Brain Pain discussion
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Infinite Jest
Infinite Jest - Spine 2012
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Discussion - Week Eight - Infinite Jest - Page 698 - 808
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After the pages starting 692 where the Wallacian narrator gives his two cents on suicide, depression, and Kate Gompert, and is after all, for those of us ghouls, Wallace’s eventual suicide note, we again get a narrative of Kate.I am really taken by Kate now. I’ve noticed for the first 800 pages, ¾ of a book,an inch, I’ve began to lose interest in any plot, i.e. the AFR and ONAN trying to get the master tape, and really enjoy the secondary characters as they pop in and out. I look foward to about two dozen of them, mostly at Ennet.
I didn’t understand Kate on pages 68-78 though it was pretty riveting. Now she seems back for a while seeming to be able to “move forward without any sort of conscious moving-forward-type volitions.” I can relate to that.
She’s a disembodied voice to me, a voice crying for obliteration, to be stomped out, either by her or the world.
On page 700 and then 714 the red-coated “apparition” is tailing Kate (and Ruth). None other than P.T. the purse-snatcher (that killer of animals). So on page 774, my eyes perk up again when it appears Kate has entered a bar and is talking with Marathe! I found this dialogue to be absolutely hilarious and at the same time depressing. She’s a hoot, Kate is. She came in to vomit after the mugging. She’s having like the second drink in her life and feels good. She feels “improved.” It’s silly to worry about drinking when before the mugging, she was thinking of how to kill herself. She feels “decent.” “Feeling No Pain.” Kahlua and milk. Her language is so damn funny, I was hooting. This while Marathe talks of his wife with no skull. Then she questions his “feel good” story. At this point, I’m rolling on the floor. It feels so good after so much detoxing. And then I read the last page of Kate (?)on 782.
Did Kate go to view The Entertainment with “Ray?” What an ending to a character I rather liked.
The last section with Molly Notkin Ph.D to pretty much explain Madam Psychosis with Tine was really good passage. As I said, I am thinking narrative is no longer important to me. I accept the novel as it is. An Infinite Jest. A joke on the reader expecting to get it. Many voices (heads, brains, consciousnesses, point of views, etc.). But now—ha ha—all is explained. The ultimate unreliable narrator. Re: MP's mother: She kills herself on two separate days! This novel just kills me.
I lied. I do wish I could understand a couple of things. Anybody know or think they know—
1. Who edited IJ (IV and V)? Wouldn’t JOI, if himself edited it, have to view it?
2. Did The Moms and John Wayne have a sexual relationship? Are they both members of AFR?
3. Is Pemulus blackmailing The Moms?
Mod
It is nice to see Kate getting out into the world more, isn't it? I loved how she's discovered a new drug in the form of Kahlua and milk. After all that Bob Hope and psychotic depression, turns out she just needed a drink! Of course, given Wallace's infinite capacity for jest, I wondered if the unfortunate meeting between her head and the lamp post might have played a part in her sudden happiness in the form of some kind of post-concussion euphoria. Based on Kate's being insulted about being compared to Marathe's deformed wife, I would guess he couldn't talk her into watching The Entertainment. However, if he continued to buy her drinks, maybe...
Molly Notkin did do a pretty expedient job of filling in a lot of plot details (as did Joelle's memories of thanksgiving at the Incandenza's). Another titillating piece of semi-information about Joelle's deformity question. I keep wondering if the "is she or isn't she deformed" question is a Hitchcockian macguffin. BTW, what did you think of Notkin's description (788) of Infinite Jest (V or VI) is that it features Madame Psychosis as some kind of archetypal death figure, sitting naked, corporeally gorgeous, ravishing, hugely pregnant ... that Death is always female, and that the female is always maternal. I.e. that the woman who kills you is always your next life's mother. Besides this basic "cycle of life" idea, it brought to mind Pemulis trying to help "Booger" Doucette understand Watson's Energy survey class, and DT-annulation, temporal flux, fusion, etc. (569-574) The Entertainment, then, becomes the video that gives you the secret to existence, and therein lies the ultimate pleasure - to finally "know" what life is all about. The relief that "knowing" would bring would make it worth giving up one's life just to finally be able to stop asking the one and only question of human existence. Or something like that...
