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The Reader <--> Writer Interface > Questions for those who write from those who read

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message 51: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
I think this is the same theory, or similar to what Randolph Lalonde used to market his Spinward Fringe and "First Light" sci-fi series (according to his self-report, successfully enough to pay his bills).

IT's almost a throw back to the old "Dime-Store Novels" that taught the old west how to read.

When we talk about publishing, editors and agents etc, I always wonder at what I hear. It seems that their advice is often counter to what I believe works for me. (Yet I am on record as liking both Wool and Spinward Fringe, and I enjoyed Locke's first Novella too, thought it was a bit dark for me).

I wonder, is this where the self-pub-er, or the indie guy runs into the marketing crunch?

As a writer, you write it like you want it, or as close as you can get to that (I hope). Then, like every other publisher, indie or otherwise, you have to find a model to market your writing.

Is the E-Book Market flexible enough to support several ways of marketing?


message 52: by Seeley (new)

Seeley James (seeleyjames) | 367 comments I, Curmudgeon wrote: "I think this is the same theory, or similar to what Randolph Lalonde used to market his Spinward Fringe and "First Light" sci-fi series (according to his self-report, successfully enough to pay his..."

Yes, the ebook market is wide open. Traditional publishers, or 20th Century publishers, followed a model of managing classic financial risk versus investment. Because they were taking all the financial risk, 2 things followed: 1) they kept the profits; 2) they were not looking for anything outside the box.

Note: Traditional publishers also publish ebooks, so the distinction for me is Traditional model versus Indie model.

Because an indie model moves all the risk to the author, writers can put out anything. Everyone has a manuscript in the bottom drawer, why not toss it out there? The result is innovation. Books like WOOL and The Girl Who Would Be King would never have seen the light of day had it not been for Amazon's open publishing platform.

The only thing holding back everyone from going indie is just what you said: "is this where the self-pub-er, or the indie guy runs into the marketing crunch?" And it's not just marketing, there are other costs like editing ($6-7,000); cover art $2,000; publicity ($ Sky-is-limit); advertising and so on. An indie can easily sink $50-100,000 into a book if so inclined.

The marketing crunch comes in the advertising venue. Goodreads' front page costs a ton and requires a six month commitment. Indie's can't see that far into the future and traditional publishers can. If you've noticed, the front page of Goodreads has been dominated by traditional publishers for the past 4-5 months (when GR raised their rates substantially).


message 53: by Travis (new)

Travis (travistousant) | 362 comments Thanks for the responses Seeley


message 54: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimmaclachlan) Thanks, Seeley. Interesting stuff.


message 55: by Eileen (new)

Eileen Seeley wrote: "There are three costs for any book: 1) writing/editing; 2) production and distribution; & 3) marketing. Two of those three remain the same no matter what you do, but ebooks have changed #2 dramatic..."

I'll be very interested to see how the installments works out for you. I can see both the pros and cons to this idea. I will be one of your targeted readers who will be reading the first installment.

Thank you for explaining everything so well!


message 56: by Seeley (new)

Seeley James (seeleyjames) | 367 comments Eileen wrote: "Seeley wrote: "There are three costs for any book: 1) writing/editing; 2) production and distribution; & 3) marketing. Two of those three remain the same no matter what you do, but ebooks have chan..."

Glad it helped. And extra glad to hear you're willing to be one of my early victims :) I will let you know when it's out.

Peace, Seeley


message 57: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (last edited Jan 22, 2013 08:18AM) (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
If you like Sci-Fi LaLonde did a great job of pasting novella's together. They fit together seamlessly. I didn't know it was published as a Novella until discussion about the book later. He's a great example of the installment method (He calls them "Broadcasts"). By the end he was writing them as full length books.

That series starts with Origins which is actually an Omnibus of three novellas.


message 58: by Henry (new)

Henry Brown (machinetrooper) I have a question for Jack Badelaire about COMMANDO: Operation Arrowhead: Was your great uncle a kill-crazy former school teacher in the French Resistance during WWII? And explain the Lynch family tree, while you're at it (I assume the protagonist in Killer Instincts is related).


message 59: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments Henry: Can you post a large picture of the Red Truk on your page. The Truk is cool!


message 60: by Henry (new)

Henry Brown (machinetrooper) It's a 41 Willys! That pic is on another computer but I'll make sure to post the full size image for you.


message 61: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments Awesome! Totally awesome, dude! Thanks.


message 62: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (last edited Feb 05, 2013 05:30AM) (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Okay, question for Anthony Bellaleigh. I'm reading Thunder right now and, I realize that this is very dark (in a good way for a reader) and, it's very different in tone and emotional content from Firebird.

