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Sally Wiener Grotta
Writer's Circle
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A question on distinction re self-promo and asking for reviews
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I've given this much thought. Then I had a beer and forgot what I was going to say, a common failing among writers.Authors drink beer more than they read about professional development... in my experience, by a ratio of roughly seven to one (the glide ratio of a Cessna 172).
Authors also read about professional development more than they read about airplanes - say, four times more. Of those who like flying stories, one in twenty will write you a nice review.
The same analysis applies to ghost stories. Hang on for the math. In order to reap five reviews from other authors, you'll have to entice 100 of them to read your book without running afoul of Patrick The Dreaded One. You do this by talking peripherally about the books while writing threads about the success of your publishing company. You'll need about 400 Pixel Hall readers to get your five reviews, in case you're following the algebra. But remember, you have to get them to LIKE YOU, so you buy authors a beer and then they get interested in Pixel Hall. That's 2800 brewskies.
The generic six-packs at Walmart cost 5.75 each and you're gonna have to buy 467 of them, for a total outlay of $2873.22 (including 7% sales tax).
Of course, you could always just drink the beer, thus reducing the relative importance of good reviews as compared to knowing the location and best route to the most proximal water closet.
I hope this helps.
Jon
Author Behaving Badly
I thought that there was another page somewhere where you could ask for reviews? That said, I think that asking for reviews is a little different from pure self-promotion. Sometimes people come on this page and just say that they've published a new book, and then there's a summary of the book and some quotes from something someone said on Amazon. That's pure self-promotion, and not allowed. Does anyone know if there is a place for authors to ask for reviews outside of this page? (This might be one for Patrick.)You might also try a giveaway of some of the galleys. Do you know how to do a giveaway on Goodreads? It is made very clear to people trying to win the book, and also once they win (because I've won a couple) that, while they're not required to review it, they are strongly encouraged to review it. (Among other things, they'll have a better chance of winning more books if they review books they win.) You need to give away a whole lot of them to get sufficient reviews - give away as many as you can afford.
Steven wrote: "You need to give away a whole lot of them to get sufficient reviews - give away as many as you can afford."2800 should do. There is also a group on Facebook dedicated to requesting reviews (I forgot the name of the group, sorry). Don't ignore your local English teachers. They can review/critique better than your average hairdresser.
Jon
Author Behaving Badly
I haven't found an effective way to promote here. Have given away probably 30 books conditioned on getting reviews, have received about 3 reviews.A lot about of Goodreads I don't get. The "top reviewer" for last week reviewed 185 books? Last week's top user added 5200 books last week? What's up with that and that? I don't get what a Goodreads librarian is...
Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I'll look forward to connecting further with all of you here on the forum and on GoodReads in general.Sally
*glares at Jon* *aside* How does he know these things? It has to be the beer...No, wait! It's what is in the beer.
*shakes fist at the heavens* Curse yous for not making me twenty one already!
*to Jon* I guess I'm that one sober person in a sea of drunks. Designated driver anyone?
Steven wrote: "I thought that there was another page somewhere where you could ask for reviews? That said, I think that asking for reviews is a little different from pure self-promotion. Sometimes people come on..."
As a former English teacher, let me say that my "free" time was consumed by reading egregious essays by kids or their parents, who assumed they should all earn an A. Please be kind to your local English teachers. If they live long enough to retire, they will join a group like this, and then yes, they will write really good reviews. :0) e
As a former English teacher, let me say that my "free" time was consumed by reading egregious essays by kids or their parents, who assumed they should all earn an A. Please be kind to your local English teachers. If they live long enough to retire, they will join a group like this, and then yes, they will write really good reviews. :0) e
I don't actively ask for reviews. I find it self-abasing and distasteful. There was a fat kid in my third grade class at Hayes-Barton Elementary School. Nobody liked him. His name was Charley Snowden, and even today I can't shake the willies when I think about him. Out of the blue one day, Charley decided that I should be his friend. He walked up to me at recess and said, "Will you be my friend?"Just like that. Will...you...be...my...friend? I wondered at the emptiness of his little eight-year old life. Then I punched him in the gut and ran away.
Asking for reviews is a lot like that.
Jon
Author Behaving Badly
There is a thread called "Seeking Book Reviewers" that I've been watching. A lot of authors are swapping reviews. I wonder at the wisdom of this. I am considering offering to review books of other new authors (those who need the reviews) but if I swap and don't like the work, what then? It just seems like it would be hard to be honest, which is what a review should be. And it would probably anger the author who would then relatiate. So I agree with Jon, I'm not asking.
