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Is anyone making money with Lightning Source print?
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Paul
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Nov 18, 2012 05:53PM
Bookstores hate Amazon/Createspace. One alternative is Lightning Source/Ingram who distributes print books to bookstores worldwide. There's an option to accept returns from bookstores or not. I don't hear anything about self-published books making money in print. What's your experience?
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My fiction book is available in print and ebook editions. I've sold about 2,000 ebooks and less than 10 print books. My print book is priced at $9.99.My little publishing company's production process includes a print edition as part of the workflow, so I didn't have to pay anything "extra" for it. If I did have to invest hard cash in professional layout and design, I probably would skip print until the economics made sense.
Most first-time authors I know have had a similar experience. The only self publishers who seem to be able to sell print editions are non-fiction authors and fiction authors who have a substantial fan base (particularly those who moved over from trad publishing.)
James, are you selling your ebooks through KDP or Lightning Source? I'm trying to decide if I need to add LSI to broaden beyond Amazon.
Paul wrote: "James, are you selling your ebooks through KDP or Lightning Source? I'm trying to decide if I need to add LSI to broaden beyond Amazon."I'm selling my ebooks at Amazon (through KDP), Kobo (through Kobo Writing Life), and Barnes & Noble (through PubIt!). FYI, I sell almost nothing on Kobo and Barnes & Noble.
Although Lightning Source does have an ebook distribution program, it does not distribute to Amazon (they don't do a MobiPocket/Kindle format).
I will be using Lightning source for book stores and for distribution in Asia /Australia where Amazon doesn't have a presence.Sometimes it's better to focus on one channel like Amazon so that rankings can build - when you spread too thinly than no one channel exploits sales.
I have focused on Amazon at the moment but as moving back to Australia want to have a better presence there than Amazon and will use LSI.
Lightning Source (LSI) is owned by Ingram and distributes print worldwide online to Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Books a Million and many more. Create Space gets you Amazon only. The print quality of LSI blows the doors off of Create Space but you pay a bit more. I have used both and I believe LSI is by far the best way to go based on quality and full distribution.John
Createspace will distribute to Barnes and Noble, Ingram, and retailers other than amazon thru their expanded distribution program (see https://www.createspace.com/Products/... )(Not an author so no experience with LSI or createspace but got curious because saw createspace as publisher on non-amazon sites)
Bookstores reportedly won't order from Createspace, because they are owned by Amazon.
Thanks for the comments. This was valuable information. I'd decided a long time ago to use LSI, your comments just confirmed my decision.
I have only heard comments that LSI prints better quality books, and you have to pay more for them. I'd have no problem paying a little more. But I'm not hearing any self-published author say that LSI is actually selling their print books to bookstores. I've also heard that bookstores don't buy self-published books (unless put in individually on consignment). It's nice to hear that LSI distributes to other countries, but so does CreateSpace. I'll try LSI when I hear that someone is getting results. The bottom line is that the author has to get them in no matter who prints them.
Sally wrote: "Bookstores reportedly won't order from Createspace, because they are owned by Amazon."Possibly, bookstores do get from Ingram, again just looking at the createspace link and not personal experience dealing with them (some retail experience on bookstore end), and createspace claims to distribute to Ingram. LSI, I believe, is Ingram direct.
Generally, most bookstores and other retailers go through distrbutors and large volume vendors/publishers to avoid being eaten alive by shipping costs and have dependable business relationship/policies. Local authors or books of local interest an exception for some. I don't doubt many independent bookstores see amazon and other big box booksellers, on and off internet, as the enemy. Some of amazon, google, and other internet biggies' policies enforce that view.
Physical brick and mortar bookshelf space for print copies difficult for even established bestselling print authors. I suspect that for indie published print versions, most bookstores do special orders only, whether from LSI or any other source.
I'll also add that Ingram/LSI is contracted to print most CreateSpace books. The difference in quality probably has to do with volume and costs - like companies who sell to Walmart (some manufacture their product at a reduction in quality to lower the price). It's a business.