Was the change in writing part of a natural shifting of the phases of life for you, or did you make a conscious choice to change your style? (If so, what did you do to acheive that?)


Oh, and sub question: I usually do not like First Person - Present Tense writing and you have some scenes writen that way through a particularly important character's eyes...and...This may change my point of view on "point of view." I think it's very well done in that respect. So, is this the only way you could envision this book, or did you make a conscious choice to write some of the scenes in present tense through the eyes of this important character?


message 63: by Lisa P, My weekend is all booked up! (new)

Lisa P | 2076 comments Mod
I enjoyed your take on things Seeley...very interesting reading!


message 64: by Anthony (new)

Anthony Bellaleigh (anthonybellaleigh) | 76 comments I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Okay, question for Anthony Bellaleigh. I'm reading Thunder right now and, I realize that this is very dark (in a good way for a reader) and, it's very different in tone and emotional content from Firebird.

Was the change in writing part of a natural shifting of the phases of life for you, or did you make a conscious choice to change your style? (If so, what did you do to acheive that?) "


Hi Hugh, thanks for the questions and I'm really excited that you're reading the story!

Thunder is written in a darker style because it's what I think the subject-matter of the story needed. I just obeyed my imagination. Even so, I've tried very hard to maintain a sense of balance and tact, and to remain empathic to reader sensitivities, whilst injecting gravel to try to ensure that a sense of realism pervades. For me, it's about light and shade. I use lighthearted moments of humour to lift the shadows and try to avoid becoming gratuitous in the descriptive. Ultimately, I write knowing my Mum's likely going to read it... And, no-one wants to go getting the wrong side of their Mum, do they?

How did I do it? Not sure about that... carefully, I guess...?

First Person - Present Tense writing ... is this the only way you could envision this book, or did you make a conscious choice to write some of the scenes in present tense through the eyes of this important character?

Hmmm... Tricky one for me to answer here so let's just leave it as: it was deliberate and I had to learn how to do it. There is quite a complex shift between first-person and third-person throughout the novel, which I hope is coming across reasonably seamlessly, but the technique - whilst I've discovered I quite like it - was fraught with difficulties during both the writing and editing.


message 65: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Okay, question for Anthony Bellaleigh. I'm reading Thunder right now and, I realize that this is very dark (in a good way for a reader) and, it's very different in tone and emotional content from ..."

Hugh - Operator is a first person, present. And David does an excellent job with it. It's too difficult for me to try.


message 66: by Patricia (last edited Feb 06, 2013 11:29AM) (new)

Patricia (pattipunkin) | 267 comments Anthony wrote: "Okay, question for Ultimately, I write knowing my Mum's likely going to read it... And, no-one wants to go getting the wrong side of their Mum, do they?..."

You think that is tough, Anthony, try writing a romance you know your grown sons are going to read. :-)

Anthony said, "it was deliberate and I had to learn how to do it. There is quite a complex shift between first-person and third-person ..."

I have found that writing a scene in the first/present really helps you get into the scene. Helps to visiualize and verbalize the action.


message 67: by Seeley (new)

Seeley James (seeleyjames) | 367 comments Patti wrote: "I have found that writing a scene in the first/present really helps you get into the scene. Helps to visiualize and verbalize the action. "

I agree, Patti. First/present is the easiest for me. When I'm stuck, I use it to set up a scene, because you can visualize it better, then go back and change it to 3rd/past. I've found 1st/present to be unpopular with my readers.

Peace, Seeley


message 68: by Lisa P, My weekend is all booked up! (new)

Lisa P | 2076 comments Mod
Patti wrote: "Anthony wrote: "Okay, question for Ultimately, I write knowing my Mum's likely going to read it... And, no-one wants to go getting the wrong side of their Mum, do they?..."

You think that is tough, Anthony, try writing a romance you know your grown sons are going to read. :-)

..."



Lol, made me chuckle Patti!


message 69: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Lisa wrote: "Lol, made me chuckle Patti! ..."

You think..."


Yeah, laugh it up... that whole thing was uncomfortable to me too... of course Adam skipped the sex parts. (See, your never too old to deflect things by blaming your Little Brother...or which ever broth isn't in the room at the time...even if it's a virtual room.)


message 70: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Anthony wrote: "Thunder is written in a darker style because it's what I think the subject-matter of the story needed. I just obeyed my imagination. Even so, I've tried very hard to maintain a sense of balance and tact, and to remain empathic to reader sensitivities, whilst injecting gravel to try to ensure that a sense of realism pervades. For me, it's about light and shade. I use lighthearted moments of humour to lift the shadows and try to avoid becoming gratuitous in the descriptive. Ultimately, I write knowing my Mum's likely going to read it... And, no-one wants to go getting the wrong side of their Mum, do they?

