Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Book Discussion & Recommendation
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What would Penile Fantasy be like?
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Ender wrote: "I'd love it if the men took over for a month and picked a couple of books for us to read. :)"If we’re going to give the boys a crack at choosing, I’d love to put Bellwether by Connie Willis (1996) in the running. It is a shorter novel (right on that invisible borderline with novella), so might make a good pick for February (or as an alt. to another screwball comedy). Bellwether may be hard to find in new bookstores, but should be available in most libraries (for reasons explained in the story) and is available as an e-book.
Unfortunately Bellwether doesn’t have too many explicit sexy times, but there are truckers and cowboys and the scenes with the sheep might even get Bonnie’s attention. This story really does have a little bit of everything: bibliophiles, chaos theory, corporate sensitivity training, duct tape and let’s not forget the scenes with the sheep. If that doesn’t say VF, I don’t know what does.
There you have it, my Valentine’s gift to the Vaginal Fantasy Book Club this year is Bellwether by Connie Willis – read it and sheep.
Mathew wrote: "So what would constitute Penile Fantasy?"I believe it is called "pornography"...
Mike wrote: "Mathew wrote: "So what would constitute Penile Fantasy?"I believe it is called "pornography"..."
You are aware that woman watch pornography too right?
And no its not called pornography, the entire point is that there may well be a difference between a type of romance written for woman and a type written for men.
Mary wrote: "Well most VaginalFantasy books have a strong yet venerable female lead the man that would fit this would be a geek in my head LMBO I know this isn't completely right but this is what my female min...""Venerable", like old and wise? Don't you mean "vulnerable"? I personally like a woman who's strong but not emotionally bulletproof.
@mathew thank you! It's so easy to be dismissive of the whole point of this thread. Come on people, a real question is being asked here. Can we not jump to stereotypes for one second?
Katie wrote: "Has anyone mentioned the Wheel of Time series? I really really did not enjoy this series (and I stuck with it for at least five or six books), but from what I remember (years ago) it strikes me as ..."I liked the complexity of the world and the magic system. However, the more I read, the more padding appeared. I agree with my neighbour that it could have used some good editing. However, she informed me that the process was subverted when Jordan married his editor.
I got sick of the fact that, once Nynaeve was established as being a difficult person, she became downright contrary, and was constantly pulling her braid when she got annoyed. Do people actually do stuff like that?.
And there were constant references to "stupid men/women/Aiel/wetlanders - always doing something which the speaker finds annoying and typical. And Rand's increasingly random, yet increasingly frequent outbursts of mad ranting. I don't even remember (or care) if I discovered who Ilyena was.
After several books, with increasing padding and decreasing story progress, I pulled the plug. If I ever look at the series again, I'll probably just look for a summary.
Anna wrote: "@mathew thank you! It's so easy to be dismissive of the whole point of this thread. Come on people, a real question is being asked here. Can we not jump to stereotypes for one second?"If we really want to create a separate genre and call it penile fantasy, we could take what VF is and change the she in he. It would be simply a story from a guy's perspective that would show "his journey and/or the becoming". the protagonist could be anything; from the great hero that saves the world to a simple shop assistant. The story might deal whith serious issues or be a "hack all the monsters" kind of story, the sex scene might be there; yet it wouldn't be indispensable. And the rapists would be the bad guys and not a future love interest!
@kamil what about the whole femme fatale trope? The details and styles might be different but I think there are both men and women who respond to some form of power domination in a love interest and both men and women who don't. An interesting thing to think about though.
Anna wrote: "@kamil what about the whole femme fatale trope? The details and styles might be different but I think there are both men and women who respond to some form of power domination in a love interest an..."femme fatales are fine, the more the merrier I'd say.
Kamil wrote: "Anna wrote: "@mathew thank you! It's so easy to be dismissive of the whole point of this thread. Come on people, a real question is being asked here. Can we not jump to stereotypes for one second?"..."The more we discuss it, the more I’m seeing PF as a potential sub-genre of VF. With the norms we have in society today it is very difficult to market romance to men (publishing of any kind is a business first and foremost). There is a well-established audience for VF that already includes a large male underground following (no need to reinvent the wheel there). Women tend to purchase more fiction than men, so there may be an advantage to marketing romance stories that women can share with their partners. Given the choice between buying a book you’re going to enjoy on your own and one you can more readily share with the men in your life, I think your entertainment dollar might go toward the latter. With that said, there are very few viable products with the word penis in the title, so we might have to rebrand it as partner fantasy or partner friendly fiction.
