THE Group for Authors! discussion
Publishing and Promoting
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Is anyone making money with Lightning Source print?
The B&N marketing program, however, does not consider PODs unless there has been a lot of media hype about the book.
My note is for those self-publishers reading A.W.'s post. and who use POD. Submitting will cost you a lot of time, postage and the cost of two books.
I’m so glad to have stumbled onto this discussion! Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed.I published my first ebook (Nine Lives of Adam Blake) in February through Amazon, Smashwords, and the Nook bookstore. It has sold well and received positive feedback as an ebook, but I’ve had dozens of potential customers ask when they can buy it in print. I’ve researched small publishing companies, considered short runs through CreateSpace and Blurb, but after reading this thread it sounds like Lightning Source may be my best option. My objective is to have a high-quality product that’s easily accessible by the local, independent bookstores with whom I’ve built a relationship. Does it sound like Lightning Source is for me? I’m fine with trading higher cost for higher quality, and if the only other “con” with LS is that the book may occasionally be out of stock (e.g. ships in 3 weeks) at Amazon, I think that’s something I can live with. If there’s anything else I’m missing please let me know. There are so many options & variables it can make a non-business-savvy writer’s head spin.
Oh, and a question regarding returns: CreateSpace does not allow returns and Lightning Source does, correct? Who eats the cost when retailers return the books? Lightning Source? The author?
Thanks!
The author eats the cost for any books returned.
Return costs are charged to the author, and I *think* from memory it is $1 or $2/per book, so it can add up fairly quickly.
Ryan - Lightning Source printed the ARCs for my debut novel recently, and I have to say the quality was great. The author does eat the cost for books returned normally. Before you choose a printer, ask to see:1) Cost and shipping estimates
2) A sample of a book they've printed (or some titles so you can go to your local book store or B&N and flip through them)
3) Samples of their paper stock (I recently had a printer send me samples of their 50# and 55# stock)
and ask them about how much time it takes between when they receive the order and when you receive the books.
Hope this helps...if I think of more, I'll let you know!
Thanks for the additional info. I'm not fretting over eating the cost of returns, I was just curious how that process works and how it is viewed by retailers. I'm still leaning toward using LS because having a high-quality product that I'm proud of is one of my main objectives in going the print route. I'm also planning to consult with some local indie stores I'm friendly with to find out what ordering process is most convenient and desirable for them.
I've been selling e-books since 2012. As an unknown author, I can't get a price point that makes physical books very sensible. However, I am starting to have the need for some physical books. I've checked out Createspace and Lighting Source and at the moment CreateSpace is winning. Why? They let me ask questions. Lighting Source wouldn't even take a question until I signed up for an account (which I may never use) and then gave me a response that they had 'received my submission and would let me know if they were going to grant me an account.' That I may not want based on the answers to my questions...
Has anyone had Amazon list print on demand books as temporarily out of stock? I have 3 paperbacks listed with them and two are out of stock. They are distributed by LSI and when I asked them if there was a problem printing they said no, and that Amazon could label availability however they wanted.
I'd suggest calling Amazon and asking them...it's the quickest way to find out...
Is there a number where you can reach them? I looked for one but couldn't find one. Technically I have no interaction with them; they deal with distributor directly and not me.
Had the same problem with my iUniverse book. Call Amazon author central by logging into your account first. They'll work through the problem with you.
Thanks so much Stanley and Glede. I shall contact Amazon and see what they say. My rep at LSI suggested to funnel buyers to Barnes and Noble who ship in 24 hours (whereas Amazon was saying 1-3 weeks before the books became unavailable)!
Amazon is known for telling buyers of indie books that aren't published by Create Space that the books are temporarily out of stock. Your rep at LSI gave you good advice.
Kathy wrote: "Has anyone had Amazon list print on demand books as temporarily out of stock? I have 3 paperbacks listed with them and two are out of stock. They are distributed by LSI and when I asked them if the..."I've had the same problem with Amazon. Please do let us know what Amaz tells you when you contact them.
Thanks for the informative thread, which now allows me to respond to friends complaining that it takes three weeks or more for delivery of books from Amazon. My memoir on the tsunami was published only two months and, initially, I thought the three week delay in delivery here in Japan was due to the distance. However, I have since heard from friends in California and Maryland with the same complaint. I will now recommend to one and all that orders be placed with Barnes and Noble for faster service.
I am starting a micro press, and I was prepared to go with LSI mostly because they use Ingram, who allows returns, which in turn opens up the possibility that Barnes might be willing to shelve a copy or two--something they won't do (I recently learned) if you use other POD companies. However, from what I'm reading here, going with LSI means I can't offer a Kindle copy of the books on Amazon? Is that correct?
Chris, you can have a Kindle ebook if you go with LSI. My question was in regards to the paperback. If you go with LSI for a print copy, you take a risk that Amazon will give your book a 1-3 week delivery date, or in my case, call the book temporarily out of stock when it isn't.
