Action/Adventure Aficionados discussion
The Reader <--> Writer Interface
>
Questions for those who write from those who read
Mod
The main character is a Priest. That's very interesting and, if not unheard of, certainly not your normal sort of Hero. How did you come decide on a priest instead of some "agent" of the church like a modern Paladin (which is a lot more common, but also more flexible) or a parishoner with a lot of faith? Was it more challenging to write for a priest than some of the supporting cast?
(Okay, more than one question.)
Those are questions that have never been posed before, so I have to do some pondering and soul searching. Stories don’t always come out the way you intend them, and such is the case with The Psalter. Father Romano, the protagonist, wasn’t originally the main character. When I got about a quarter of the way through the first draft, I realized that he had to be the main man. It’s his pig-headed search for the truth that propels the story forward. So I had to go back and rewrite the opening scenes. The original protagonist, a Carabinieri colonel, took on a supporting role, and Romano was promoted to the star.I came to like Romano a lot. Sure, he’s a priest, but quite a conflicted one who arrives at a turning point in his life. Perhaps more accurately, he’s driven to a turning point. More than that, he’s impulsive, reckless, and a man of action; not great qualities for success in the Church. So he frequently finds himself in trouble.
Many of my characters are priests, cardinals, bishops, etc.—both past and present. It was easier to write about historical clerics rather than modern-day ones, especially since I’m not Catholic. I relied on mounds of research materials to begin with--especially books written by priests—to get a feel for their lives and thoughts. But the further I got into the story, the characters’ personalities began to reveal themselves, and it became easier. Nevertheless, I tightened the accuracy a lot during rewrites. And certainly, I breathed huge sighs of relief when I wrote about characters who were not priests, since I felt far less constrained.
With The Psalter, I came to feel that I wasn’t really telling the story; rather, it revealed itself to me.
You’re making me work really hard, Curmudgeon.
That work is worthwhile, Galen. It makes your book more intriguing.
Mod
Thanks for the answer. It does make your book more interesting.
Thanks for your observation, Jim; and Curmudgeon, what seemed at first like a simple question(s) was subtly insightful. It forced me to think about my choices. I had never thought that priests are seldom, if ever, main characters or heroes. That’s a great catch; and thanks for giving me a chance to explain some characterizations, as well as for giving me a reason to reflect on it. I almost forgot to add, the image of your father as 'The Wild-haired Radical' minister is a powerful one. I love it.
Mod
I must admit that that may have been a distinction about his politics rather than his faith, but, I kind of like the way it sounds too.
({B-{D>)
Mod
I posted my review and, I've stated that what really got my attention were how well and open you wrote the human story, Divorce and dealing with a child that has special needs. Lots of time in books, those situations are stilted so that there is a "good guy" and a "bad guy." Even when they are written as neutral, the non-main character still tends to look like the bad guy. To me it seemed more like you managed to tell that part of the story in a way where I could empathize and sympathize with both people equally.
Was it hard for you to keep it like that?
I also found both of your main female characters as very strong in a very realistic way. I'd call it "the kind of strength that women have and men envy." Yet they didn't get into any gunfights or fisticuffs etc. They were just dealing with life on life's terms. Did you see them that way?
And does Ethan ever get to go back to South Africa and see what happened to that sweet preety young lady at the mine?
Hi Hugh,Thanks for the kind words, and for asking questions about Finding Round.
I'm a Libra, and have been kind of cursed my whole life with seeing both sides of a situation, even when emotionally and logically I prefer one over another. It's finally turned into a positive trait now that I'm writing. :) I also really like Craig and Chelsea, who they are and what they stand for, and wanted readers to feel the same way. Thanks for letting me know it worked for you!
I didn't set out to write the two main female characters as strong per se. What I wanted to show was almost the opposite. A lot of women have a way of trying to make everyone else in their world happy, putting themselves and what they want/need last. Sometimes that pent-up need from 'putting off' comes blasting out, and then changes come, usually in a straw/camel, hell-or-high-water kind of way.
The muse snuck Ann and Steve into the story, and once they showed up, I wrote with my heart for them. They both deserved to be brought fully to life for the reader.