I like the term Partner Friendly Fiction or PFF, so I am formally claiming trade mark to the name and offering non-exclusive rights to use Partner Friendly Fiction or PFF to any publisher willing to promote this idea and sub-genre, free of licence or fee. Oh shoot, now I have to get writing a couple dozen PFF novels to help fill the niche.
I am using the Alpha, Beta, ect. definitions from the Beta male thread (msgs. 12 & 15 especially) in this post.
As I’ve said in this and other threads, the strong suit for this form would be the Beta Male POV protagonist, most likely paired with a flawed, but redeemable Alpha Female. Beta / Beta seems to work with two couples in a quadrangle. Beta / Beta could also work as a triangle, with an Alpha or Gamma rival. But, without added complication, I think the Beta / Beta story doesn’t get off the ground (I’d love to go to dinner with this couple, but I don’t want to read about them). Alpha / Alpha could be fun too, but as a competitive (possibly forced cooperation) story. This might be the FBI agent and the Canadian Mountie forced to work together to catch a cross border serial killer (the relationship may or may not last, but I think they end up with a genuine emotional bound and mutual respect – think Booth and Bones here).
What Amy said about the default-male idea is not wrong, though I think it needs expanding to make it clear how it pertains to this group.There are two things going on here:
1) Women's sexuality is still considered taboo enough that books in this genre are seen as unserious as literary works by the larger critic/art community, and for the same reason, many women still feel shame to have it known that they read them.
2) Many women have trouble getting published in the "default male" genres. Reading Joanna Russ' book How To Suppress Women's Writing is a good way to understand how and why women's literature is still overwhelmingly written in the "pink ghetto" of romance/mystery/chick-lit. Many women find it difficult to locate books in the "default" genres featuring main characters with whom they can relate, so they grow up reading works from the "pink ghetto", and this also plays a role in why they are more likely to end up writing there. The choice of genre and style writers make is heavily influenced by authors and works that spoke to them on a personal level, which, when you are a woman, is statistically more likely to be true for books written in the "pink ghetto" genres.
I think these factors all contribute, to varying degrees, to the existence and popularity of the types of novels featured here. Paranormal Romance/Fantasy novels are a unique combination of the legacy of Jane Austen's romance novel outlet for women writers and readers seeking main characters with whom they can relate, and the desire both have to write and read stories in the sci-fi/fantasy genres that are traditionally dominated by men.
In this respect, the accuracy of Amy's remark that Penile Fantasy is just "Fantasy" makes more sense, I think.
It might make more sense, but it's certainly not what I would accept as the crux of this thread.
There's some interesting comments about sex in fantasy by Patrick Rothfuss near the end of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52khu_..., which is a discussion about Urban Fantasy. The speakers turn to the notion of sex in books, and how Diana Rowland got yelled at by her fans when she didn't add sex in her urban fantasy books. Patrick Rothfuss, in turn, who doesn't write urban fantasy (but rather, "epic fantasy" or "just fantasy"), got yelled at when he DID add sex in his fantasy books.From my standpoint, this means that "Fantasy" is as stigmatized as "Urban Fantasy" - UF or PNR "needs" sex (Gena Showalter's latest, Last Kiss Goodness, is also getting "bad" Amazon reviews *because* it's PG-13 and "bland") and Fantasy "mustn't" have sex (though, of course, they bring up GRRM as an exception). This differentiates "Fantasy" specifically from "Penile Fantasy" since my base definition of PF would almost *require* sexy times, explicit or not.
There were some further interesting discussions in the first episode of Vaginal Fantasy, I believe, where they remarked that they thought they amped up the sex in the Game of Thrones TV show to attract the female audience. They also had some comments about True Blood and the Sookie Stackhouse series, but I can't remember the correlation they were making.
Morbus wrote: "It might make more sense, but it's certainly not what I would accept as the crux of this thread."Well, I think it is, but perhaps we don't share the same perspective on this.
The question of why there aren't more romance novels written with men taken into consideration is quite to the point I was making. Men are unused to not being considered by, and indeed made the focus of a story. On the other hand, women are very accustomed to not being considered by the plot when they read books from genres outside Romance.