You've really got to be honest with a review. I'm one of those dreadful people who either loves a book or else finds it insipid and I start skim reading. There are, admittedly, some books that are middle of the road, i.e. well written but not my genre and I'll be quite honest about that, so a 3 is in order.
People do not like giving reviews, especially friends. So one just has to plod along, meet the right people and hope that someone will recognise one's capabilities. And when that gem turns up, everyone will buy it! People are like sheep in some respects.
People do not like giving reviews, especially friends. So one just has to plod along, meet the right people and hope that someone will recognise one's capabilities. And when that gem turns up, everyone will buy it! People are like sheep in some respects.
Unfortunately, I have recently read two books by friends that are quite poorly done. I'm sure they're waiting for me to review them, but I can't bring myself to give them the one or two star review their unprofessional work deserves. When it's strangers, I'm honest, because I feel that my loyalty is to readers of my reviews. (I actually do non-book reviews professionally.) But with friends, my loyalty is torn.
Sally wrote: "Unfortunately, I have recently read two books by friends that are quite poorly done. I'm sure they're waiting for me to review them, but I can't bring myself to give them the one or two star review..."Sally, that's a hard situation. But here's the thing: everyone's opinion is different. I've rated some books poorly, but made sure to put in an actual review to explain what I did and didn't like about the book. I've noticed other people then add that book to their own shelves (assumably because they read the review and the things that I didn't like aren't things that bother them).
My point: as long as you review the book and are specific about why you're rating it low, I don't think a 2-star is as harmful to an author as you might think. A 2-star review might actually be more helpful than no review.
Lynn wrote: "There is a thread called "Seeking Book Reviewers" that I've been watching. A lot of authors are swapping reviews. I wonder at the wisdom of this."You are wise to avoid reviewing another author. Many users of this forum carry multiple logins - one as an author and another, using an alias, so they may feel free to flame or insult without being held accountable. I considered doing this myself. I'm a coward, you see. But after a bit of cogitating, I realized that my alias could have a brave face but I would remain a coward. So I don't do solicited reviews. That way my gutlessness is in check and I have less work on my desk.
In my opinion, a review should only be written if the reader had a strong reaction to the book (positive or negative). A "3" rating isn't a review... it's a critique.
As a said, I don't solicit reviews, but I DO ask for critiques - especially if I discover the reader is an active English teacher (yeah! take THAT, Ellen). Reviews will happen.
Reviews aren't all that important. No one has ever mentioned to me how impressed they were by my reviews. Just a side note, one of my books was selected "Indie Book of the Day" for Thanksgiving and this award translated into ZERO new sales.
Jon
indiebookoftheday.comOr do you mean 'where', as in the physical location?
No. I was wondering the sight and who exactly picks them.
In a previous life, I wrote screenplays. Every review for trade cost me a pal. I was a poor player at the game. Always posted first.
In answer to a lot of the questions on here about a review, there is a group on here where the authors review one another but it isn't reciprocal..for instance, A reviews B but C reviews A..therefore, you will never be reviewed by the one you review. This helps with the honesty factor. I have a blog where I review only debut authors, those with less than 3 published novels. If I review on my blog, I also review on here and either Amazon or Smashwords, depending where I received it. I also tweet all reviews. I am working on my debut novel right now, so I have nothing to review as of yet, however, I am considering a prequel to promote interest in the novel when it is ready. I do have quite an extensive queue right now, but please feel free to check it out if interested: www.rebeccavance.com. Oh, and here is the link for that review group I mentioned earlier: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
I think it's ok to ask for reviews. What I don't think is ok is wanting the reviewer to buy the book in order to review it. Then we're talking self-promotion.
I appreciate a glowing review, but not at the cost of objectivity. I've had 3-star stinkers that were spot-on critiques of weaknesses in my style deserving of a rewrite. The same book garnered consistent 5's. I spent all of five minutes basking in the afterglow of my own praise before getting serious and releasing an improved edition. Now I'm happy with the way the book reads. It was that 3-star stinker that made me happy. Trouble is, I'd be unlikely to reciprocate. I'm a sandbagger. It's a cowardly admission, I know, but I sugarcoat everything. I'll read a one-star loser and find all the good things I like about it and just like that, I turn gutless.
I have no interest in reforming my ways. Nor am I alone. Reciprocal reviews are the gateway to self-abasement. From the first prepubescent game of "show me yours and I'll show you mine", I have gushed forth with disingenuous complements in spite of the obvious differences in content, development, and style. I'm taking about books, now.
So I don't think it's OK to ask for reviews from other authors. I might be expected to see theirs after showing them mine.