Questions
1. I thought the same thing. Having edited films before, the answer I would give is that when you're putting a movie together, you're really seeing it in pieces and by the time you finish, you can't really see the movie as a whole the way a viewer would. Instead, you tend to watch for your edits and think "I should have changed this, that could have been longer, oooh! I hope no one catches that mistake" and so on. So maybe he was immunized against his own creation;
2. At a minimum, they were into some kinky cosplay. As for AFR, a hint is given that Wayne has a connection when Struck includes a reference to "Faire un Bernard Wayne," ... Disastrously Struck blithely transposes this stuff too, with not even a miniature appliance-size bulb flickering anywhere over his head. (Endnote 304, p.1060)
3. Yes, but only to avoid a urine test and to hopefully ensure his place at the Whataburger. But as we discover at the end of this section, Mrs. Inc's balls are much bigger and brassier than Pemulis'.
Jim,I have to say, it’s difficult to type this stuff up fast. Excuse any typos. But it’s freakout time with this novel as the formerly Euclidean parallel lines now start to intersect…And we readers continue to make connections even as Wallace continues to withhold or hide valuable information. So fun! But I notice some of the characters are leaving the stage or simply terminated.
Re: Kate. Let me look up the head bashing again. Looking forward to seeing her again but I thought the end of the conversation with Remy was pretty ominous. Terrorists like Marathe doesn’t care about human life like you or I do. They’re evildoers. I am not sure but I don’t think she says much prior to the bar scene. Things were more in her head. Hearing her language was just so funny to me. She was actually astonished. I am continually reminded that even thought this is difficult book about the solipsistic SELF and is more or less meta-fiction, Wallace can sometimes create some brilliant soliloquies and dialogues.
I suppose something not so funny about this -- assuming he buys Kate more drinks-- She will be a loud drunk and need to go back to Ennet House. Unless she’s watched the Entertainment and is now out of her misery.
Her dialogue reminds me of another short passage I like page on 351 The Irish guy “E” giving testimony on his bowel movement. The turd that had a “pulse.” All the White Flaggers following all over themselves laughing. It’s only about ½ page. A gem.
Re: Molly. The thing is about Notkin is how did she get info? Hearsay from Joelle. Made it up. Joelle’s already made it clear—deformed is the same as beautiful. I can’t imagine Wallace answering the “is she or isn’t she” question.
Yes, page 788. Molly says “her understanding” is the movie features MP as “archetypal figure Death.” I suppose the film “explains” families and mothers in this book and cycles, secret of existence, etc.—kind of like the ending to 2001—with the astronaut privy to a vision of the Star Child. The Freudian mind (or is it Jung?) mind can get carried away with all of this. I think Wallace is fucking with the reader who demands/seeks answers from a novel. What’s the point of that the author might ask? Have you read Moby Dick because it’s about some guy fishing for a whale and the whale wins? It’s the act of reading Moby Dick that’s important not the fish story. This question is really one that the reader has to decide is important. I know very few who’ve read Moby Dick, but they “know” the story. They even claim to have read the book in high school. But they didn’t… It’s fitting that film student Molly gives the interpretations. Just as JOI’s films were unwatchable and viewer-Unfriendly (somebody said. Joelle?), the damn novel IJ is reader-unfriendly. I am reading some mystery novels as I read this book for a kind of balance.
Re: Editing. Okay, I guess that’s true. The whole vs. the parts. Still it boggles the mind, all these theories on the movie yet it can’t be watched without losing the “subjects’ who view it. Now the theory that JOI was immunized against his creation is a good one. Perhaps the film does not affect him. Still, this question is a logical one. Now I’m thinking of JOI as the creator god of the bible…But what’s his motivation. We could ask the same of God…
Another question—who’s disseminating these flicks? Orin? Or even JOI?
Re: Wayne and the Moms—kinky foreplay. You said it. It’s some kind of role reversal. Wayne is Orin; The Moms is Joelle. Joelle’s ‘own personal daddy” jealous of Orin. Joelle being creeped out by the Moms. Joelle’s mom in the garbage disposal. JOI “taking” Joelle away from Orin. The Moms, the original turd, and Hal. Who’s Hal’s mother anyway? Orin constantly seeking single mothers for his sex “subjects.” Ohhh—I scream—it’s back to the womb!
