Infinite Winter of Our Discontent: December Thoughts

[Patty, free birdeaucrat]

Random comment: Just when you think it can't possibly get any weirder, the guru makes his entrance...

[Les]

Well, thank you Patty, but I like to consider myself just a regular person. You know, I turn my books one page at a time.

What? Oh, you were not referring to my last two comments? Nevermind.

[Carly]

Ha! Patty's comment was brilliantly funny after yours, Les. I was actually wondering the other day if there was an audio book for IJ and, if so, who the hero/lunatic is who would undertake that narrator role. Anyway, I'm not an audio book person but it might be nice to go back and forth between reading and audio to break IJ up a bit. Who knows?

[Dan, deadpan man]

Here's a link to an interview w/the reader of the IJ audiobook:

http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2012/07/...

Apparently, Hachette Audio is also going to eventually be putting out the end notes as a separate recording at some point.

[Les]

Thanks Dan! I could spend a few minutes and research these things. That is excellent news. The most common comment on Audible regarding the book was that it was a shame and not truly unabridged (and much worse) without the footnotes. There is something to those points.

[Les]

Exactly my thoughts, Carly! I have become an audiobook person as of late due to some amazing readers. When you find a good reader some books open up to you as they may not have before. The Heart of Darkness and Moby Dick are two wonderful examples. They have quickly become books I will return to for the rest of my life.

[Dan, deadpan man]

Oh no worries, I think I spend more time reading about DFW than most people so when I saw these posts I knew exactly where to find it.

I'm a big fan of audiobooks for my commutes and road trips. I've not tried to combine it with exercise (largely from a lack of exercising).

Were the commenters on Audible saying that it was not truly unabridged because of the lack of end notes or because other things were omitted?

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

Well, dang.... Here I thought throwing out the Québécois comment might stir up some controversy... but I must admit to feeling a bit of a milquetoast here in that I agreed with what everyone said.

There are times that I dig reading the spare prose of a Raymond Carver story (even if he got a bit of help from Gordon Lish) and other times a gargantuan, sprawling novel like this is like a good long hike.

A particular pet peeve of mine are "Goodreads" threads like "Jack Ass Kerouac" or "Worse Book Ever? (about The Great Gatsby) that drive me nuts. Knowing the kind of love/hate DFW can stir I was very happy to hear a vote (round of applause) for the relevance of the Québécois s**t.

One BIG theme of this book seems to me to be the ennui of feeling of characters feeling disconnected from anything greater in the world and the deeper, scarier reality of our connections. (And the implications (responsibilities) that come with those. (connections, that is.))

And Les: I've been considering the audiobook of this for a while, just to see how that changes the experience.

The Marathe/Steeply discussion on "love" vs. "attachment" (107-108) seems another significant theme in this book. "Make amusement all you wish. But choose with care. You are what you love."

"What if sometimes there is no choice about what to love? What if the temple comes to Mohammed? what if you just love? without deciding? You just do: you see her and in that instant are lost to sober account-keeping and cannot choose but to love?"

[Les]

Dan, as far as I could tell the lack of foot/endnotes was enough to damn the whole thing.

Hugh, Carly, and Dan that is actually validating regarding audiobooks. I have heard and read numerous comments about how that is cheating, not really reading, etc., I find the whole thing kind of a joke, but perhaps I just have not been convinced of a good argument?

I need to catch up before I can say anything relevant about the actual book . . .

[Sandra]

@Patty, yeah, what the hell is up with the guru?

@Les, yeah, I've had the discussion on other goodreads groups about audiobooks and e-readers... I've never listened to an audiobook before (and truthfully, always felt like it was somehow cheating). And I now realize that's just crazy and I intend to see what my library in town has available. It seems like it would be completely enjoyable, as obsessed with books as I am, to have somebody read to me as I perform mundane household chores. And, perhaps, an easier way to be exposed to some of the more difficult books such as Moby Dick or Ulysses. And I just got an e-reader for my birthday (yay) and the first 2 books I bought are Infinite Jest and To the Lighthouse which I plan on reading with Jim's Brain Pain group!