If I write a sequel, Ethan might get a date with Emily. ;)
message 10:
by
The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be
(last edited Dec 12, 2012 05:59PM)
(new)
Mod
Thanks for the kind words, and for asking questions about Finding Round.
I'm a Libra, and have been kind of cursed my whole life with seeing both sides of a situation, even when emotion..."
Well, I thought Anne was a pillar of strength, and I point out, The guy (her husband) bolted way before the story ever started. She just kept getting up every morning, and doing what had to be done to make it another day.
I also liked the neighbor thing, that helped them seem very real.
anyway, thank you for answering as quickly and thoroughly as you did. I loved the characters.
Mod
I've seen you blogging about your new book The Geneva Decision and you mentioned that you wanted your Heroine to be more than just a "Kick-Ass" Shoot-em-up action heroine. I interpteted that as wanting her to have some depth of character.
Many Action Adventure Heroes and Heroines are primarily combat monsters with a likeable disposition.
Can you explain what you mean by making her more than just a combat mogel in heels? (my words, but, I hope you understand what I'm getting at.)
I, Curmudgeon wrote: "combat mogel in heels"I LIKE that description :)
All characters have to have some back story: Nora Roberts/JD Robb's Eve Dallas was sexually abused and killed her father; Zoe Sharp's Charlie Fox was raped in the Army and victimized by the system; Iris Johansen's Catherine Ling was abandoned as a child and adopted by the CIA (shudder:) -- and those backgrounds give the character depth and motivation to seek justice. They have to overcome their fear & anguish and we root for them doing so. Great.
What is the next step for character development? How does any person, regardless of their childhood, react to homelessness? or poverty? How many times in our lives have we stopped in the middle of a busy day to help someone lost, or give to a charity, or promote a cause? You do good things in your life. I try now and then. Ever see James Bond 'give back'?
I wrote a character that has a tragic childhood, personal demons that drive her to succeed, etc. But she also stops to reunite a lost boy and outfits a poverty stricken soccer club - without breaking stride. I'd like to think my heroes/heroines are aware of their surroundings enough to do something for others and STILL catch the bad guys.
But that's not the only thing I like to see distinguish a hero/heroine. How about hobbies? What does James Bond do to relax? (OK, bad example... we know he chases women in his spare time :)
Side note: I thought it was hilarious when Cussler created a son and daughter for Dirk Pitt. How many children have James Bond and Jack Reacher fathered over the years? :)
Peace, Seeley
Mod
She sounds like an interesting character.
Mod
Where did you get the idea or inspiration f.or Tommy?
The dude's a hoot! Twice as fun as "Q"?
And for the record, I loved the suped-up jet ski scene!
Hi Hugh & Sally,I had to snap up Butler Did It after reading this Q&A and Hugh's great review. I'm looking forward to reading it.
Best of luck with strong sales on it, Keith and Sally!
Mod
(Thank you Alex!)
LOL, you always make me smile Hugh. And I really did read every word. I love your reviews because I learn a lot as a writer, and since I'm a reader first, I like hearing what made you like/not the book(s). :)
Mod
Well, now I'm smilin' Thank you. And blushing, but, thank God (or Gods, or Higher Power, Divine Entity, or philosophical teachings of your choice) for the non-visual media, you can't see me.
As a Curmudgeon, I have a rep to uphold!
Ha ha! Yeah, these kids and their Iphones/Face Time, oy vey! Makes me think back on The Jetsons cartoons ( miss those)...and now we're living it. I prefer to keep my messy hair and bleary eyes to myself in the morning, too. I'm still waiting for the techies to come out with that conveyor belt Jane used to jump on...ten seconds later she'd come out gorgeous and ready to go. :)
This is a great thread, Hugh. I'll search my brain for questions for authors. I think the thread's got legs, so hang in there with it. Thanks.
Galen wrote: "Those are questions that have never been posed before, so I have to do some pondering and soul searching. Stories don’t always come out the way you intend them, and such is the case with The Psalte...With The Psalter, I came to feel that I wasn’t really telling the story; rather, it revealed itself to me..."