Re: Wayne. That’s a hell of footnote. I will have to reread. I am too lazy with some of these. It's useful to go back to page 16, the beginning which may be the end. Wayne and Gately help Hal dig up JOI's head.
Re: Pemulis. We should mention, speaking of endnotes, it’s a pretty brilliant way to dispose of a character. In a footnote.
But what do you make of Nwangi saying “she sends you her regards” in answer to Pemulis’ veiled threat.
Mod
I thinks it's a very ladylike way to say "go fuck yourself, blackmail boy!"
It's all pretty amazing don't you think? The book keeps getting denser and deeper and funnier and seriouser and crazier and er-ier... where's it all going to end? I'm deep into Gately's experiences in the trauma wing right now and I still don't know what to expect from moment to moment.
In another group, someone was discussing the Endnotes and asked, "If you skipped note 304, would it be bad for the reader?" At this point, I'd say you can't really skip anything since as you rightly observed, he packs useful information into small clever notes that utilize every centimeter of available space with mind-boggling efficiency (apologies to J.O.I., note 24 p.991).
BTW, I'm really glad you're enjoying this reread. There seems to be something in the air right now and IJ is being read very widely for whatever reason - coincidence? psychic poltergeist? Mayan prophecy? - who can say. The important thing is that many people are enjoying a great piece of literature, so three cheers for the dead guy!!
1. Wow. but does that mean he doesn't have anything on her? She's the dean and she's wearing a cheerleaders gear with Wayne in football gear. He sees this. WTF? BTW, why does she seem to dislike Michael so much? Bad influence on Hal?2.yes, it's freaking me out. Like I tried to say, it's the reading experience that's so great. Not trying to figure out what it all means (thought that's fun too) but just reveling in the delicious language. The sentences. But when one comes to end with so many loose threads, almost a panic sets in.
3. Yes, re note 304. But it's hard to read the small print. On kindle, I could increase the size? right? I'm sixty and my eyes are suffering... I like the notes about drugs. they're easier, but alas, kind of useless. I guess that's part of the joke on the reader.
4. It's like I didn't ever read it before. But yet I seem to understand the text better as well as enjoy. It's possible the new bio might have got some interested. But like i say--I don't know a single person who's read the book. I guess I need to get out more. I miss it when people used to read books on the muni and you could see the book--say Crime and Punishment--and fanticize about approaching them. "Whatdya reading?"
Mod
What he has is only an eye-witness account of cosplay-interruptus (552-3). Mrs. Inc's reputation as a loose slot is already a known issue amongst her sons. At worse, it would just be another notch in her family's pre-existing opinion of her. World-class narcissist that she is, anyone who has more influence on her son is an automatic rival, and Pemulis is Hal's drug-buddy, and so, on her shit list. BTW, a funny scene with Mario in her office later (764) Some of the prints in the deep shag he can see are shoes and some are different, almost like knuckles. (Wayne's 3-point stance) and (766) A couple odd long crinkly paper strips of bright red hung over the side of the wastebasket, which was normally totally empty and clean. (her homemade pom-poms).
The freakout is part of the thrill, isn't it? It's a strange, over the cliff, down the rabbit hole, WTF is going on feeling, and I think that's a big component of the novel's success - the "feeling" of the reading.
The text size is a challenge at times. I've considered looking for one of those rectangular magnifying glasses that my grandfather used to use when he read the paper.
Here's an interesting flowchart put out by GR. It suggests that reading IJ is entry-level requirement for being one of the cool kids. You can click on the image to magnify it.
http://photo.goodreads.com/misc/13540...
Hey, I'm not a hipster but I've read most of those books. A lot of those Brooklyn literary studs. I feel cool. Maybe I'll grow a soul patch and hang out on Valencia Street. if only I could find somebody to talk about IJ with. i think, alas, it will never really be read by most, but only part of some kind of hipster's possering.OK. I buy your explanation of being non-blackmailable.
Although it did appear to get Mike--but Hal really--a thirty day period to detox.
that section of dialogue between the Moms and Mario was heartbreaking. he kept saying "Hey Moms?"
and she would explain sadness using words he can't even begin to understand or translate to "inner" states.
another part of the kate/Remy dialogue that was sad/hilarious is that Remy starts to tell a story about "feeling so bad and saving a life" but she keeps interupting and interjecting her feelings at the "bastards, dicks," and then Remy disappoints her in the narrative (like wallace to his readers!), she gets mad at him, and argues with him. he goes from nice to "asshole, shit-puddle, Swisshead."