@Hugh, I'm not too far along in the book yet where the Quebecois s**t has become an issue, BUT I can say that was THE main reason my first attempt at this book was a fail. I was like Wheelchair assassins? WTF?

[Patty, free birdeaucrat]

Hugh wrote: "One BIG theme of this book seems to me to be the ennui of feeling of characters feeling disconnected from anything greater in the world and the deeper, scarier reality of our connections. (And the implications (responsibilities) that come with those. (connections, that is.)
..."

Even the plagerism in ft 304, the speculation that plagerists plagerize because they want to feel reassured/validated that the ground they are covering has been covered before. (ie, they are not isolated and exposed and alone on that path of ideas).

[Jim]

Dan wrote: "Here's a link to an interview w/the reader of the IJ audiobook:

http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2012/07/...

Apparently, Hachette Audio is also going to eventual..."

The performer's answer to question 5 pretty much damns the whole enterprise. A Significant amount of information And a Significant amount of the narrative is located in the endnotes. If you leave them out, the novel is severely abridged and you are not reading the book that Wallace wrote.

[Michael, the Olddad]

Hugh wrote: "One BIG theme of this book seems to me to be the ennui of feeling of characters feeling disconnected from anything greater in the world and the deeper, scarier reality of our connections. (And the implications (responsibilities) that come with those. (connections, that is.)..."

I think you are on to something central here, Hugh; the counterpoint to this thematic Isolation being the thematic Addiction we have discussed before, individuals “giving themselves away” to another thing in order to forge such a connection.

(In the Ennet House, this would be termed a "Boundary Issue". LOL)

I was struck by the catalog of abusable escapes in the excellent section (pg. 200 – 210) on “facts learned from spending a little time around a substance recovery halfway facility” (e.g. “That God — unless you're Charlton Heston, or unhinged, or both — speaks and acts entirely through the vehicle of human beings, if there is a God”),

...that gambling can be an abusable escape, too, and work, shopping, and shoplifting, and sex, and abstention, and masturbation, and food, and exercise, and meditation/prayer...”

This catalog is then continued into footnote #70, e.g.

“...12-Step thought, yoga, reading, politics, gum-chewing, crossword puzzles, solitaire, romantic intrigue, charity work, political activism, N.R.A. membership, music, art, cleaning, plastic surgery, cartridge-viewing even at normal distances, the loyalty of a fine dog, religious zeal, relentless helpfulness, relentless other-folks'-moral-inventory-taking, the development of hardline schools of 12-Step thought, ad darn near infinitum, including 12-Step fellowships themselves...”

DFW then takes this to a solipsistic extreme in footnote #70 and imagines the bare, nude, unfurnished existence of one “too advanced to stomach the thought of the potential emotional escape of doing anything whatsoever, completely motion- and escape-less...”

The author seems to be describing Boundary Issues of his own, n’est pas?
mm

[Mala]

Jim wrote: "Hugh wrote: ""...All that Québécois s**t..."

This may be one of those conversations best left when folks have finished the entire book, but knowing that some may find themselves wandering the dens..."

What a wonderful analysis! My Gr friend MJ thinks IJ is four hundred pages too long (and he is someone whose opinion I respect), I wonder what he'll make out of your & Hugh's thoughts here!
I'm reading Infinite Jest with another group (planning to finish it in December itself). Joined this group just so I could get notifications & keep coming back here :-)

[Mala]

Sandra wrote: "Good thing I'm reading this with you brainiacs to point out all this stuff that sails right over my head. Even concave and convex are calculus concepts.

Now in regards to why I found the video-pho..."

Thanks for sharing this. I'll enjoy that videophone part more now!

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

Any thoughts on the significance of the U.S.S. Millicent Kent-and-Mario scene? Parody of a teenage romance? Comic interlude? Outside of the demonstrating Mario's savant-like knowledge of film equipment (the missing tripod), the significance of this scene continues to escape me.

[Jim]

Hugh wrote: "Any thoughts on the significance of the U.S.S. Millicent Kent-and-Mario scene? Parody of a teenage romance? Comic interlude? Outside of the demonstrating Mario's savant-like knowledge of film equip..."

I'd probably vote "comic interlude". Although I was pretty nervous for Mario. With all of his physical challenges, what if she got in his pants and screamed or laughed or worse? Would have been pretty traumatic.