That seems to bae true of the writing process, Galen. Most of the writers I know say that their characters talk to them, telling the story. I only know one very successful writer that said she outlines the whole book and doesn't deviate from the outline. I found that my stories unfolded before my eyes. I would say to myself, "Oh. I didn't know he felt that way about it. Ah."
I, Curmudgeon wrote: "My "great review?" (blink blink)... when has that ever happened? I'm just glad somebody read one and didn't send it back with the spelling corrected! (Thank you Alex!)"
I am resisting that temptation.
Mod
Thank you Jim. We try.
Patti wrote: "That seems to be true of the writing process, Galen. Most of the writers I know say that their characters talk to them, telling the story. ..."It was certainly the case for me, Patti; and the more I wrote about the characters—especially the dialogue--the more they began to tell me what to say, but also where the story was going. I mentioned, earlier, that I had to go back and rewrite the beginning chapters of the novel when I changed protagonists. What I didn’t say, was that I went into a period of writer’s block. When I couldn’t write, I spent the time refining my outline. My writer’s voice was, in fact, still telling me what to write but it didn’t fit the outline, so I wasn’t listening. Finally, out of frustration, I chucked the outline, mostly, and began to write what came to me. The final product was a bit disjointed in the first draft, but I shored it up in the re-writes. I’ll never ignore those pesky, insistent voices again.
Galen wrote: "Patti wrote: "That seems to be true of the writing process, Galen. Most of the writers I know say that their characters talk to them, telling the story. ... "It was certainly the case for me, Patt...I’ll never ignore those pesky, insistent voices again. "
The readers of the world thank you. I can't imagination sticking rigidly to an outline. I think writing a natural progression makes a better book.
Thanks, Alex! I really hope you enjoy it!Alex wrote: "Hi Hugh & Sally,
I had to snap up Butler Did It after reading this Q&A and Hugh's great review. I'm looking forward to reading it.
Best of luck with strong sales on it, Keith and Sally!"
I, Curmudgeon wrote: "I wonder what James Bond does to relax? I think he played golf once... Thank you for the answer, Seely... and there is probably a 007 orphanage somewhere.
She sounds like an interesting character."
Thanks for the question Hugh, and sorry I didn't see it at first. Tommy is modeled on Steve Zahn's character in the movie Sahara. At least that's the way he started out. It's so much fun to write a humorous character, but also a guy who's a great friend and a smart guy, at least in some ways. The inventor aspect of his character grew out of necessity, he is a great way to solve some challenges, as well as to add in a little goofy fun. Tommy has a great surprise coming up in the next book, Just as soon as we can get it published.
message 28:
by
The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be
(last edited Dec 16, 2012 01:20PM)
(new)
Mod
Even though I bristled at the way he handled his relationship with E.B., that seemed to give him more depth and individuality, especially with Matthew and Katherine hooking up.
And, I say again, I just loved the "Jet-Ski" scene. The peanut gallery's comments were hilarious!
and (view spoiler) and (view spoiler).
For the record, you may have had Steve Zahn's character as inspiration, but Tommy came out of the mix being very unique and fun, to me.
Any plans to get more out of "E.B.?" I thought she had so much potential out of that group to be a strong heroine. She lead her team in a firefight after all, had a real job (and an important one) and was good at it (just like the guys).
Oh, the morning Tai Chi lessons? Those were pretty cool too.
Thanks for all these kind comments. EB is an interesting character and is a great possibility to develop in book three. She is not in book two as Matthew and Tommy leave their ship for a trip to Matthew's home town. They are back on the Pelican for book three, now in the planning stages.
Mod
DUDE! that's a kind of chilling speil on the Goodreads Book thread. Which, I mean in a good way.
A love story written in blood? Wow, I'm paying attention. This already sounds a lot darker than Firebird. Can you tell me more about Thunder?
And, how would you classify, catagorize, or genre-size it? I mean, it's hard to really put books in a "Genre" yet, we can, where does this book fit? Horror, Action adventure, Crime fighters, paranormal activity?
I'm just very, very curious, Man!
Was writing this one (your second right?) different for you than writing the first one?
Oh, and congratulations on getting your second book out!
A love story written in blood?Now...that got my attention. Please tell us more, Anthony.