However, the fact that we are not generally considered by authors who write in Fantasy and Sci-Fi genres does not stop us from reading these books all the time. I love Game of Thrones, for instance, but there was not a single female character in that series I felt was written in a voice that spoke to me in the very true, personal way the characters in Paranormal Romance routinely do, because they are written for my particular consideration.
This is all by way of saying that the answer to your question seems pretty straight-forward: a romance novel to which you would relate would probably be written by an author who was trying consciously to write with consideration for a male reader. This does not necessarily mean the author must be male. J.K. Rowling wrote a male protagonist in the Harry Potter series many young men found very relatable. But it would probably be more likely to grab you in a deeply personal way if the author was a man.
There are male writers in the pink ghetto genres. They just don't write for male consideration. I posit that you are just not recognizing the possibility that there are many books written specifically to appeal to male fantasy, including those that have sex scenes (the entire Gor and James Bond series are examples), but for reasons having to do with culture, there simply aren't many authors who have chosen to write in this genre for male consideration. The books would look like... well, whatever is in your head that you'd like to hear told to you as a love story, but with hopefully better grammar than you'd use, otherwise you ought to consider writing one yourself.
Morbus wrote: "There's some interesting comments about sex in fantasy by Patrick Rothfuss near the end of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52khu_..., which is a discussion about Urban Fantasy. The speakers turn t..."Without needing to know the context, I can tell you that the sex was almost certainly thick in True Blood for a female audience, but the entire show itself focuses on a female protagonist, and that's really the main thing that shapes why the sexuality part works at all to create a level of conflict sufficient to push an entire plot arc.
It's a little difficult to explain without getting into the weeds. But really, all stories are interesting because they are centered around conflict for the main character. The conflict has to be very serious -- life-or-death, usually -- and how the main character resolves it defines them entirely. The conflict in romance stories are fundamentally about the very high stakes associated with female sexuality. While there aren't zero stakes associated with male sexuality, of course, it is more difficult to create a story about a man being put in a life-or-death level of conflict over whether it is acceptable for him to feel sexually toward a woman and how he can be pursue those feelings.
Romance stories are not just about a woman overcoming a fear of rejection in order to get the boy. There is always a very real threat to her that is introduced by an outside force or circumstance beyond her control that she must somehow negotiate. Having sexual feelings and acting on them is a risk worthy of an entire character arc.
So, in order to create a similarly compelling "Penile Fantasy", I'd guess that one would have to think up similarly high-risk circumstances a man must overcome in order to express his sexuality. His entire moral character, and ideally his very life must be imperiled if he makes the wrong choice. There must be dire consequences for him and the path he walks should explore his struggle between what he knows is right and what he wants, and in the end, he finds a way to reconcile both in the conflict's resolution.
It's hard for me to think up a story like this off the top of my head, but that's probably because I'm not a dude and I can't really imagine what kind of circumstance would create that level of high-risk emotional conflict that would inhibit a man's sexuality in a believable way. But that's what a male-focused romance story would look like, at least according to the character of the genre.
@Heather: thanks for the excellent followups.When I say "crux of the thread", I don't mean to question "why there aren't more romance novels written with men taken into consideration", but rather what those existent or non-existent novels actually are or would be like. Given that the predominance of fantasy novels do not have romantic or sexy time themes in them and, per Rothfuss, are often frowned upon when they do, generic "fantasy" cannot be the male equivalent of "vaginal fantasy", which does seem to predominantly include romance and sexy times.
There's already been a decent number of suggestions in the thread for what penile fantasy might be, both in the Urban Fantasy realm (The Dresden Files whose author also participated in the YouTube video I linked to regarding sex in urban fantasy [Jon/30], or the Iron Druid series [Stacia/38]) and history (my own suggestion of pulp fiction, "spicy" stories, crime fiction, film noir, and femme fatales [Morbus/40]) as well as "military action pulp" (Mari/22). Your addition of James Bond is another great addition. I'm not familiar with Gor, but BonnieBew/15 states "The Gor series by John Norman came to mind immediately as penile fantasy. That's totally a horrible stereotypical thought on my part - as if men want to read about warriors and slave girls as much as all women want to read Harlequin novels."