I'd have to re-read it, but this scene might make the list of scenes that could have been cut if necessary. On the other hand, later on in the book, objects start moving around without explanation, so maybe the tripod in the woods is a foreshadowing of that.

[Pavel]

Hugh wrote: "Any thoughts on the significance of the U.S.S. Millicent Kent-and-Mario scene? Parody of a teenage romance? Comic interlude? Outside of the demonstrating Mario's savant-like knowledge of film equip..."

I'm going to go with the cute way to discover an unexplained tripod in a random place.

[Elizabeth, bubbles]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that E.T.A. is named after Enfield? J.O.I. certainly had more creative charisma than it takes to create a 'here's where we are on the map' brand name.

[Sandra]

I'm reading this on an e-reader and although it makes it easier to deal with the endnotes and you don't have to deal with multiple book marks and the sheer mass of the book itself, it is a real pain to try to go back and locate a prior passage or what happened on what date, etc... So I can't supply you with page numbers or any of that. Not that they would match up with the physical copy anyway...

One thing that struck me, so far, was the "singleness of purpose" compare and contrast of the athlete v. the drug addict. Just the whole sole pursuit of something, for whatever reason, at the detriment of something else (Uh the rest of your life!). Such as the athlete really doesn't have much time for a "real" life because of the constant training, repetitive nature of practice, competition, recuperation... And the drug addict has no life because of the repetitive nature of procuring the drug, taking the drug, recuperating from the drug, coming up with more money to once again procure the drug.... In particular was the passage of the video of Hal practicing his serve over and over, working towards this one particular goal, getting up early in the morning, etc... and Joelle deciding to have "too much fun" until it killed her, getting the drug, buying the cigar, throwing the cigar away... It just struck me that the compulsive behavior was basically the same, one rewarded by society, the other vilified.

The whole section on AA and the half-way house was spot on and it's completely apparent that the author knew AA and "got it". I should know, though I'm not a member of AA, I have a close family member who is and I know all the slogans and "it works if you work it". The slogans ARE cliché and trite, whatever, but try to DO them... that's another story all together. Keeping it simple is not so simple.

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

Elizabeth:
Yes. It's just "off" enough that it's almost disorienting. As the Wiki entry on the town of Enfield, Mass. puts it:

Much of the novel Infinite Jest takes place in a city called Enfield, Mass., but geographic clues make clear that this is not a reference to the actual Enfield, and is instead a fictional stand-in for Brighton. The Enfield Tennis Academy and Ennet House, major locations in the novel, are located there [Brighton].

Sandra:
I think you're right about the linkages between athleticism and addiciton. In the scene where the older boys are giving the younger ones training/advice on playing, Troeltsch says:
Just do it. Forget about is there a point, of course there's no point. The point of repetition is there is no point. Wait until it soaks into the hardware and then see the way this frees up your head... You start thinking a whole different way now, playing. The court might as well be inside you.

Similarly, the ritual and repetition of an addict has that way of "getting inside" and soaking "into the hadware", though on a chemical level it no longer "frees up your head" but dominates it. The bottle/needle/pipe "might as well be inside you."

[Robert]

During this long period of alternating sections on ETA and the halfway way house, I get that achievement in tennis and sobriety seems I'd characterized of requiring focus, but it is hard to tell that focus from addiction itself. The search for a healthier distraction. But the problem arises, and which I will want to see something about in the post page 470 section, is Out There as they say at Enfield. Hal clearly fails that (but the reason may not be tennis ... ) at the beginning. Will Gately get it out?

[Michael, the Olddad]

The Joelle sections - the Madam Psychosis radio show, and her walk from Beacon Hill through the Back Bay to her own personal Last Party – stand up pretty well on second reading.

Madam P. says on her radio show “Medusas and odalisques both: Come find common ground.”

Joelle, a.k.a. Madam P., a.k.a. The Prettiest Girl of All Time (PGOAT), is either stunningly, crippling beautiful to behold, or now deformed by a targeted acid attack or a propeller accident. My bet is that, as the lead character in the Entertainment, the former is still the case. Though who knows, what with the veil and all.

