A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
This topic is about
A Dance with Dragons
Only read if you have gotten past A Dance With Dragons!
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
Currer
(new)
-
added it
Dec 27, 2012 05:38PM
Okay, so in A Dance With Dragons it is revealed that Varys has always planned to restore the throne to the Targaryens, and permitted Cersei to kill all of Robert's bastard children so that no one can lay claim to the throne who is Baratheon blood. BUT... In A Clash of Kings Varys told Tyrion that he spared the eldest bastard a.k.a Gendry.What's up with that?! What do you think Varys is planning? Was this a simple misstep on Martin's part or will Gendry become another viable contender for the Iron Throne?
reply
|
flag
Is it possible that Gendry is Robert's oldest bastard, or is he even a bastard at all? I'm curious as there is no mention of a living Baratheon heir from Cersei, but might she just think the boy is dead, but in fact he was smuggled out of the Red Keep, possibly replaced by another child. Varys' work perhaps?
In the second (I believe) book, when Arya is traveling towards Winterfell disguised as a boy with Gendry and the others, don't soldies meet them at an inn, where they are presumably there to kill Gendry (or were they after Arya)? My memory is a bit sketchy since I read the first 3 books in summer 2011. But is that is the case, than Gendry's survival was an accident on the soldiers part.
I think you're right, as I recall they were after the boy with the bull helmet,but were repulsed by Yoren and the brother's of the night's watch who had come to King's Landing 'recruiting'.Interestingly his mother is said to be a worker at a local alehouse, who died while he was young, and the only thing he recalls of her is that she is blonde. Of course Cersei is not the only blonde woman, but I wonder how much of that tale is true or fabricated.
I don't remember the conversation where Varys told Tyrion about Gendry but i really don't think anybody spared him. i mean they sent soldiers after him twice. he only survived because Yomen decided to fight the soldiers. And I definitely don't believe anything Varys tells anyone. he's a creepy, mysterious guy, nobody knows what he's really planning but i really dont see why he would help Gendry. I mean if he was very keen on helping the Baratheons he would reveal Cercei's secrets to Robert and save him, wouldn't he?And as to Gendry being trueborn, that's really far-fetched. Why? Because Cercei has never given birth to Robert's child.
Well, that may be so, but who's to say that the possibility might not exist. After all, for most of the series we all thought Aegon was dead. Basically we'll just have to wait and see what GRRM has in mind, I for one am not ruling it out, but neither am I clinging to it and saying, yes he will be shown to be true born. Words are wind and I trust nothing any of the characters say until it is proven indefinitely.
Well, Cercei personally denied it when she was talking to Ned. She told him that she once was pregnant with Robert's baby and Jamie found someone to abort it. and let's say for the sake of argument that Cercei did indeed give birth to Robert's son, who would kidnap it and for what purpose? They did replace Aegon with another child to save his life and so that he could claim the throne once he grows up and all. But why would anyone steal Cercei and Robert's son(supposing he did actually exist for which there's not even a single evidence or a clue)?
Well it might be possible that Cersei led? Or perhaps had a selective memory of what happened. I'm not saying that is what happened, just that it might actually be possible. As for the hypothetical son being kidnapped, who's to say he was kidnapped? Perhaps he was secreted away by persons unknown to remain hidden in plain sight, somewhere where he would not be noticed, and when he was, he had already been secured. We only have Cersei's word for what happens, and as I said, the only one I trust is Martin, so I'm not saying no it's impossible but neither will I claim it to be the definitive truth.
well, i guess it's possible in the sense that everything's possible. Like it's possible that Jon may turn out to be Catelyn and Ned's son. i personally think this theory is unconvincing and hihgly unlikely. and definitely don't see why it is necessary. it would also be very unoriginal because Martin has done the same thing once before with Aegon.
I think it would be more likely that Grendy is Ned and Cercei's kid. That's to say no chance in the seven hells
I don't know. Martin's not the sort of writer who can let something like that slip through the cracks of editing. Varys doesn't trust anyone but Tyrion was only trying to right his sister and nephews wrongs, not keep the Baratheon or Lannister family on the throne, so he wasn't a threat to Varys' plan. Gendry could possibly be Cersei's kid but I need more proof with that one. And yes soldiers were sent to kill Gendry but between the war waging on the King's Road and the black brothers excorting them they really didn't stand a chance. Then they ended up at Harrenhald so Gendry was pretty much lost after that and is mentioned here and there through the rest of the books. I really think this might mean something, but then again Gendry isn't interested in anything that has to do with Westros.
My new pet theory is Gendry will be Azor Ahai or Prince That Was Promised (Or both in one, depending on how that works out)I've also considered that maybe he is Ashara Dayne's child and that Robert was the one who "defiled" her at Harrenhal. (Do believe the timeline fits from reading on the wiki)
Or maybe he is just Martin's way of showing us the way commonfolk see things and act. Most the characters are all highborn and he includes characters like Jon and Gendry to create a more well rounded world.
All in all though, I dont remember that conversation with Varys and Tyrion. From what I remember Tyrion and Varys arent even on the same continent in Dance with Dragons....Either way though, Varys didnt stop crap. Cersei sent gaurds to kill Gendry and her plan was thwarted by Tobho Mott sending Gendry away and Yoren defending him. Maybe Varys told Tobho so he could send him away early - I'd believe that. But Varys didnt save him. IMO.
I have my own questions about Varys and Illyrio's intent though. So interesting to read this little tid bit I forgot.