Your assertion that females read fantasy/sci-fi regardless of female considerations, and the related notion/implied corollary that men don't read romance (http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...) is exactly the reason why I'm here. I haven't, in fact, read much, if any, romance or erotica and I'm here to figure out why, or what it is, or why I don't. I'm curious, that's all! As such, it might have been folly to try and describe what "penile fantasy" would be, given that I don't really know "vaginal fantasy" (regardless of formal definition - I just don't have the read backlog of experience), but I was encouraged on earlier in the thread. Insert every enlarging foot into ever more diarrhetic mouth. As such, your second post, regarding the "character of the genre", was quite useful. These are things I just don't have the background to know, or the experience to summarize in a succinct way.
To whit: romance novels commonly are life-or-death situations for the female?
I think the crime novel I mentioned in Morbus/40 is a "life or death" situation, to some degree. To summarize Grifter's Game: Joe Marlin steals a briefcase of cocaine, unintentionally. He then meets a woman whom he falls for. He wants the woman. They sexy time. By coincidence, the woman is unhappily married to the man whose cocaine it is. Joe must figure out how to get the girl and get rid of the cocaine. Given the amount of cocaine he stole, he's convinced that he'll be killed should any part of his involvement in the theft be known, and/or be killed if it's ever found out he stole the cocaine dealer's wife.In this particular example, the sexuality of the male never comes into play. I'm not sure penile fantasy could regularly be about male sexuality, given the double-standard of "sluts vs. studs", though there is the notion of cuckolding and humiliation. Removing sexuality, the most important things to a male might be respect and reputation, his life, and power or control. (I'm male, yes, but no psychologist.) In Grifter's Game, Joe doesn't lose his life, but he does lose control of the situation.
Heather wrote: "Morbus wrote: "There's some interesting comments about sex in fantasy by Patrick Rothfuss near the end of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52khu_..., which is a discussion about Urban Fantasy. The ..."This is why I keep coming back to the Beta Male / Alpha female pairing. This combination gives him way more obstacles to overcome and bigger risks to failure; if she is his socio-economic superior all the better.
A combo I’ve been toying with is a small town preacher (he’s also the local sheriff, as the jail cell is in the back of the church) and a bad-girl Hollywood starlet. Post rehab shenanigans land the starlet in our preacher’s jail cell (under her real name not her stage name, giving her a bit of a time out from the limelight) and they are forced together. Initially sparks fly as our straightedge preacher/cop and the flighty actress butt heads, but they come to know and understand each other throughout her incarceration. Once the initial attraction comes to light we have lots of room for hijinks as she pursues him. Her thinking is pretty straightforward (she is the entitled Alpha female after all): I like him; I want him; I’ll have him. He on the other hand is 1) in a position of authority over her, 2) dependant on his reputation in the community for his employment, 3) genuinely concerned about the spiritual effect the affair will have on both of them. The story has a nicely built in big black moment when the press discover where she is and possibly catch them in a compromising position. Her handlers descend, whisking her back to Hollywood. He is put on probation, from both jobs and forbidden to see her again. I’m not sure how the third act resolve will play-out yet. I’m pretty sure she’s been working on a screenplay (that nobody will read because she’s the idiot actress). The return of the screen play plus their faith in each other should bridge that gap eventually.
This story could be told effectively from either character’s POV, but I think there are higher stakes on his part, making it his story, not hers. I put this one on the back burner when I realized it wasn’t her story, but the Beta Male and PF threads have given me new hope for this story.
@Garth that sounds like a great premise for a story
Ooo, I'm entirely fascinated by this question, because I'm finding that a lot of what irritates me or leaves me wanting in romance novels likewise bugs my male friends (who all skew to the liberal, feminist, enlightened, well-read, nerdy type). And even though I'm mostly straight, I really like being in the male POV for erotic scenes or, yes, okay, porn. Except that I end up irritated or left wanting with porn for many of the same reasons that erotica and romance irk me. Anyway, point is, I like male POV even as a woman but I don't like it when it's rapey or domineering or creepy. I only like it when it's a genuinely nice guy...or at least nice during sex. Richard Sharpe is happymaking hotness and he's a badass, but in the sack he's a tender loving teddy bear and riddled with angst.But Richard Sharpe books are hardly romance, so I'm definitely keen to see what's recommended here.
Further, I'm finding that while I thought women would be my main demographic for my own work, it's turning out that geeky guys are some of the most fervent fans of my stuff. So without being spammy about it, I'll share that what men are responding to in my stuff is a) trope-smashing (particularly of gender roles and going beyond the self-rescuing princess to having male characters question how they fit into that societal paradigm with all of the conflicts that really exist), b) steamy scenes from multiple POVs or with emphasis on male POV, and c) multidimensional male characters who are hard to pin down as either alpha or beta depending on the situation...y'know, like real human beings. Hefty side helpings of nerdy references and science seem to help as well, although again, that's skewing to the nerdy audience and may not play as well with non-nerd males.