Please note that if you use LSI, you are not guaranteed shelf space, even if your book is listed as available for returns. You still need to call each individual B&N, and chat with them about ordering stock of your book. There have been several articles about LSI, listing the pros and cons. Pros are that, if you enable returns and offer the 55% discount, B&N might be enticed enough to stock your books, same with small local shops. Having a plan to market for each B&N you call will help lean them in favor of your books in their stores. Another pro is the quality, easily.
Cons for LSI are that your book can potentially 'go out of stock' on Amazon, since LSI is a channel of Ingram, which is Amazon's, and ultimately CreateSpace's, competition. A couple searches for LSI and the details surrounding this on Google will lay it out for you piece by piece. CS books never go out of stock on Amazon (that I have seen), but LSI ones occasionally go to 'will ship in 1-3 days/weeks/months' and can deter a customer from hitting the purchase button. It's a strong-arm move by CS/Amazon to make you want to use CS as your POD printer rather than LSI.
When you boil it down, it all comes down to two things; is there a big enough demand for your book on a large scale, and how much profit are you attempting to turn in what kind of time scale?
If there's a big demand and you want to see your book on shelves, and want to turn a profit long term, go LSI.
If there isn't a huge demand, or you want to turn a fast profit, or even if you don't want to do crazy leg-work and phone calls to bookstores to have them stock shelves with your books, go CS.
On my next book, I'm considering becoming my own publisher...Createsapace said they didn't care if I was listed as my publisher or they were....I'm wondering why not try and go with both....createspace for amazon and LSI for general distribution. That would give them both their own areas of expertise...
That's what I'm did. I registered and got my own ISBN and registered myself as a Publisher with a business number. Quite simple really and means I can use any printer I want at any time. The plan is Createspace for Amazon (under my publisher name) and LSI for everything else. I'm not yet inspired to go the bookstores yet though, as being available to bookstores doesn't actually create sales in itself and LSI has setup costs.
If you're sure you'll have customers interest in "ordering" your book (because real talk, the likelihood of a chain store stocking them is nil to none unless you become the next E.L. James or Amanda Hocking). The only people who want to order my books who don't go online is my grandma...and I'll just send them to her because...well she is my grandma. Once I looked over my sales I realized that LSI is the service I'll use if and when the demand for being able to order my books in stores is expressed by readers to me online. Otherwise I've seen consistent paperback sales via CreateSpace on amazon and consistent sales via ebook on all platforms. Hope this helps.
This has been a really informative discussion. Thank you all!I'd like to hear about your experiences with Smashwords vs. enrolling separately in Kobo and B & N's nook. Smashwords is like a 'one-stop shop' but I've heard both pros and cons about it.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a web page that explains exactly how LSI works? I'm new to this I have one e-book with small publisher but I hold the print rights and another coming out in May 2013. I want hard copies of my books POD and it seems LSI are the best alternative. I have several outlets who would like to stock them.Thanks
Createspace told me they will print hardcovers for my personal use, but they only offer paperbacks and ebooks otherwise...but that's what someone told me on the phone, I haven't seen it with my own eyes as yet.
I published Healing Personal Psychology a year ago, through LSI. I paid about $400 in total to get this 300+ page book published. As of this date I have yet to reach the sales amount that gets me a check from Ingram. I published the same book as an e-book, paid about $150 to get that published, and made a few bucks. My latest, Healing Personal Depression And Anxiety For Good, costing me $zero, made more so far than the other two. Perhaps its my subject matter, but I've followed most suggestions for marketing that did not cost anything, including social media and some blogs, but still haven't made enough to pay one month's mortgage for all three.
Debbie (Debbie Rice) wrote: "Sally wrote: "Bookstores reportedly won't order from Createspace, because they are owned by Amazon."Possibly, bookstores do get from Ingram, again just looking at the createspace link and not per..."
Apparently this is the case. Two readers recently went to two separate brick-and-mortar bookstores and ordered my book, The Lost King http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13.... The bookstores ordered from Ingram, who ordered from createspace and the sales have just been reported by createspace as "Expanded Distribution" sales. I will add that it took the 3 weeks for the customers to get their books. Also, I'll add that I am the publisher and I use my own ISBNs, not createspace's.