I, Curmudgeon wrote: "I had a question for Anthony Bellaleigh. Your new book Thunder. DUDE! that's a kind of chilling speil on the Goodreads Book thread. Which, I mean in a good way.
A love story written in blood?..."
Hi all, yes, apologies for not being around very much for a while. I made myself a target of getting Thunder finished in the Autumn and (only just) made it!
Thank you all so much for the positive feedback to the blurb. It took quite a while to craft the picture I wanted. It's good to see it seems to be working.
The book... well. It's completely different to Firebird and that's deliberate. Whilst my stories may or may not have sequels 'in them', even as an amateur, I write for the love of the art. To do that, I have to write from the heart... In other, less poetic, words: I can only write the stories that are in my head!
There are some common themes between the books:
- ordinary people are at the heart of the action
- human perception has flaws
- not all is as it seems
- a Greek island makes an appearance...
Thunder is a modern day action thriller. I'd classify it as thoroughbred "Action & Adventure". It flitters across mainland Europe and Western Asia. Learning from Firebird, I've worked hard on character development, plot lines and maintaining more even pacing throughout (proofreaders are very pleasantly using words like 'exhausting', 'breakneck' and 'page turner')... I feel like - and am hoping readers will agree - it's a big step forwards for me.
The rest, well, I don't want to spoil it for anyone.
As is usual with Amazon, the first 10% (c.10,000 words) are a free download. If anyone does give it a go then please, please, let me know how you get on... Book #3 is in the melting pot that is my slightly-whacky mind and I try to learn and improve from every piece of feedback I get... (trolls excepted... LOL!)...
This looks like a great idea! I always think about questions I'd like to ask authors....maybe I'll be able to get some answers. :)
Mod
Mod
Is that the Jack Reacher you mean in your story, and how did that come about?
I have a question for writers...Why and what decisions go into killing people off in your books? Do kill people off as you go or you already have a outline of "who dies" in your head.
Hi Eileen, I never thought of a "who dies" list, although it seems like some Tv shows have them, eg, anybody who hits a woman, any Star Trek red shirt, well, that's all I can think of, but you know what I mean. In the Butler series we are trying to keep the deaths to a minimum. If the cause is great enough or the bad guy bad enough, they have to die. Also, some people have to die to show how bad the bad guy is. I've often thought about this human need for a death, a mystery just isn't enough, it has to be a murder. I don't have any answers, i just know that it is the way it is.
Yunno. Sometimes it's just "that" time. Maybe the story needs a little zinger, or it just hits you out of the blue: Why, he's just gotta go.
Hi Eileen,I'm more of a plotter than pantster, so I kill 'em off in my outline. How they get wacked is often a decision made by the muse while laying the words down...combined with my love of action scenes. I like blowing stuff up...it's fun!
Eileen wrote: "I have a question for writers...Why and what decisions go into killing people off in your books? Do kill people off as you go or you already have a outline of "who dies" in your head."
Great question!
Everyone has lost someone special to them. Losing someone makes us appreciate our loved ones that much more.
As writers, we need to tap into reader emotions to get the thrills, chills and spills. But it's a fine line between too much and not enough. Readers feel the life-threatening situations are unrealistic if no one ever dies. Case in point: James Rollins' excellent Sigma series. None of the Sigma people have suffered very much (Monk appeared to drown once, but he came back). For long time fans like me, that makes the next book a little less exciting because it's a safe, maybe too safe.
There is also the need for realism. Movies are totally whacked. I just saw ARNOLD's newest movie in which his deputy hides behind a car while 9 bad guys shoot 10,000 rounds at him, then fire a Bazooka which throws the car a hundred feet in the air. The deputy appears to die... but only has a single bullet in his shoulder. Uh-huh, right.
And don't get me started on how many bad guys can't aim as well as my dog. If you run through a room full of blind men firing AK47s, you're probably going to die--the odds are not in your favor.
But for me, killing people off is not just a matter of reality & physics, nor is it a gratuitous emotional tug. I think the best characters in our books are the ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others. I try to honor my favorite characters by having them save everyone else -- even if that means using his/her body as a living shield.