I do read, however, in the long sections describing her state of mind, that her own personal cage of addiction (“powerless over this cage, this unfree show, weeping…) is not unlike two of JIO’s better films:

Cage III — Free Show
The Medusa v. the Odalisque

We find this quote on pg. 20, “How many sub-rosa twins are there, out there, really? What if heredity, instead of linear, is branching? What if it's not arousal that's so finitely circumscribed? What if in fact there were ever only like two really distinct individual people walking around back there in history's mist? That all difference descends from this difference? The whole and the partial. The damaged and the intact. The deformed and the paralyzingly beautiful. The insane and the attendant. The hidden and the blindingly open. The performer and the audience. No Zen-type One, always rather Two, one upside-down in a convex lens.”
mm

[Jim]

Michael wrote: "The Joelle sections - the Madam Psychosis radio show, and her walk from Beacon Hill through the Back Bay to her own personal Last Party – stand up pretty well on second reading.

Madam P. says on h..."

Do you have any thoughts on the connection with Greek philosophy and the concept of metempsychosis - or transmigration of the soul/reincarnation? Later descriptions of The Entertainment hint at a connection with cycles of life and death and rebirth (also connected with Annular fusion in the great concavity) and the idea that these cycles are controlled by women. And further, Hal and his brothers' observation that The Moms always appears to occupy the center of any room she's in, and so at the center of everything. Lots of big thoughts to think throughout this book, no?

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

Michael wrote: "I do read, however, in the long sections describing her state of mind, that her own personal cage of addiction (“powerless over this cage, this unfree show, weeping…) is not unlike two of JIO’s better films:

Cage III — Free Show."

Michael: great catch on "case, this unfree show" and "Cage III - Free Show"; I totally missed that. I've always been intrigued at how DFW leaves that mystery open ("has she or has she not been deformed in the acid attack?") -- and that despite either outcome, we accept her as The PGOAT (at least I did.) [And we should come back to that whole "Veiling" theme (another Pynchonian features of the story.]

[Michael, the Olddad]

Hugh wrote: "("has she or has she not been deformed in the acid attack?")..."

He also leaves "acid" ambiguous here too - could refer to LSD-25 or even the dreaded "acid on acid", DMZ.

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

Jim wrote: "Michael wrote: "The Joelle sections - the Madam Psychosis radio show, and her walk from Beacon Hill through the Back Bay to her own personal Last Party – stand up pretty well on second reading.

Ma..."

Jim: And to spin this out even broader, Metempsychosis is an important theme of Joyce's Ulysses as this Wiki-entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metempsy...) points out. I remember the first time I encountered it, feeling Joyce had imbued it with all of its religious/spiritual mystery, but when I encountered it in IJ, it seemed as if DTW was up to something else with Madame Psychosis (or perhaps something just slightly askew).

[Michael, the Olddad]

Jim wrote: "Do you have any thoughts on the connection with Greek philosophy and the concept of metempsychosis ..."

I am trying to locate the reference, but I do know off the top of my head that the uber-lovely Madam P. is cast by JOI as Death in many of his films. I also did note that Madam P. spent her radio hour reading the Union of the Hideously and Improbably Deformed's "circular", which I found noteworthy. ;)

I also did want to say I really enjoyed "the five minutes of dead air Madame Psychosis's contract stipulates gets to precede her show". Cute, DFW little details.
mm

[Michael, the Olddad]

Here is a reference [spoiler alert]

"Molly Notkin tells the U.S.O.U.S. operatives that her understanding of the après-garde Auteur J. O. Incandenza's lethally entertaining Infinite Jest (V or VI) is that it features Madame Psychosis as some kind of maternal instantiation of the archetypal figure Death, sitting naked, corporeally gorgeous, ravishing, hugely pregnant, her hideously deformed face either veiled..."

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

Since we've been at this hike for a few weeks now -- and everyone is setting his/her own pace -- I thought I'd give a general shout out and see how everyone is doing.

First-timers: is the hike getting any easier, the forest any brighter?

Repeat-jesters: are you encountering plotlines/details that your missed on the first/earlier read(s)?

(And Michael: thanks for being our living, breathing compendium of all things IJ These are great insights. (And was that really a spoiler?))