Devorah wrote: ...I am the publisher and I use my own ISBNs.That probably helps. Your ISBNs list you as the publisher. The free ISBN you get from CS lists them as the publisher.
One of the reasons it can be tough to get bookstores to order your books is that CS only gives them a 25% margin instead of the 40% they normally want, and CS does not allow returns. With a pre-paid customer order, stores seem to be willing to accept those terms because they have a guaranteed sale.
Am I right in thinking there's a fairly heft joining fee for LightSource?
LightSource has a fairly hefty set-up fee, but if you order 100 copies, any combination of papebacks and hardcovers, the fee is waived...so it's not a problem.
There is no fee for joining LS, though their initial setup costs and proof costs are higher.I use LSI. My book (The Burning of Cherry Hill) has been out for less than 2 weeks with almost no marketing (I'm a college student with two kids). I have sold about 30 ebooks and 12 print books.
It's available for purchase at Barnes and Noble online as well as Amazon, which I think is huge. The Ingram distribution as well as the fact that the quality is far superior IMO and they offer MATTE covers instead of just glossy set me over the edge. (They also do hardcover, which CS doesn't.) I've had a lot of problems (not LSI related, just me trying to figure things out) and their customer service is FANTASTIC.
So...there's my little opinion. :)
I have no experience with LS, but did want to clarify one point: one can have one's CreateSpace paperback on Barnes & Noble online. (I have two there.)A.K. wrote: "There is no fee for joining LS, though their initial setup costs and proof costs are higher.
I use LSI. My book (The Burning of Cherry Hill) has been out for less than 2 weeks with almost no marke..."
I have no experience with LS, but did want to clarify one point: one can have one's CreateSpace paperback on Barnes & Noble online. (I have two there.)This is true. For $25, you can sign up for the CreateSpace Expanded Distribution program, which gets your book listed in the Ingram catalog right alongside the LSI books.
Unfortunately, CS/ED requires that you set a 60% discount. A book priced at $20 that costs $5 to print earns you $3 with CreateSpace versus $11 with Lightning Source (assuming you set a 20% LSI discount.) Another way to look at it is that you can earn the same $3 from LSI by pricing your book at just $10.
Question: aside from $ considerations, is there anything that would stop me from using both createspace/Expanded Distribution and LSI for the same book? (BTW... it's my ISBN)
Not that I know of. I've heard of people doubling CreateSpace/Lulu, for example, if they want to produce hard-cover books.
Devorah wrote: "Question: aside from $ considerations, is there anything that would stop me from using both createspace/Expanded Distribution and LSI for the same book? (BTW... it's my ISBN)"There really isn't much point in doing that. CS/ED puts your book into the Ingram catalog, so you would effectively be listing the same edition of your book twice. That's partly why CS requires you to assign a new ISBN to your book if you are distributing through LSI. You would probably end up with duplicate listings at the retailers, which would cause confusion for everyone.
C.P. wrote: "Not that I know of. I've heard of people doubling CreateSpace/Lulu, for example, if they want to produce hard-cover books."The situation you described works fine because the books are different editions (paperback vs hardback) and they have different ISBNs.
I didn't opt in to Expanded Distribution for my Pendragon Chronicles books because that would have put the price at over $20, and I found it hard to beleive that anyone would buy a trade paperback for that price. So I've been considering doing hardcover versions of the books through LS. Just wary of the expense and the learning curve. :/
James wrote: A book priced at $20 that costs $5 to print earns you $3 with CreateSpace versus $11 with Lightning Source (assuming you set a 20% LSI discount.) Another way to look at it is that you can earn the same $3 from LSI by pricing your book at just $10."I'm debating on whether to try LSI two years after I published the book with CS & Amazon digital. When I figure the 55% discount for LSI (which I was told by an LSI rep was the only way B & N would order self-published books) the 290 page paperback I sell on Amazon for $12.95 would have to sell for $20.95 to earn the same profit on LSI. That gives the retailer (who buys the book for $9.50) room to discount it in the store if they want. I don't care what they sell it for, as long as I get my $2-3. What I'm not sure about is getting listed on Amazon again with another ISBN and having two copies of the same book - one that earns $3 if ordered from CS and the other that would get a much lower % on expanded distribution.