So while I'm not a guy, there are some anecdotal data points for you.
I think any penile fantasy would have to have pictures. Not saying guys are dumb and can't read the black and white squiggles but visuals are important to male understanding. Where woman would talk an idea to death to understand it, a man is more likely to sit down and draw an image. So, images would have to be important. But does that make it porn?
Miztres wrote: "I think any penile fantasy would have to have pictures. Not saying guys are dumb and can't read the black and white squiggles but visuals are important to male understanding. Where woman would tal..."yes! and the cheepest kind of porn. I'd rather have an accurate description of everything the lovers are expereincing ( the pressure, anxiety, incertaincy, the texture of the sheets, the sweat, the heavy breathing, the foreplay, the way they touch eachother and the way their bodies move in symphony). Images aren't needed (after all I have the most powerfull graphic-creating device; my immagination, upgraded and patched whith every word I learn. After all when we say "vanilla-scented candles and silken ropes" we know what that implies)
Of corse sexy scenes could be all-fade-to-black if the author paid attention to the before and after moments.
Men evolved; we don't club women to pull them into our caves anymore.
Kamil wrote: "femme fatales are fine, the more the merrier I'd say."So you want a femme fatale harem? :p
Totally down with having the fella's pick out some books for the month BUT! Penile Fantasy? I think it should have a better name. Don't get me wrong, I get it - Vaginal = equals to Penile, I guess. But I dunno, I think it should have a slicker name. Like Phallic Fantasy ;)Doesn't it just rrrroooll off of the tongue? :D
I suspect rolling on and off the tongue may be operative words in Penile/Phallic Fantasy...
Morbus wrote: "@Heather: thanks for the excellent followups.[...snip...]
I haven't, in fact, read much, if any, romance or erotica and I'm here to figure out why, or what it is, or why I don't. I'm curious, that's all! [...] Insert every enlarging foot into ever more diarrhetic mouth."
You're quite welcome. I'm afraid we might be talking past each other a little bit here. That's probably my fault. I am making some points here that are pretty deep in the weeds of feminist critique, and I know how feminism can sometimes come across as an indictment to men's ears, but nothing I'm saying is intended to jump on you in any way for your curiosity. I was only meaning to illustrate the complexities of a topic that is interesting to me. I find your interest in it as a man even more interesting (in a good way), precisely because I am a feminist.
Mobus wrote: "To whit: romance novels commonly are life-or-death situations for the female?"
Yes. This is directly related to the "point 1" I mentioned in my first post in this discussion. Sexuality is still fraught with a real sense of risk for women. Some of it is culture, some of it is physical, and some is biological:
On the most basic biological level, sex risks pregnancy. Up until about 50 years ago, there was no reliable birth control and death from childbirth was (and still is, in many places) common, so for most of human history, every time a woman had sex she was, quite literally, risking her life. Then there's caring for the child during and after pregnancy: a large, long-term investment she can't easily avoid without incurring other risks. Abortion has only recently become relatively safe and available to women in developed countries, but for 99.9% of women for 99.9% of human history, it wasn't. Adoption agencies are a fairly recent thing, as well. Thus, regardless of anything else, there is a rational tendency for women to view sex as a higher-risk activity than men do -- because it is, and has been for most of time.
Then there is the physical issue of size and strength difference between men and women on average, and this creates the potential for a whole slew of life-or-death situations. When you consider how often women are brutalized by men who claimed to love them, you can begin to understand why simply being sexually attracted to a man -- especially a tall, dark, handsome sort -- could be reasonably viewed as risky.
You might also then understand the dramatic conflict inherent in a story where the female lead, by virtue of her character, transforms the imposing male love-interest from a potentially violent threat to a devoted, passionate lover. She has risked her life for her sexual desires, and that's what makes the pursuit of the relationship a sufficient conflict to power a whole story, and the resolution of "happily ever after" so appealing. Whether that extremely common romance-novel plot arc is a healthy fantasy is a matter of debate, but you can at least understand why it is so common.