[Jerry]

Michael wrote: "Here is a reference [spoiler alert]

"Molly Notkin tells the U.S.O.U.S. operatives that her understanding of the après-garde Auteur J. O. Incandenza's lethally entertaining Infinite Jest (V or VI) ..."

Yes! Never heard the metempsychosiS thing, as i didnt study much philosophy in school, but i love the play on words and how it fits... Dont have my I J copy with me but there is something in this passage orjust following w/r/t the woman who kills you is your mext lifes mother(???)

[Jerry]

Jerry wrote: "Michael wrote: "Here is a reference [spoiler alert]

"Molly Notkin tells the U.S.O.U.S. operatives that her understanding of the après-garde Auteur J. O. Incandenza's lethally entertaining Infinite..."

And the 2 times she tells Don G. ... Not yet, and... Wait

[Jim]

Jerry wrote: "Yes! Never heard the metempsychosiS thing, as i didnt study much philosophy in school, but i love the play on words and how it fits... Dont have my I J copy with me but there is something in this passage orjust following w/r/t the woman who kills you is your mext lifes mother(???) ..."

The description from Notkin about The Entertainment doesn't come until p. 788, so I shouldn't have brought it up in this thread. Sorry Hugh!!

metempsychosis is famously brought up in Joyce's Ulysses when Molly Bloom pronounces it "met him pike hoses". Wallace's version - Madame Psychosis - feels very much like a nod to Joyce. IJ and Ulysses have many other nodes of common ground which I won't get into here, but I would say the relation to Ulysses is equal to, if not stronger than the relation to Hamlet.

[Sandra]

I'm kind of toying around with the idea that maybe Mario is not real. Perhaps Mario is just another part (the ugly, stunted, deformed, invisible friend) of Hal? idk, We'll see if it holds up.

The whole Mario and the U.S.S Millicent Kent scenario is perplexing because although Millicent does not sound at all attractive herself, Mario is described as hideous and deformed with the weird bicuspid teeth, claws for hands, huge head and everything else. I can't imagine anyone trying to get into his pants, no matter how unattractive they themselves are. Weird set-up for the tripod...

This time around (I only read about 1/3 of the book the first time, basically gave up at where I am now)the reading is going easier if only because I now know that this isn't a "normal" novel. The endnotes aren't as annoying, the shifting characters stream of consciousness, or DFW's obsessively detailed descriptions aren't as grueling. I'm enjoying everyone's (here)take on it especially if they see something totally different in a scene than what I think is happening. This is a book that really comes to life, really rings in harmony the more voices join the chorus.

[Ry]

Michael wrote: "Jim wrote: "Do you have any thoughts on the connection with Greek philosophy and the concept of metempsychosis ..."

I am trying to locate the reference, but I do know off the top of my head that t..."

I also love when we get to the point in the book where we learn that Madame Psychosis' biggest fan is Mario Incandenza. It goes so far towards showing how different forms of empathy can be achieved, especially seeing as how Mario is certainly a candidate for the UHID and how even a connection between radio host/listener (writer/reader?) can be extremely important and soul-soothing.

Also, we see Mario trying to make connections left and right, which is why he's such a wonderful character: with Hal, with the Moms, with Schtitt, and even with Millicent Kent. I think part of the reason that most of these characters seem to be in a sort of hell is because they don't make connections to each other. In T.S. Eliot's words, "Hell is a place where nothing connects with nothing." Chalk another point for Mario.

[Ry]

Michael wrote: "Here is a reference [spoiler alert]

"Molly Notkin tells the U.S.O.U.S. operatives that her understanding of the après-garde Auteur J. O. Incandenza's lethally entertaining Infinite Jest (V or VI) ..."

I actually have a huge theory about the Entertainment and it's thanks to this time around reading it. Reading it the third time, I finally realized from this quote what the actual filmed "Entertainment" is supposed to be a movie of, and I also figured out what the theme of the movie was and why it was so important to Himself. Though I don't want to give it away right now, it's pretty freaking crazy. And of course, it's just my theory.