Marian wrote: "I'd like to hear about your experiences with Smashwords vs. enrolling separately in Kobo and B & N's nook. Smashwords is like a 'one-stop shop' but I've heard both pros and cons about it. i>I wanted to get on Smashwords so I could get iBookstore (Apple) distribution. I signed up in November and put 5 books on it. Smashwords has sold "0" but it looks like there have been a couple of sales through iPhone and one or two smaller distributors. I have $2.70 in accrued profits so far. In the meantime, I put the same books on Kobo and B & N. Kobo has sold "3" and B&N has sold "7". I have made no effort to market through those outlets. I'll need a couple more months to determine if the sales will improve. I may try to go direct with Apple, too. I think dealing direct increases the chances you'll be seen. I just need the time to do it all.
I have 3 books with LSI. They are all paperbacks and most of my sales are via Amazon. I give Amazon 30% discount, reasoning that if someone is going to buy the book, Amazon will take the discount rather than lose the sale. So far, so good.
We need some kind of chart listing all the services, their costs, and pros and cons. I might get started trying to create one...I've been visiting them one at a time. But don't anyone hold your breath; I am unfortunately susceptible to distractions, and there are plenty of distractions in the indie publishing field!
Eddie, I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind answering a few questions. I'm planning on using Lightning Source. Are the print book and ebook submissions two separate, different submissions? (One with page numbers, for the print version, and one without? Or just one submission for both formats?) Also, do most publishers using LS go with the universal barcode or the EAN?If I haven't yet signed on with LS, can I still get a template for my book's cover?
Also, once a title is added to their library, how are the distribution channels activated? Are you, the publisher/author, in direct contact with the distributors, or is LS taking care of that?
Answers much appreciated.
Cindy wrote: "Eddie, I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind answering a few questions. I'm planning on using Lightning Source. Are the print book and ebook submissions two separate, different submissions? (One with..."Cindy, I only use LSI for print and don't know their ebook specs. There should be info on this on their site.
I let LSI insert the barcode on the back cover based on my ISBN. I add the price above the barcode box in $,€ and £.
LSI emails cover template to you based on your page size, paper type and number of pages. I think you need to sign with them first. It's free anyway. There may be info on their book designer section online.
You pick the type of arrangement you want for your book — short runs, distribution. Books are on Amazon within a few days of you signing off on the proofs. You need have no contact with distributors, LSI does all that.
hope this helps.
es
Thanks!! Hope you don't mind answering one more? Did you prepare the .pdfs yourself when you submitted? Is so, was your cover assembled from three images, or one? (I have a cover jpeg, all designed and sized. I'm making a spine and back cover jpg.) Can I assemble in three parts using the template once I receive it? Thanks and I really appreciate this info. LS is not into answering questions from newbie publisher/authors.
Yeah, you can take front cover, back cover, and spine and size them to fit the template they give you...
Yes you can assemble on the template or make indesign doc of template and work on that. I use this method. When requesting template, be careful that you select the proper cover type is: trade paper, hardcover or case. You output from indesign to highest quality PDF. Make sure cover image is high-res jpg and check PDF carefully to see if it has pixelated.
We use LS and the books sell, Farmer Fisher has been selling every month for two years with no marketing but it was a best seller back in 1975 so people remember it. Emily Alice Ovenden is a singer and has a fan base and her books sell in the low hundreds. The Trevithick Society books also sell.Through good reviews Bombay City of Sandals has sold less than a hundred books but by someone almost unknown, Shänne
Sands.
My own books don't sell much at the moment.
I sell around 100 copies of my books through Createspace for each copy through Lightning Source. Lightning source have skipped about twelve royalty payments totalling thousands of dollars. They claim to have made the payments. When I ask them for evidence by way of cancelled checks they ignor my request. A cancelled check shows a payment has been cashed. I have sent more than 20 emails requesting proof of payment, all unanswered so I am removing my titles from their distribution. It does not appear that how to do this is decribed on their web site and when you ask them how to do it they do not reply. There is no point in continuing to distribute through an organization that does not honor their royalty agreements with publishers. They have a too big to fail attitude like Lehmann Bros.