How did I do it? Not sure about that... carefully, I guess...?..."


I found that the scenes through "The major character to be protected from spoilage"'s eyes really got me caught up in the emotional side of what was going on with the guy. The scene he was witness too might get everybody, but even after that, it helped me "Get" the entire make up of the character from what drives him to what he's going through. (and, I've been avoiding "spoiling your thunder" ...heh... if you'll pardon the expression...but I'll tell you this, that dude is very complex or maybe kind of like his life (memories) is a deck of cards dropped "splat" scattered on the floor leaving a broken "stained glass" church window efect into his soul with each card representing a plaque or pane of glass. He's very interesting and, I doubt I'd have had the same connection with him if it had not been first person-present tense. He's very dark and scary, yet, there's room for a lot of compassion for him.)



Anthony wrote: "I, Curmudgeon wrote: "There is quite a complex shift between first-person and third-person throughout the novel, which I hope is coming across reasonably seamlessly, but the technique - whilst I've discovered I quite like it - was fraught with difficulties during both the writing and editing.
.."


Yes, but by switching back and forth, you solved one of my problems with First Person - Present Tense. My problem with the books that I read is that I did not get the same connection with the other characters, supporting cast or villainry that I get with other books that often makes the book fo rme.

First Person Present Tense (FPPT), for me, limits what I'm realistically getting to know about the world around a character. Even Traditional First Person allows the narrator to speculate on, or report what he found out later about what's going on in someone's head or their fears etc. So, in FPPT, I either get information that it's irational I should have, or a very limited view of the periphery in a story.

By switching back and forth, I get those parts I miss when in the FPPT character's head, in 3rd person omnicent. This is how I get to like Jack and the lady police officer.

which brings up another thing... the lady police officer that had her bit of trouble enforcing the law...she was wonderfully written for a female action character. (Sort of Gina Corano with a UK accent). If we don't see more of her... she needs a book and a man (or woman) author who knows how to handle her.

I'm jus' sayin' (She was well done.)


message 71: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Lisa wrote: "Patti wrote: "Anthony wrote: "Okay, question for Ultimately, I write knowing my Mum's likely going to read it... And, no-one wants to go getting the wrong side of their Mum, do they?..."

You think..."


and thank god that wasn't in FPPT!


message 72: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (pattipunkin) | 267 comments I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Patti wrote: "Anthony wrote: "Okay, question for Ultimately, I write knowing my Mum's likely going to read it... And, no-one wants to go getting the wrong side of their Mum, do they?...The Curmudgeon said, "and thank god that wasn't in FPPT! ..."

Had the love scenes been in FPPT, you all might never have made it to Louisiana. You see, folks, The Mudgeon had managed to avoid my first book completely until a visit threatened. (I mean, do real men read anything by a romance publisher?) His loyal wife insisted on reading it aloud to him on the looong drive down here, so he wouldn't have to confess. To retaliate, he insisted she read the love scenes aloud to make her blush.


message 73: by Patricia (last edited Feb 06, 2013 01:55PM) (new)

Patricia (pattipunkin) | 267 comments I, Curmudgeon wrote: "First Person Present Tense (FPPT), for me, limits what I'm realistically getting to know about the world around a character. Even Traditional First Person allows the narrator to speculate on, or report what he found out later about what's going on in someone's head or their fears etc. So, in FPPT, I either get information that it's irational I should have, or a very limited view of the periphery in a story....by switching back and forth, you solved one of my problems..."

First/present is not very popular with readers nor editors, probably because of the problem Hugh described. But it does have its uses. Patricia Cornwall uses it, I think.

I find that writing in deep point of view, I am almost writing in it, writing the characters inner dialogue almost verbatim. Deep POV is a good way to get your reader involved with the characters.


message 74: by Lisa P, My weekend is all booked up! (new)

Lisa P | 2076 comments Mod
Patti wrote: "Had the love scenes been in FPPT, you all might never have made it to Louisiana. You see, folks, The Mudgeon had managed to avoid my first book completely until a visit threatened. (I mean, do real men read anything by a romance publisher?) His loyal wife insisted on reading it aloud to him on the looong drive down here, so he wouldn't have to confess. To retaliate, he insisted she read the love scenes aloud to make her blush."..."