[Ry]

Hugh wrote: "Elizabeth:
Yes. It's just "off" enough that it's almost disorienting. As the Wiki entry on the town of Enfield, Mass. puts it:

Much of the novel Infinite Jest takes place in a city called Enfield,..."

And to even extend this line of thinking, it's the same way the whole doctrine of AA gets inside you as well. Get out of your head. Fake it til you make it. Don't ask why. Al-Anon might as well be inside you. It's a crazy, intricate coalescence of all these theories and ways of living being applicable to the same idea. Don't think. Go with the flow. Wow. That's a realization I hadn't had yet. Love it.

[Ry]

Sandra wrote: "I'm reading this on an e-reader and although it makes it easier to deal with the endnotes and you don't have to deal with multiple book marks and the sheer mass of the book itself, it is a real pai..."

I think my favorite section might be the "Tennis and the Feral Prodigy" section on page 173 of the paperback version. The short film that Mario made that follows Hal through his tennis routine. So many beautiful passages abound there.

"Try to learn what is unfair teach you."
"Expect some rough dreams. They come with the territory. Try to accept them. Let them teach you."
"Learn to care and not to care."
Etc.

[Michael, the Olddad]

Ry wrote: "I think my favorite section might be the "Tennis and the Feral Prodigy" section..."

Yes Ry, I liked that section too. I thought it went well with the "exotic facts" you learn if you stay at a rehab facility, circa pg 200, which follows closely the section you mention. I think if I ever re-read this puppy a 3rd time I will recognize these two sections as the beginning of the end of the slow slog of a read we now know as The First 200 Pages.
mm

[Sandra]

Oh yeah. I finally watched the Decemberist's Calamity Song video since that's where I am currently in the book. Kind of a rip-off of REM no? Had to laugh at the one lady in the bandana. It did help me understand how the court was set up better, I must admit!

[Elizabeth, bubbles]

Ry wrote: Also, we see Mario trying to make connections left and right, which is why he's such a wonderful character: with Hal, with the Moms, with Schtitt, and even with Millicent Kent. I think part of the reason that most of these characters seem to be in a sort of hell is because they don't make connections to each other. In T.S. Eliot's words, "Hell is a place where nothing connects with nothing." Chalk another point for Mario.

A perfect illustration of the mystery of interpersonal affinity. Either there is chemistry, or there is nothing.

Mastery of the entire english lexicon can't buy it for Hal, and being a professional athlete can't buy it for Orin.

Great post, Ry!

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

I agree, Elizabeth. Great post, Ry. (Now you've got me wondering about your Entertainment theory.)

This read through, I'm definitely noticing Mario more. I definitely have a sense of a pure Alyosha Karamazov innocence... but in many ways, he also seems to be/have the "affect" that Hal and Orin seem to be missing.

[Michael, the Olddad]

RE: DFW Vocab

Just to digress a minute from thematic concerns: you just have to love DFW's word choice throughout. I was struck reading one of his essay and his use there of the word "ayatolloid" - I am rating this neologistic, how 'bout you? - but we find a slew of such adjectives in IJ using the 'iod" suffix, some of which it turns out are legitimate like,

teratoid - abnormal in form or development; malformed.
lithioid - resembling stone or rock

And a ton of legitimate spacial adjectives, e.g.

cardioid - heart shaped
conoid
cycloid
ovaloid
ovoid - egg shaped
paraboloid
rhombusoid
trapezoid

But I particularly like the home-made adjectives he comes up with, e.g.

Eskimoid
batsoid - as in, "it drove him batsoid"
dipsoid - as in, possessing the character of a dipshit
Medusoid
triviumoid - pertaining to the classical trivium cirriculum
vegetoid
etc.

If you are at all interested in DFW vocab, you should check out the following site. I found this a great site to surf through:

http://definitivejest.blogspot.com/
mm

[Ry]

Hugh wrote: "I agree, Elizabeth. Great post, Ry. (Now you've got me wondering about your Entertainment theory.)

This read through, I'm definitely noticing Mario more. I definitely have a sense of a pure Alyos..."