My editor wanted one sacrificial character to be the Obi Wan for my heroine, and advocated his pulling through the battle wounded instead of dead. I reminded him that Obi Wan died. He had to in order to make the readers/viewers appreciate Luke, et al even more.
Peace, Seeley
Often the character 'decides' - by this I mean, if a character has THIS sort of outlook/these personality traits - there are times when, if one stays true to that individual - that character is just not going to get out of that scenario alive.Either they're the strong sort that plays TOO tough a hero or heroine, and the altruistic ethic is just TOO much to let go and run; or someone they care about beyond survival HAS to be saved; or they are flat out too cowardly to do what has to be done to survive, or they run, and somebody faster shoots them in the back...often the character's own traits dictate whether they live or die, and if they are honestly handled and written 'true' to their character, you just know which way the die will fall for them. When this happens, you suck it up and let them go.
Janny wrote: "Often the character 'decides' - by this I mean, if a character has THIS sort of outlook/these personality traits - there are times when, if one stays true to that individual - that character is jus..."Well said.
Thank you all for answering my question! I'm sorry I'm late in responding, full day of sports. Hockeys back....Go Sabres....congrats to the Ravens and 49er!@Sally, I do think the bad guys should die if there inherently evil or it's the protagonist nemesis. You wouldn't have a mystery workout a murder.
@Jim, There's nothing better than a good zinger.
@Alex, I understand sometimes the Muse takes over and you have no control. Yes, it's fun to blow things up!
@Seeley, good point! As a reader I do feel closer and sympathize to the main character when someone dies close to them. Even though
sometimes it makes me angry. Screaming at the page...NO...not him or her.
@Janny, I would imagine as a writer it can always be easy to let
someone die.
Mod
Eileen wrote: "Even though sometimes it makes me angry. Screaming at the page...NO...not him or her. "
That is the reaction writers are going for. We want you screaming at the page, emotionally involved.
I have noticed authors seem to write books of close to the same length. Does every author have a sweet spot for books of a certain page length? Some authors always end around 500 pages others always end at 200. Do you write with a target length of book in mind?
Mod
I second the question and I might add a follow up (which is odd before there is an answer, I know) where does the pressure come from to cut or change this or that so the book is shorter? Is it internal, or external?
I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Travis of NNY wrote: "I have noticed authors seem to write books of close to the same length. Does every author have a sweet spot for books of a certain page length? Some authors always end around ..."Two questions, so I'll make up 2 answers (hey, I'm in the fiction business :)
Before we get to those though, there is one constant that is similar in many forms: for 200 years, Symphonies have clocked in at ~45 minutes; Movies have always been about 2 hours; books are about 85,000 words. Exceptions abound, but that's what the public expects. Anything short or long on those parameters has to have a reason the buying public will agree to.
1) Page length: Scifi, paranormal, dystopian, etc tend to be longer (150,000 words) than conventional, here-now novels (75,000 - 90,000 words). That is because those genres involve worlds that need explaining along with plot and character. Combined with that is the unknown-author-reader-reluctance equation, or the unwillingness of a reader to invest 15+ hours with an unknown author.
What you end up with is -- JK Rowling's first Harry Potter at 65,000 words, and her last at > 250,000. Bear in mind that we read at 150-300 words per minute, so even a speed reader is going spend 13+ hours on the last HP book, and a plodding reader like me is going closer to 20 hours. If the first book had been as long as the last, no one would have picked it up.
2) Which leads us to your second question: where does the pressure come from? In my case, I wrote a novel that was 90,000 words and, on the advice of my editor, cut it to 75,000 words. His point was, "You have the right idea, but you don't have the name yet." Our plan was, Sell the first book, gain some followers who will tell their friends, then add a little more depth with each new book.
That made a great deal of sense to me. I'm a firm believer in "a little humility goes a long way". So I followed his suggestions in most areas. As we discussed in another post, I wasn't happy about it, but the editor was right about the reality of the situation. To me, readers are everything. I feel the need to earn their trust before making them slog through my geo-political viewpoints, bad puns, poetic waxing about sunsets, whatever.