Chuckling even more now :)


message 75: by Anthony (new)

Anthony Bellaleigh (anthonybellaleigh) | 76 comments "the lady police officer that had her bit of trouble enforcing the law..."

yes, have to admit: I like Shaz's intro too...

p.s. strangely I initially wrote the 'Mum' line (above) in FPPT and then swapped it back... Seems to have grabbed people's attention though...

p.p.s. I visualise all my scenes... for me, it seems to be more a question of finding the right camera angles...

p.p.p.s. was a little bit shocked when Mumsy was helping me to iron out wrinkles during editing. It's tricky to listen (even over the phone) when ole-nearest-and-dearest is spouting some of my less than angelic prose so I could find the odd errant word or two... *blushes at the memory*

p.p.p.p.s. (I think I've been hanging round here and reading your stuff for too long, Hugh...) If you're still talking to me after you get past 80%, I have one humble request: please help to... in the words of Merlin (a very good BBC TV series if you haven't seen it)... keep the magic secret... (thanks!)


message 76: by Patricia (new)

Patricia (pattipunkin) | 267 comments I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Lol, made me chuckle Patti! ..."
Yeah, laugh it up... that whole thing was uncomfortable to me too... of course Adam skipped the sex parts. (See, your never too old to deflect things by blaming your Little Brother...or which ever broth isn't in the room at the time...even if it's a virtual room.)"


Or to blame it on the kitty. Or to tease your Little Brother about certain incidents involving the kitty.

Be that as it may, I once feared that writing love scenes would be too revealing of self. Which it probably is. TMI. But I did enjoy writing them after all. But I find that I don't especially enjoy those written by other people. I like my own fantasy.


message 77: by Henry (new)

Henry Brown (machinetrooper) Jim wrote: "Awesome! Totally awesome, dude! Thanks."

OK, I uploaded into the group's photo album--you should be able to see the whole thing there now.


message 78: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (last edited Feb 07, 2013 09:07AM) (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Patti wrote: "Or to blame it on the kitty"

Meow... I mean, "guilty"

Patti wrote: "Or to tease your Little Brother about certain incidents involving the kitty."

"Stop Kitty! Stop Kitty!"

(I've burried the bulk of this way too long response under a spoiler tag. Before you lift it, rest asured that what is written is, at a minimum tongue in cheek. I'll try not to rant like this ... for a few minutes anyway.)

(view spoiler)

Are you sure you want to admit that in writing?


message 79: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Sorry for the rant...


message 80: by Lisa P, My weekend is all booked up! (new)

Lisa P | 2076 comments Mod
I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Sorry for the rant..."

It was quite entertaining :)


message 81: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Lisa wrote: "I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Sorry for the rant..."

It was quite entertaining :)"


I try... had to do something... It's the old proverb: "If blaming they brother and kitty does not work, act like your crazy until you scare everyone away!"


message 82: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Seeley James... you wanna' 'splain dis?

http://seeleyjames.com/2013/02/11/hit...

#3 in Women Slueths... top 100 lists?

I don't know how many times I've bought a Kindle book, looked at it and found out it's so low on the list, the placement number looks more like an international telephone number.


Well done and congratulatoins!


message 83: by Seeley (new)

Seeley James (seeleyjames) | 367 comments Quite an honor, and fleeting too. Bookbub chose The Geneva Decision as the deal of the day last week and ... I have 2,000 new fans! I'm humbled by such a reaction.

However, it was on sale for 99 cents at the time. I have a feeling that 1,900 of them bought it and will forget about it. THAT'S WHY I'M HAVING A GIVEAWAY!

Anyone who sends me the links to two (2) reviews, posted on Goodreads plus the reseller of their choice (Amazon, BN, Kobo) will be entered into the drawing. Ten days from now, my neighbor will throw a dart at the list and the lucky winner will receive a KINDLE FIRE HD! Just send the two links to seeley@seeleyjames.com

Cool, no?

Peace, Seeley

PS: Sorry I've not been active lately. I'm buckling down on two new stories. The serialized version should be out in March, April, May. The next full length Pia Sabel will be out in June. Anyone special you'd like her to kill? :)


message 84: by Eileen (new)

Eileen That's great news and congratulations, Seely!

"Anyone special you want Pia to kill?"

Now that's loaded question...I can think of a few people off the top of my head, lol.

