to kill anyone. And I wouldn't want to be handling weapons with my mental problems when I'm having panic attacks. They probably wouldn't even consider me eligible.
I'm more than a little conflicted. I've wanted to go to space my whole life, but I'm also a life-long pacifist. I'm 63. Despite the pacifism, if in 12 years I could get my 25-year-old body back by joining an interstellar military I'd be very tempted, except a couple of other issues.
If I was in good health I might wait 6 years until my wife qualified, assuming she also wanted to sign up. I still kinda like her after 34 years.
Then there is our daughter, who has health issues that may keep her from ever being independent.
It would be a tough decision...
I wouldn't do it. This man may have lost his wife, but, he has a son. A son who will NEVER know the fate of his father. Maybe he has other children. Maybe he has grand kids, too. I think he has an obligation to his living family that he is failing at. I could not leave that kind of question mark about my life to my kids. Plus, they seem to have little to no clue what this war is about, not really. They've never talked to a soldier or a civilian involved. They have no way of knowing if the military are the protectors of Earth or the aggressors against other planets.
Not knowing what they want to do to you medically/physically would also be a no go for me, I keep imagining being turned into a Borg drone.
You never get to go home, you'll live out the rest of your days only they know where, because they're not telling you. Perhaps in some disease riddled slum.
There's also no guarantee that you'll SEE space, you'll certainly go to space. But maybe they put you on some ship and you spend your space time being operated on and then they drop you on some planet where you become ground troops.
As much as I would love to see space, I would not take the chance of becoming a pawn in an unjust war.
Melissa wrote: "I wouldn't do it. This man may have lost his wife, but, he has a son. A son who will NEVER know the fate of his father. Maybe he has other children. Maybe he has grand kids, too. I think he has an ..."This make a lot of sense...but I still think I couldn't resist the temptation to live longer and have the possibility of seeing something new and amazing, which is ultimately quite selfish on my part.
Melissa wrote: "I wouldn't do it. This man may have lost his wife, but, he has a son. A son who will NEVER know the fate of his father. Maybe he has other children. Maybe he has grand kids, too. I think he has an ..."This too. I have two kids. I said earlier I'd probably sign up. Being away from my kids and whatever grandkids they may produce might well stop me which is why I had the probably qualifier.
On the other hand, it's possible you'd do it FOR your kids. I've known a lot of people talk about how they do not want to be a burden to their families, and if something, alzheimer's, for example, began causing problems, perhaps signing up would be a way to spare your family a lot of grief.
I would definitely join up. I would much rather die fighting in good health, while seeing all these amazing things out in the universe than waste away in the same place I had lived my entire life. I'm curious what life is like on earth after all these people leave. What is life like for the people that don't join? Do people look down on those that don't join? Are the elderly that remain worse off because they are treated with disdain for not supporting their species, like a draft dodger or something?
If it was my only choice to see other stars close up and with the chance to settle on a new world afterwards? Yes, I'd definitely sign up, especially if my theoretical grandchildren were already adults.
No way. I couldn't kill a fly. Literally. Plus, I really hope to have and spend time with grandchildren someday.
And just riding in an elevator gives me vertigo, so going up that beanstalk...not a chance.
Armed only with the knowledge that I would be able to travel in space and see incredible things while also fighting for freedom, the age-old propaganda slogan, I wouldn't even think twice. Why not donate my body to the protection of Earth just as one would donate their body to those in need of transplants.
I'd do it now. Earth sucks.
I'd be very conflicted about this. On the one hand, I've lived my life dreaming about going into space, and the prospect of living longer in a healthy body is appealing as well.On the other hand, I'd be leaving my kids, and by that point, their kids forever, and I also have a hard time listening to authority figures since I usually think I'm smarter than they are so military life might not be a good fit.
In the end I probably wouldn't go if for no other reason than I'd procrastinate too long.
Frankly speaking, I have no idea what I would do. At this point in life, I am petrified of closed spaces and dying from lack of air sounds horrific to me. That being said, my opinion on the world will most likely change by the time I'm 75. If I had nothing else left to live for, I'd probably do it.
As yet, no details of the mysterious life-extending treatments which have been hinted at have been revealed, and so I'm just as in the dark as the main character...and if I'm honest, that curiousity could well be one reason I might be tempted to sign up were such a thing around today. Also, the idea of living a full life and then, right when life is nearing its end, go off on a new adventure, seeing and experiencing things I would never have had the opportunity to experience otherwise... when I think like that, I think 'sure, sign me up'.
On the other hand, war is war, and never pleasant, and I've never felt the tiniest inclination to join any armies currently in existence for number of reasons, so why should this be any different?
What do you think? Would you sign up or not?