I have both the Kindle version and a used paper copy. The Kindle does allow you to read the footnotes in decent-sized print. At one level of footnote, it is very handy, as clicking on on the footnote takes you directly to the note, and clicking "back" takes you back to the right part of the text. It gets trickier when the footnotes have sub-footnotes, like a, b, c. I like having the text for those, and also so I can tell (when a footnote seems to go on forever) that it will eventually end.
I couldn't have read this book without the assistance of a Kindle!
Mod
One way to look at the longer Endnotes is as extra chapters. This nesting of information is similar to what you find in mathematical formulas and nested statements in software programs. It's a very different way to tell a story, isn't it? How far are you in the book? What are you thinking so far?
Mod
and she would explain sadness using words he can't even begin to understand or translate to "inner" states...."
Mario is turning out to be one of the most sympathetic characters in the book. A developmentally disabled Jimminy Cricket to serve the part of a completely loving conscience amidst all these people with their private dramas walking all over each other. Very sweet.
As far as Pemulis goes, yes, he got a temporary pass on the pee test, but once the youngsters dropped a dime on him, it was all over. His drug dealing and pee selling businesses were a threat to the Academy's accreditation, so it was bye bye Micky, say hello to your da.
Jim wrote: "Phil wrote: "that section of dialogue between the Moms and Mario was heartbreaking. he kept saying "Hey Moms?"and she would explain sadness using words he can't even begin to understand or transla..."
Re: Mario
Hate to gush again, but I’m not very critical, I just love the passage on page 701:
“Coach Schtitt and Mario tear-ass downhill on W. Commonwealth…”
After reading various pages with Schtitt/Mario, god, this one is one of is the greatest.
I suppose as readers we should be careful of what might be called the “Mario-trap.” That is, who is Mario exactly? How damaged is he? I'm very confused about just who he is.
As I recall, Orin never talks about him. Hal has conversations with him. He’s Schtitt’s buddy. Assistant director to Himself. I recall Joelle was horrified by him. the image of him towering over the courts filming is improbable yet striking and perfect.
I often wonder just what does he really look like? How does he really sound? Why is it that I like—even love—him? He’s a freak, let’s face it. I feel there’s a joke going on about so-called political correctness towards people of “something-something-challenged.” Another thing: Is Mario the best character in the book? He’s uncynical certainly which the narrator implies is a good thing, and Hal admires. And yet he can’t be cynical. There’s another part, can’t find it now where he goes down to Ennet house. I recall him thinking something like they use the word “god” without being cynical (another paradox, since he can’t be cynical. Maybe he said something about that the Ennet folks don’t laugh when they utter the word. Somebody help) Anyway, here’s my point. Is he so good because he’s not human? Is this book saying only Mario can be ethical? Isn’t that a joke?
I think this is a crucial question in the novel. Who is Mario?
Does anybody else “love” Mario or have a thought on this. He’s an unforgettable character. Does anybody not like him?
Mod
This passage tells a lot about his arrival, appearance, and development and also about the presence of Charles Tavis who may have been on-site just the right amount of months to be the papa...
Part of the reason we love Mario is because he has the kind of trust and love of a young child before they understand what a lie is or discover that the people they love are capable of deceit or mockery or dishonesty. It's so sweet you kind of want to throttle anyone who does him wrong.
I love his attachment to Madame Psychosis's radio show. He finds a pleasure in her voice that is as comforting and addictive as her persona in the samizdat.
I'm really enjoying how the plot is coming together and even still also being expansive. I like how Hal's quest to an NA meeting turns out to be just as misdirected as the reader's own experience with Wallace's novel. (Although from past experience these types of meetings are always on the subbasement of some outpatient facility where you have to factor in at least ten minutes just to figure out where the meeting is after decoding a wall map and only down the left wing's staircase and only after you signed in at the front desk because it's after hours, and you had better hope someone put up a sign to point you to the correct room on said subbasement)I read footnote 304 as part of footnote 45 ("See note 304 sub.") since I wanted context. And Wallace I figured was inviting me to go that direction. I'm glad I did or I think this week's reading (already footnote heavy without 304) would take me to next week.