Oh god, Hugh, you're totally right! And let's not forget that Wallace in his rejection of Barth et al he reached all the way back to Dostoyevsky for his new literary father/inspiration--Wallace respected the combination of earnestness and spirituality in Dostoyevsky. This was something that D.T. Max touched on in his biography of Wallace and so we get a sense that Mario could very well be his stand-in for Alyosha. Also, Wallace wrote a very adoring review of Joseph Frank's Dostoyevsky biography. So there's totally a connection there. Love it!

[Kerry, flame-haired janeite]

Hi all! I'm chiming in! I have not read in over a week due to moving. I'm still getting organized. Still skimming these posts but I don't really feel like you give anything away. It's not that kind of book. All your posts are extremely helpful to this IJ newbie. Keep it up!

[Hugh, aka Hugh the Moderator]

A thought: We don't have to create a compendium of quotable lines but for THIS particular group of readers, I'm curious what some of your favorite lines or short passages are.

One of the things that impresses me so much about DFW is just how quickly the book pivots from humor to dark brooding, each made resonant through his language and juxtapositions:

from the "YYY?" of Madame Psychosis' radio station, WYYY, where She's mostly alone in there when she's on-air. Every so often there's a guest, but the guest will usually get introduced and then not say anything. The monologues seem both free-associative and intricately structured, not unlike nightmares.

to Joelle van Dyne on the phone with Molly Notkin:

What if it's not arousal that so finitely circumscribed? What if in fact there were ever only like two really distinct people walking around back there in history's mist? That all differences descend from this difference? The whole and the partial. The damaged and the intact. The deformed and the paralyzingly beautiful. The insane and the attendant. The hidden and the blindingly open. The performer and the audience. No Zen-type One, always rather Two, upside down, in a convex lens.

[Les]

Hugh, I think this is a good idea. I wonder if a separate thread is necessary just to serve as an anthology of our favorite quotes.

To an earlier question, it does get easier. I am almost 25 % through at this point. Over a hundred of those pages were in the last day or so because I simply could not put it down. It is vast, but is beginning to make more sense and the connections appear to becoming clearer. His language is amazing and the poeticism referred to by many other earlier is now obvious and frequent.

The section in which O presses Hal for details about Himself is simply riveting. The juxtaposition of grotesque with the humor of Hal's toe clipping and snark is brilliantly unsettling. It was one of the most unputdownable sections of any book I have read in a long time.

Also, Patty asked earlier if Hal actually goes to a library. There are many discussions about going to a library to research the True effects of DMZ, but that has not happened yet. In the O discussion, Hal recounts how he does go to a library to research what he needs to tell the death counselor so he can "deliver the goods." There is even a variation on everyone's beloved quote:

"I actually said, 'The nearest library with a cutting-edge professional grief- and trauma-therapy section, and step on it.'"

This is all coming out randomly, but there have been a few sections similar to (and including) the exotic facts sections mentioned above that are truly wise and are simply beautiful.

My book is an absolute mess of bookmarks, penmarks, and highlightings.

Truly starting to love this!

[Les]

A follow up on the audiobook comments. I agree with Jim and others that if you were only listening that you would not be getting the book DFW wrote. Even when listening I am marking the points where the endnotes are (there is an annoying female voice that nicely places the notes in order) or actually stop listening and go to the endnotes.

I am also listening to IJ secondarily. I am reading it first. I started my audio experience back at the beginning. So, I find that I am hearing things I may have missed the first time. I will eventually have both read and fully listened to IJ if I keep this up. The full immersion experience in this novel on multiple levels is making for a very rewarding experience.

[Michael, the Olddad]

Les wrote: "To an earlier question, it does get easier. I am almost 25 % through at this point. Over a hundred of those pages were in the last day or so because I simply could not put it down. It is vast, but is beginning to make more sense and the connections appear to becoming clearer. His language is amazing and the poeticism referred to by many other earlier is now obvious and frequent...."

Les, I hear you. "Keep coming back." At some point after Poor Tony loses it in spectacular fashion on the subway, the book went from slog to pure page turner for me. The AA meeting circa pages 340 - 375 is riveting.
mm

[Michael, the Olddad]

Hugh wrote: "A thought: We don't have to create a compendium of quotable lines but for THIS particular group of readers, I'm curious what some of your favorite lines or short passages are..."

The ETA Motto has to be on our short list of quotable lines, "They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier".

mm