I do think it's acceptable to give away books as gifts, but I make it a point to tell the recipient that NO REVIEW IS EXPECTED. If they feel strong enough about the book, they will tell someone or maybe put their comments in writing.
Personally, I'd rather have feedback from the heart. I may feel differently when my new book hits the street.
I'm so wishy-washy.
Jon
Author Behaving Badly
Jon wrote: "I appreciate a glowing review, but not at the cost of objectivity. I've had 3-star stinkers that were spot-on critiques of weaknesses in my style deserving of a rewrite. The same book garnered co..."I actually love your honesty, it is really refreshing! :) I understand what you are saying. I gave an author a 3-star rating because I didn't think she developed the characters enough and I thought it was a great premise, and said so..but it ended abruptly and I felt that since it was a short story, it could have been developed into a novel, or at the very least, a novella. She actually favored that and wrote to thank me and is following my blog. I was kind of surprised, in a good way. I will be honest, but constructively. I am a newbie too and I really have no desire to tear anyone apart, but want to read it as a reader, rather than a critic.
I agree that the trading of reviews among authors is a questionable proposition, given that there is the obvious incentive to position oneself for the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" maneuver. On the other hand, I see no ethical problem with seeking reviews from people who, well, tend to write reviews. In that case there is no guarantee that the review will be positive, and so what's the issue? As a relatively new author I have a fraction of a percent more than zero name recognition out there in the real world (I prefer my world of fantasy, but even if I instruct my characters to buy my books, I don't think that will have much effect on my royalties). The bottom line, to my eye, is that no matter how good my work might be, it will remain an unknown unless people start hearing or reading other people talking about it. It's a challenge to even give my books away to people who have never heard of me, and understandably so. Reading a book requires a significant investment of one's time, and that seems to be a shrinking commodity. I freely admit that one of the first things I look for when considering an author unknown to me is that author's slate of reviews. I keep hoping that someone who is a respected name in my genre will stumble upon my books, and like them and make that known, but that's a long shot. Alternatively, there is strength in numbers, but after all my efforts I still have but six reviews at Amazon on my first novel, and it was not self-published. Sigh...
Here is the page to seek reviews from other authors:http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/7...
Eric - I would recommend that you start with Kirkus and with some of the Indie book contests. Once you have a few accolates under your belt, it'll be easier to get people to read your book and review it.Kirkus reviews Indie books - they charge a fee, but that does not guarantee you a good review, so it really does mean something. That will incentivize people to enter Goodreads contests to win your book, or to sign up for a free Kindle download. As Jon notes, an accolade by itself will not drive sales, but it's my humble opinion that they'll help take you where you want to go.
Well said by many here. One thing I have found, giveaway-wise, is here:http://www.librarything.com/er/giveaw...
My book (The Elementals) is there, as are many more, so I'm not yet sure how effective it is.
Another Eric, Eric Wright....reviews are a challenge. I have 9 solid, genuine reviews for my 2nd suspense novel (only one of which is a bit scathing) but only 1 for the first in this series. But the reviews seem to be posted a little erratically on Amazon. It continues to be a challenge to encourage those who verbally glow about the book to put down a paragraph as a review.
reviews can be a pisser...I think that's the right british term...I have a bad review...one star...my book is a critic of the bible...no more, no less...the reviwer's reason for giving me one star was because my book did not a compare Christianity to other religions, which was not the purpose of the book...To me that's like saying a book about Dracula gets one star because it isn't a book about Werewolves...Am I wrong?
Troy wrote: "Well said by many here. One thing I have found, giveaway-wise, is here:http://www.librarything.com/er/giveaw...
My book (The Elementals) is there, as are many more, so I'm not yet sure how ..."
If it helps, I can give you my experience of doing a giveaway with LibraryThing. I gave away 100 e-books and got 11 reviews which I think is about to be expected. So if you are happy with that ratio, go for it. Personally, I was pleased - though some of them were better (I don't mean ratings-wise, just as in more thorough) than others.
In the meantime, we'll soon be starting to use GoodReads to connect with readers, and I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions for this forum. Here's the first one.
I quite accept and agree with the idea that this group isn't for self-promotion but for authors to help each other. However, I'm not sure where the boundaries are.
For instance, I see in another thread that an author directly asked if anyone is interested in reviewing a pre-publication book. And several authors responded in the positive. Is that considered acceptable?
More specifically, we've recently published "Seven From Haven" (a collection of gentle O'Henry-like ghost stories) and will soon have pre-pub bound galleys and review eBooks of "Jo Joe" (a mystery of the heart that explores the personal cost of prejudice). I'd appreciate any guidelines in how to ask fellow authors on this forum if they would consider reviewing our books.
Thank you, Sally