I was heavily reminded of Ms .45 during the Blood Sisters section.
Jim, I loved the flow chart. It seems like IJ is required reading these days. Also, did you set this schedule up reading IJ at the end of the year as a nice transition to The Year of Reading Proust? Because I can see that.
Mod
The Proust group came together long after the Brain Pain schedule, so that's just a serendipitous bonus. Will be interesting to spend a year with Proust after a season with Wallace.
The teddy bear encounter group was pretty creepy fun wasn't it? Grown man weeping for his Inner Infant's needs with Hal spitting in a cup while on an expedition to see if he is suffering from a need. Infinite Jest In-deed!
Well, it's Friday evening and I just finished the week 8 reading, finally. It is an exciting section. I'm still having some trouble keeping some of the names straight. Could someone please remind me who Molly Notkin is and how she came into the story? Like Phil, I'm wondering how she knew all this about Joelle. Phil refers to her as a "film student," but I'm still having trouble placing her.
Casceil,Go back to page 227. this is when Joelle made her plan to go out with Too Much Fun. Molly Notkin is having a party in celebration of passing her oral exams.
This is Joelle and Orin's old house passed on the Molly.
I get the idea that Molly pretty much made up everything,since it sounds mostly plausable. I suppose Joelle could have told her most of this. i don't remember her after that.
Begins: 14 NOVEMBER YEAR OF THE DEPEND ADULT UNDERGARMENT Ms. Ruth van Cleve’s first day off new residents’ three-day House Restriction.
Kate Gompert walks home with Ms. R.v.C. Meanwhile, over at E.T.A., Hal chills with the gals. Joelle catches a CA meeting at St. Elizabeth’s. Blood Sister plays out its plot (you just know some indie filmmakers have tried to make their version of this). Kate Gompert has a violet encounter with a light post. Master of disguise and recent Ennet House-rejectee Randy Lenz out-surveilles his Orientoid-surveillers. Poor Tony Krause may have met his match in high-heeled sprinting. Les A.F.R. commence avec the viewing of the cartridges des frères Antitoi (présentement décédé) on a consumer TP, perhaps unaware of the necessity of cinq cent quatre-vingts cinq r.p.m. for the detection of le cartridge Master – Quel dommage!! Joelle dreams of Doctor Don. Desjardins and Joubet take one for the team and the technical engineer of radio removes his digits in Broullîme’s field-test. Lenz cops the Chinkette bags and makes his escape. Marathe cools his (w)heels in the Ennet House living room. Endnote 304, merde*! (*although footnote 5 was pretty funny – Amway) Marathe is warned about the pro - jection. Joelle scrubs the 5-Woman’s and revisits the spirit of Thanksgiving past. Marathe commences his intake interview with the woman of authority. Mario captures some candid footage of LaMont Chu, then interfaces with The Moms re: detecting sadness. Hal and Mario interface late night in their dorm room re: types and subtypes of liars. Marathe tries to pick up Kate Gompert in Ryle’s Inman Square Club of Jazz, but despite the effectiveness of the Kahlua and milk, Rémy don’t got game to get Gompert. Late night dorm room (cont’d) Hal confesses his drug habits to Mario who, naturellement, absolves him completely. Pemulis discusses needs and Hope with Hal. Johnette meets a salivating young ETA lad whom was looking for a meeting. Early P.M. in the locker room, Pemulis reveals the truth about truth for a weepy Postal Weight. M.I.T. A.B.D.-Ph.D. Molly Notkins spills all available guts re: Madame Psychosis to R. Tine’s high-watt questions. Pemulis gets the shoe. Hal attends a needs meeting.
The plot thickens quite a bit in this week's reading. Lots of back story on the Incandenza family from Joelle and Molly Notkins. Some serious crossover interfacing is taking place between ETA, Ennet House, and the AFR (with U.S.O.U.S. not far behind). Also appears to be a bit of poltergeist activity starting at ETA. Is it Himself doing a King Hamlet-type thing? Or maybe Clipperton and his Red-room (redrum)?
To avoid spoilers, please restrict your comments to page 698 – 808 (and the earlier pages).