Michelle Elizabeth wrote: "In the second (I believe) book, when Arya is traveling towards Winterfell disguised as a boy with Gendry and the others, don't soldies meet them at an inn, where they are presumably there to kill G..."The soldiers were looking for Gendry, the lock smith's boy with the bull head mask I think. They new he was one of Roberts bastards. They didn't know Arya was with that group.
Kenneth wrote: "I think it would be more likely that Grendy is Ned and Cercei's kid. That's to say no chance in the seven hells"" the others take him"
I thought Cersei and Robert did have a son that was born but then died....????
@ Shelli - that is only in the show which isn't cannon. They've changed things here and there to give it a better TV feel.I read today they'd be killing characters in the new season that are still alive in book 5.
Not sure how I feel about that, there characterization of Robert on that show, and also there random add ins like Cersei's fake baby (totally not necessary at all) have dissapointed me.
Overall its a well done show, but somethings just don't make sense on it and they're certainly not adding anything to the story.
Thanks Amber...I didn't know that. I mean, I've read all the books...but the first ones awhile ago....I just recently watched the first two seasons of the show so that explains that! I guess I assumed they wouldn't make unnecessary changes like that.....good to know.
No Problem. It's a common mistake actually. I see it on ASOIAF threads all the time. I think thats why it kinda irks me a bit. (with the TV show creators - not the fans) That particular scene confuses many fans and it added absolutely zero drama to the tv show. They should have just left it the way it was with Cersei finding someone to abort her child with Robert like she mentions in GoT. The only thing I can think is they wanted to humanize Cersei's character for some random reason - or maybe they felt akward addressing Medieval Abortion.
I wonder why they changed it too...your ideas are good. Only....I don't think Cersei should be humanized!! I don't want to feel anything for her...she's awful.
I know! That seems like the only real rational reason I can think that they would add that in, but at the same time, it just isnt the spirit of the story Martin told, IMO.Cersei hardly has any redeeming qualities throughout the entire series. Maybe her twisted love for her family, but you later realize those feelings only ever manifested because they (her family) all featured outlying characteristics of herself.
I don't know. It kinda pisses me off that they humanized Cersei with that moment, then went on to make Robert into some kinda sexual pervert that forces her into orgys. They colored him with Aerys a bit too much for my liking. If anyone was the bad guy in that relationship it was Cersei and the show makes it seem more like it was Robert.
Obviously all of that is just my opinion. And I do like the show, just some stuff that bothered me a bit.
The Cersei having a baby that she thinks is dead is interesting, but I don't remember that being in the books. It certainly souds like it was from the show. But if Gendry was Cersei's son, who took him? How come she doesn't know that he's alive?
It's not in the books.Cersei never has a child that dies.
There is no way Gendry could even be Cersei and Robert's son - it wouldn't fit the timeline, he was born the same year as Robb and Jon, before Cersei and Robert were even married.
Oh, seriously guys, when did Cercei have a son from Robert? If she did indeed have Robert's child, why wasn't such an important thing ever mentioned in any of those 5 books? Only once in the first book Cercei, while talking to Ned, confessed that she had once been pregnant with Robert's child and Jaime had taken care of it. Don't confuse the book with the show. Cercei has never given birth to Robert's child and Gendry can not be Cercei's child.
Cersei and Robert didn't even sleep together, she hated him that much. But people who support this theory have to have reasons. I just can't see what evidence they could have.
They only suggest it because they've heard it on the show and perhaps they have a bad memory. Because anyone who's read the books and remembers them knows that Cercei has never given birth to Robert's child. This is probably something she prides herself on.
It is definitely something she prides herself on. When nNed confronted her in the godswood about her children belonging to Jaime she was completely unrepentent. After rereading the later books I'm pretty convinced that Martin isn't going to use Gendry for anything. I think he was just the bastard who got away.
Cercei is completely unrepentant. She and Jaime seared their consciences with the thought they were like the Targaryens, marrying brother to sister. It was just inconvenient she was married to Robert.
Woolfie wrote: "Is it possible that Gendry is Robert's oldest bastard, or is he even a bastard at all? I'm curious as there is no mention of a living Baratheon heir from Cersei, but might she just think the boy is..."Mya Stone is Roberts' oldest bastard.
Woolfie wrote: "I think you're right, as I recall they were after the boy with the bull helmet,but were repulsed by Yoren and the brother's of the night's watch who had come to King's Landing 'recruiting'.Interes..."
That is from the show, not the books.
J wrote: "Michelle Elizabeth wrote: "In the second (I believe) book, when Arya is traveling towards Winterfell disguised as a boy with Gendry and the others, don't soldies meet them at an inn, where they are..."Blacksmith.
Dionna wrote: "Woolfie wrote: "I think you're right, as I recall they were after the boy with the bull helmet,but were repulsed by Yoren and the brother's of the night's watch who had come to King's Landing 'recr..."This is in the books as well. Gendry remembers his mother being blonde as well as singing, he tells Ned in the scene where he meets him.
Also the men do come looking for Gendry not Arya and Yoren repels them, only to later be attacked again.
The soldiers are def looking for Gendry in the books.
Dionna wrote: "Woolfie wrote: "Is it possible that Gendry is Robert's oldest bastard, or is he even a bastard at all? I'm curious as there is no mention of a living Baratheon heir from Cersei, but might she just ..."You are so right! I forgot about her because they tend to mention her briefly then not at all.
Robert wrote: "Cercei is completely unrepentant. She and Jaime seared their consciences with the thought they were like the Targaryens, marrying brother to sister. It was just inconvenient she was married to Ro..."Exactly. Cersei was just waiting for Robert to die. Though Robert didn't love her any better.