Then there are the myriad cultural risks associated with female sexuality that women must negotiate. It really wasn't that long ago that a woman could lose everything -- home, money, children, reputation, even her literal life -- because she made the "wrong" sexual choice. To put things in perspective, I'm in my mid-thirties and my mother can remember a time when she couldn't legally have a bank account in her own name without my father. The U.S. is a bit less punitive than it was, but we're still pretty hard on women for sexual choices that we congratulate in men.
In Paranormal Romance novels, it's common for cultural risk to be re-cast as a supernatural force that will punish her for "bad" choices. For instance, in Succubus Blues (which I enjoyed), the protagonist makes a "bad" sexual choice, and is then cursed to never be able to have sex with another good man again without destroying him. Many women can relate to the supernatural metaphor, having been similarly "cursed" because they made the culturally unacceptable sexual choice to have sex outside of their marriage. The character in that novel literally risked her immortal soul and lives with an eternity of damnation because she slept with one guy this one time. That women can relate to that story tells you a lot about how risky female sexuality remains when it is pitted against cultural mores and expectations.
So I hope that answers your question, and maybe now you can understand why what may seem to be such a simple thing -- love, hot sex, and a happy life -- is sufficiently thrilling and complex a story that even an ongoing zombie apocalypse becomes a mere backdrop for that narrative.
Cheers!
A very eye-opening look at the female side of sex there. Thanks. For me it helps to explain the appeal of the romance genre. Where the male sees high risk as some daring action based adventure, woman society sees sex as high risk for lots of reasons described. Thanks again.
Ender wrote: "Kamil wrote: "femme fatales are fine, the more the merrier I'd say."So you want a femme fatale harem? :p"
Not in one book of course, harmes and poligamy are bad news, but instead of the clueless heroine we could get a femme fatale once in a while
@Heather don't take the following words as a diminishment and understatemant of the risks women take. I aggreed whith everything concerning the female sexuality, yet you think male sexuality is all sugar-and rainbow? Pregnancy scares both male and female, it brings questions " am I prepared for what may happen?", " my life will change".
And guys can be brutally raped by women too, read some newspapers.
But let's go back to safe sex. There is still the performance pressure, and the fast eiaculation. Ok, let's immagine the guy made it thgrough... it's all good yet his partner asks " is it in?" And his confidence was overkilled. Don't tell me there is nothing in male's sexuality that may be life-threatening (in the extreme case the author could put a succubus in the story).
And quoting this:
"In Paranormal Romance novels, it's common for cultural risk to be re-cast as a supernatural force that will punish her for "bad" choices. For instance, in Succubus Blues (which I enjoyed), the protagonist makes a "bad" sexual choice, and is then cursed to never be able to have sex with another good man again without destroying him"
Basically Georgie send to hell bad guys that accepted to have sex whith her, giving them no chance to redeem themselves. Oh the irony! they get punished by a supernatural force for a "bad choice" whithout giving them a chance to redeem themselves.
When I read a book, play a plot drivven game or watch a movie, I do it to walk into someone else's shoes to confront what I believe is right (and acceptable) whith another being's POV.
And, as many of you have said, romance books (fantasy or not) are great sources of confrontation. Penile Fantsy could be seen as general fantasy, yet general fantasy doesn't go deeply into the male "Id", thus that would be a very discriminating categorisation. PF shouldn be seen as a hybrid-subgenre.
Something I learnt today, men have vaginas too (called prostatic utricle or vagina masculina). Technically a developmental remnant but still means vaginal fantasy applies to men too :P
What would Penile Fantasy be like??? ack .. tough question.I don't know of many books where the plot or actions revolve around male sexual action -- most of the time this is a side issue (banging a princess here and there while really focusing on killing a dragon or whatnot).
But I'd say the same thing about many of the VF books we've read. I'm a bit behind on the current VF books, but the relationships and the sexy times are not the central story .. usually the protagonist is involved with much larger issues along with a bit of fun in the sack etc.
So along the same lines I'd say mid section of Jaqueline Carey - Kushiel's Scion etc, where the main character is a dude are pretty Penile Fantasy-ish
I dono. I'm thinking this is a false choice. Strait men like vaginas so if there is any action on that front -- regardless of the power dynamic (maybe the woman is in charge etc)-- we're thinking it's really ALL Penile Fantasy -- at least if there is a penis involved :)
So it's all good. VF is really PF a lot of the time if there is a dude reading and enjoying it.