They rely on the legal protection that you have to pay for an attorney to take them to court if you only have ISBN.Royalty payments are not enforcable when a small publisher must pay legal costs against Ingram.
I suspect that they are not being honest about their sales volumes as they are so small in comparison to Amazon but they have substantial relative distribution. The numbers are impossible to verify. You can get someone to buy 50 copies in Australia and wait to see if the royalties are reported.
LSI have an army of people who exchange emails when you send them any communication but never answer your questions. Their employees constantly change. Other publishing sites report that a lot of the LSI employess do not have valid work permits, are paid very low wages and this is why they change and customer service is so poor. The customer service at Amazon is much better.
LSI keep hitting you with ongoing fees that are substantial.
I have discontinued kindle because I get greater sales overall without ebooks. Ebooks sell at a lower margin and are much easier to pirate.
Someone distributed 56,000 pirated copies of my books through Alibaba in China.These were probably created from ebooks.
I would advise any publisher strongly to go with Amazon and not with LSI.LSIs business model is not viable in the long term.
My paperbacks are distributed through Lightning Source and I have never seen any problem with royalties or payments. Nor have I ever heard of anyone else having issues. I seriously doubt they would still be in business if they defrauded customers of thousands of dollars.Apart from quality, the other advantage of LS is making my books available in B&N stores. Many bookstores won't stock POD books as there is no ability to return unsold stock. LSI is a better alternative if you want a physical presence on a store shelf.
Whichever printer you chose remember they are just manufacturing the physical book. Sales and marketing is still on the author - LS or CS won't *sell* the books for you :)
"My paperbacks are distributed through Lightning Source and I have never seen any problem with royalties or payments."I have seen big problems with LSI. On Amazon I do not need to sell the books they sell themselves in much larger volumes than LSI. I suspect LSI are using unethical means to force publishers to cancel their distribution or into their 40% Spark model.
I am not the only person who has concluded that LSI isn't a good company to publish through.Aaron Shepard who was a supporter of LSI and who has written a number of books about POD says publish through Amazon not LSI.
http://www.newselfpublishing.com/blog/
"Important! If you have come to this blog for updates to my books Aiming at Amazon or POD for Profit, please note: Because of various changes mostly discussed on this site, new self publishers will find that working with Lightning Source is now less advantageous or accessible. I suggest focusing instead on CreateSpace and/or Amazon’s Kindle Direct Publishing."
"Nor have I ever heard of anyone else having issues"
That is not entirely correct if you just read my posting.
My royalty payments are missing and they ignor my requests to provide the information needed to find out what has happened.
Aaron writes:
"Meanwhile, because two of my publishing books strongly recommend Lightning Source, I’m in the process of taking them out of print.
Update #1, Oct 28, 2013—I’ve heard from a couple of publishers who have shown it’s still possible to storm the front gates of Ingram and gain admittance to Lightning Source. The key seems to be a detailed and reasoned explanation of why IngramSpark will not meet your needs. So, that’s something you might try before taking my suggestion of contacting a sales rep.
Update #2, Mar. 10, 2014—A friend at Lightning tells me that, though a personal referral does carry weight, what sales reps prefer is that a new account has dozens of titles already published or else gives some sign that 2,000+ books will be ordered within the first few months. Which leaves out almost anyone just starting out."
I take your post with a pinch of salt. You have only just created your account and your only comments are in this thread. You claim to have sold thousands of books but do not have an author account or any books attached to your profile.I'll take the hard evidence of my experiences, and that of other authors I know, over unsubstantiated claims.
"Many bookstores won't stock POD books as there is no ability to return unsold stock. LSI is a better alternative if you want a physical presence on a store shelf."A.W.,
My question to open this discussion had this in mind. I believe if B&N would stock my book in some of their bookstores, they would sell. I understand why they don't like to buy from CreateSpace but I've heard bookstores don't readily stock any self-published book. What is your experience with this?
Like A.W., I checked out 'Ron' and discovered his is a brand new account and he appears to have no author account or books attached to profile. Puzzled by what his agenda could possibly be.
Ron, If you want people to believe you, give some back ground info. Like, links to where we can find your books, blogs, or author pages...