Hang out when you can!


message 85: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Is it too late to get my Mother-in-Law on the list?


message 86: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments SeeleyJ:

We want pictures of the neighbor throwing the dart. Will it be one shot? Or a process of elimination? You could drag it out like the Final Four, since all that madness is approaching.

If necessary, the neighbor could be masked or dressed in an animal costume.

How's that sound? Eh?


message 87: by Seeley (new)

Seeley James (seeleyjames) | 367 comments Thanks everyone. No, not too late Hugh.

Jim, I had planned to video it, but the mask & cape idea is just too good to pass up! :)


message 88: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments Oh YEAH! Video! Absolutely. Like, people would pay to see that one.

There's nothing too low to stoop, when promoting a book. Think of it this way, you could be sitting there in B&N at the world's loneliest card table, right by the front door, books stacked high, earnest look on your face, and what happens?

They walk in. Take one look at you. Heads turn away in disgust. Like it's Smiley sitting there. [You gotta see the trailer to appreciate that one.] A creepy sensation begins in your stomach and nibbles its way up your spine.

- - - OR - - -

It's video, a cape and a mask at eleven! The dart sails through the air. The crowd stills. And YESSS, ladies and gentlemen. We gattah winnah! C'mon down.

Your choice.


message 89: by Eileen (new)

Eileen LOL!!

B&N at the loneliest card table, right by the front door


I can't stop laughing....anyone whose been to B&N has seen that table.


message 90: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments TABLE OF DOOM


message 91: by Eileen (new)

Eileen I try to stop and talk to the people at those tables just for that reason.


message 92: by Mark (new)

Mark Chisnell (markchisnell) | 255 comments Eileen wrote: "I try to stop and talk to the people at those tables just for that reason."

:-)


message 93: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Eileen wrote: "I try to stop and talk to the people at those tables just for that reason."

Then we may have met in person...if only briefly.


message 94: by Jim (last edited Feb 13, 2013 01:24PM) (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments Hugh, you were the one in the mask??


message 95: by Jim (new)

Jim Crocker | 271 comments Looks like we've been found out. Did you read this one in the NY Times?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/13/boo...


message 96: by Eileen (new)

Eileen Good article, over 20 million members on Goodreads, WOW!


message 97: by Eileen (new)

Eileen I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I try to stop and talk to the people at those tables just for that reason."

Then we may have met in person...if only briefly."


You never know....


message 98: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
I had a quetion for Zero Pointabout Tim Fairchild.

I was reading this, and I noticed some Christian, or more correctly biblical symetry. It's possible this exists in my head and not in your book, but, I'm going with the idea that makes me look the least like a lunatic.

Specifically in the Lava Tubes with Elie, Burr and Maria. Now there was some more obvious spiritual stuff going on, but what caught my attention was a statment made by Maria to Burr, "he did nothing to deserve this." (or something like that, I'm going from memory, so it's not an exact quote).

The way it came out reminded me of a sermon I'd once heard about when the Romans Crucified Christ taken from the Gospels. It was about the two thieves who were Crucified with Jesus, where one of them was harassing Jesus ... okay son of god, get us out of this... and the other thief told him to stop, and said almost the same thing. "you and I are thieves, we deserve what's happening to us, he's done nothing to deserve this."

I was wondering how much of these kinds of reflections were intentional, or dictated by the subject matter (the nature of the object they were looking for) or completely by accident if they are really there at all (in which case, I'll head to my therapist)?


message 99: by Sally (last edited Feb 22, 2013 07:28AM) (new)

Sally Pomeroy (sallypomeroy) | 23 comments Can I ask a question from those who write to those who read? In his review of our first book; Butler Did It!, I, Curmudgeon mentioned that it had some of the typical problems of an indie published book. What are the mistakes indies usually make?


message 100: by The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be (last edited Feb 22, 2013 08:31AM) (new)

The Pirate Ghost (Formerly known as the Curmudgeon) (pirateghost) | 5326 comments Mod
Sally wrote: "Can I ask a question from those who write to those who read? In his review of our first book; Butler Did It!, I, Curmudgeon mentioned that it had some of the typical problems of an indie published..."

Sally, I think that's a great question. I'm going to move it to it's own thread in this section of the discussion boards so nobody confuses me with an author or someone with publishing experience. I have years and tomes of reading experience, not so much in the writing/publishing experience. That said, I'm confident that I know what I like, what I think should be and what I have as an opinion. (The operative word there bing that single sylible, single letter word "I" (and in possessive form as "my").

I'll post a link here. It'll be the "Questions from those who write to those who read" thread.

Thanks to the "Edit Post" thread, here's the link

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


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