NEW WRINKLE: The rise of the SERIAL NOVEL. Take the concepts above and ask yourself, if I pick up a serial like Hugh Howey's WOOL, how long do I expect it to be? I'm working on Pia's next full length novel and simultaneously writing a serial. I've pegged the serial at ~ 12,000 words or around a 45 minute read. I'll put the first serial out for free with four more installments at a lower price than a novel. I 'think' that works out to a good deal for both reader and writer, neither making as big an investment unless they like it.
OK, I over-explained it, but there you have it :)
I don't think you over-explained it, Seeley. Very interesting. Do you see ebooks changing expectations in regards to length? I'd think that a real book would have a certain amount of built-in costs whether it was short or long, so would have to hit a price point to be profitable. Ace doubles & anthologies have similar constraints. Ebooks have much less, I would think.
There are three costs for any book: 1) writing/editing; 2) production and distribution; & 3) marketing. Two of those three remain the same no matter what you do, but ebooks have changed #2 dramatically. Most of the hardcopy cost is setup and shipping, while page count cost is nominal--thus not a factor in length. But other factors are affecting length. John Locke pioneered short-length books out of his total ignorance of writing. (A novella is ~50,000, Locke's were 25-45,000.) When he was a phenom, I read several of his books out of curiosity. They were funny, clever, but had no structure and no consistency. I knew his flame would burn out quickly - and it did (long before his review-fraud came to light). You can't really short people's expectations. A book has to have a beginning, a middle and an end. And readers expect those three things to be fully fleshed out.
Ebooks have created a new opportunity though -- the serial. The biggest cost in any book is borne by the author: time. You spend a thousand hours creating a mystery/thriller and it could flop. This risk used to be absorbed by publishers. But lately, they've been waiting to see what readers buy out of indie-land, then offer the author a deal (EL James is a prime example).
The serial turned that process on it's head. Hugh Howey wrote a short story called WOOL, published it, had unexpected throngs ask him for more, wrote part 2, and the thing took off. (He sold the movie rights a year after finishing the fifth installment. After that press release, every publisher in America offered Howey their boilerplate contracts, making it clear they had no idea what he'd stumbled on. He ended up signing a contract for less money but allowing him to retain more control.)
What WOOL did was allow an author to try a new character set (James Rollins does this a lot, see Altar of Eden and Deep Fathom) without having to invest a year and $25,000 in editing & services plus untold amounts of advertising.
So, is the novel shorter? Or is it evolving back to the Sherlock Holmes' time? The resulting book is different from a full novel, the classic four-act book has to have 4-5 standalone segments, but writers like me are starting with that in mind so we don't end up with Howey's strangely fascinating look at five different characters and events. (His is like five continuing short stories.)
I think the market is dictating something new that works for both reader and writer. In another month, you can pick up the first installment of my serialized novel for free and determine if you like it enough to get the next 4 installments. If you invest in my serial (or WOOL), the total will still come to ~85,000 words, but you have the option of bailing out at anytime.
Pretty exciting times!
Peace, Seeley
Action/Adventure Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Butler Did It! (other topics)Zero Point (other topics)
If You Give a Pig a Pancake (other topics)
Operator (other topics)
Thunder (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Tim Fairchild (other topics)Seeley James (other topics)
Anthony Bellaleigh (other topics)
Jack Badelaire (other topics)
Randolph Lalonde (other topics)
More...
I believe that those in our group who have written books, are more than willing to answer questions. Please insert a hyperlink to the book and author by using the "add book/author" function. You can find that just above the post-window on the right side.
I will do my best make sure writers are aware of the questions for them on this thread but we ask that you please remember: as much as writers would like to answer questions about themselves (within reason) and their books (as many as they can), we understand that a writer's interests come with complex variables that dictate how much time they can spend answering questions and even which place or what questions they should answer (in this format especially). An Independent Publisher has to serve his business and marketing needs as well as his writer's natural, intelectual curiosity and inate sense of intelectual responsibility as a writer.
No author will have to justify "letting a question go unaswered." Having said that, we simply believe that authors want to, need to and like to answer questions about their books if given a chance.
If you would like to comment on an answer given by an author, simply "reply" to it on this thread.
I admit that we are sort of "experimenting" with this "direct connection for random questions between authors and readers thing." We'll work on making it more effective as we can.