-z
I just finished Old Man's War and I seriously think this would be a perfect contender for the Penile Fantasy genre. Mostly action in space with tons of blood and guts; male bonding; perfect bodies with no repercussions; no attachments; lots of heroism; but still there is love to be found out in lonely space.
So I was lucky enough to attend writers panels at DragonCon 2012, I would love to write a few books. :) So at one point I was asking about sex in novels and one writer in particular was horrified by my connection of the two to be the determinate feature of romance. After a year of ready VF, I am horrified at myself to! hahah .. not really but I think something that really binds the genre is the "desire", the desire for love, romance, or sex (any combination there of).
While men and women are different, we are more alike than different. I am think VF is PF :) I think cultural standards have been more influencing in what guys and ladies read more than the internal core of masculine and feminine left to there own natural dislikes and likes in literature. I know people would argue that everyone can identify with desiring love and romance, let's face it, it has to be in the high 90th percentiles.. probably similar to Felicia's SAT scores. (she is so brainy!)
Now, one last thing, I have to say, I think reading about sexy time stuff is so much more intimate than porn, I was pretty freaked out the first time I read something racy and was like.. OMG! are Bonnie, Felicia, Kiala, and Veronica reading this TO!??? I literally got all blushy and embarrassed.. ALONE, in my bed ahahahhah it WAS Ridiculous. Blame my religious upbringing. But I am over it now and love this book club! It's like literary REI adventure trips! Different thoughts are good for me :)
Thanks VF!
Doug, I love that comment. Thanks for that. I totally agree. It's the desire, more than the sexy times. Although the sexy times can be great too. That's why pride and prejudice and other stories like that are still VF for me. The desire is still there.
io9 just did a list of "11 Preposterously Manly Fantasy Series"not quite "penile fantasy" but struck me as related
http://io9.com/5977682/11-preposterou...
Tegan wrote: "io9 just did a list of "11 Preposterously Manly Fantasy Series"not quite "penile fantasy" but struck me as related
http://io9.com/5977682/11-preposterou..."
If those are all 'manly' then I guess I am really not. It does sometimes feel like that if you are non-misogynistic and feminist then you are not a 'real man'. Guess it somewhat shows how society also tries to push men into gender stereotypes too.
Mathew wrote: "Guess it somewhat shows how society also tries to push men into gender stereotypes too. "It does indeed. Some of us do make an effort to write against that, for what it's worth. And we don't sell well as a result. But our few fans are very, very happy and loyal, so there's that.
If there was a bit more sex in The Dresden Files i could really see that book series to be part of a "penile Fantasy" genre. There was some sex the 4th book I think it was. A Male protagonist, not focused on the romance, but there is some there.
Mathew wrote: "If those are all 'manly' then I guess I am really not. It does sometimes feel like that if you are non-misogynistic and feminist then you are not a 'real man'. Guess it somewhat shows how society also tries to push men into gender stereotypes too. " I do admit I do think the writer of that list should have decided more if he was going for "manly" in the comedic Schwartzenegger-as-Conan type way or not. Gor falls into one extreme. Dresden Files, Wheel of Time, and Lord of the Rings rather fall into a different definition of "manly."
I found the list amusing and it seemed relevant as some of the titles listed have been mentioned in this discussion.
And that list just feels wrong. I love many of those books/series. And I certainly don't see all high fantasy sories as "male/manly-fantasy" just because the protagonist is Male. And for me, Male/female fantasy is not the same as Penile/vaginal fantasy. The latter is for me, a book where there is smut in a way or another.
I commented on an earlier discussion, but I think John Ringo's Ghost http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23... is a perfect example of Penile Fantasy. Over the top lead male character with romance angles especially in later books.
Michael wrote: "I commented on an earlier discussion, but I think John Ringo's Ghost http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23... is a perfect example of Penile Fantasy. Over the top lead male character with r..."I definitely agree on Ringo's Ghost series.
Maybe b/c I found them all through the Baen Free Library (which now after the Amazon contract is bascially being completely phased out *cries*), I tend to think of John Ringo in conjunction with Eric Flint and David Weber - but I'd say they all have some books that fall into that category of "penile fantasy." If not they at least have some books which are quite happy with their masculinity with some romance thrown in.
Vaginal Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Old Man's War (other topics)Hounded (other topics)
Crooked Fang (other topics)
The Deed of Paksenarrion (other topics)
That's a great idea!