Ahhhh. Thanks! Just seems like LSI is the only way to go because of their connection to Ingram. An important point to also make is that since LSI uses Ingram and therefore accepts returns, the bookstores will allow you to do signings/readings. My first novel was published by The Univ. of West Alabama Press, and when I started booking readings at books stores, the first questioned they asked was: is the book distributed by Ingram or someone who allows returns? If it would have been published with someone like CreateSpace, they wouldn't have allowed me to do signings or readings there.
Also, it seems like Amazon's tendency to give your book a delivery date is fairly minor given the proliferation of e-books. In the last two years, my sales have turned almost completely to e-book sales.
Also, do you need a separate ISBN for the print version and for the e-book version?
Paul wrote: "Bookstores hate Amazon/Createspace. One alternative is Lightning Source/Ingram who distributes print books to bookstores worldwide. There's an option to accept returns from bookstores or not. I don..."Paul wrote: "Bookstores hate Amazon/Createspace. One alternative is Lightning Source/Ingram who distributes print books to bookstores worldwide. There's an option to accept returns from bookstores or not. I don..."
Cynthia wrote: I have taken seven books, two of my own, and five for a family-owned micro press, through Amazon, and two thru LS. We ultimately removed our books from LS as cost to royalties weren't worth it. I'm not sure why some say that the quality of LS books are better. We didn't find that to be true. Nor did we find that any bookstores ordered from LS. Ultimately, however, it was Createspace customer service that stood out.
Maybe I missed this above, but I saw an article where an author uses CreateSpace for print books with Amazon and then also uses LSI for print books at stores other than Amazon. She just doesn't chose the expanded distribution at CreateSpace. This prevents the delayed shipping at Amazon, and allows for use of LSI where you can accept returns. Has anyone tried this?
Thanks for this information Rebecca. I didn't know this was possible. It's another solution to my problem.
Chris wrote: "Also, do you need a separate ISBN for the print version and for the e-book version?"Yes, every different format needs a unique ISBN number, as bookstores reference to it to ensure that they deliver the format the customer orders.
I use Ingramspark for a print version to sell to bookstores, and use Createspace for both print and ebook to sell to Amazon customers. I designate the standard industry discount of 55% for bookstores. Since my book was only recently published, I haven't yet sold to bookstores, but have my book on consignment at a local store where I live.
what do you mean by "delayed shipping at Amazon"?
Cynthia, 'Delayed shipping' is a reference to Amazon's expected time to deliver a book, which is generally grossly over-estimated when it comes to books they aren't printing. According to Amazon, they give a lengthy estimate because they have no control over when they'll get the book to ship. However, when they give a 1-3 week estimate, or call a book 'temporarily out of print' while B&N at the same time says the book ships within 24 hours, there's a disconnect.
our own experience doesn't bear this out. Createspace shipping and new book shipping from Amazon is always exactly as their terms promise. Amazon's used book shippers are independent businesses. You must be referring to Amazon's dispute with Hatchete which likely does not apply to anyone in this discussion.
I use CreateSpace (POD paperback), KDP (kindle ebook) and Ingram (POD paperback for retail outlets). Here's a little of my experience. If your Ingram POD sells better than your CreateSpace POD on Amazon, Amazon's search will direct buyers to the Ingram version (or which ever version is selling best). I can locate my CreateSpace POD using the ISBN number in Amazon's search, but not by title (I only get Ingram's POD). In terms of Ingram, they ARE Lightning Source and for the indie author IngramSpark, which is what I use.
I'm currently thinking of moving everything to Ingram as they can do everything CreateSpace/Ingram can do, but also have wider distribution channels for both POD and ebooks.
I did an analysis of POD purchases for my own use and even though the unit price is less through CreateSpace, their shipping/handling costs are double Ingram.
Hope this helps.
W., Thanks for the information. May I ask how long Amazon is saying the Ingram book will take to ship? What about the Create Space book? Do I understand correctly that on the Amazon homepage, whichever book is selling the most appears and you can only find the other book by the ISBN?
I don't know how long the Ingram book will take to ship. I think I'll buy one and see for myself. And, yes, the CRS book can only be found by ISBN. In fact, I talked with Ingram today and they said that CRS has taken my book off there print schedule, meaning that as long as the Ingram book is listed on Amazon CRS won't try to compete. But then why should they: they get a cut without having to invest anything in the production process.
Thanks for the feedback, W. You've helped me decide whether or not to add CRS to LSI and I think not. In my experience the Amazon estimate of delivery is way over exaggerated. I know I think twice about ordering a book that has a 3 week shipping date.
The info has been very helpful. I don't mind the return fee and I think my book would sell better in brick and mortar shops, so I'll be looking into LSI. Thanks!
Kathy wrote: "Thanks so much Stanley and Glede. I shall contact Amazon and see what they say. My rep at LSI suggested to funnel buyers to Barnes and Noble who ship in 24 hours (whereas Amazon was saying 1-3 week..."I'm happy to report that Amazon fixed the problem. They were prompt to reply and now the POD books are available without a back-order or delay.
What does it cost to just put titles on Lightning Source?
Besides the regular things, It's been a year since my last book, so I'm counting on my memory, but it's either $40 each or $125 for both paperback & Hardcover formats...But it's in that price range. That's using your own ISBN#, and your book has to be print ready...otherwise, I think they may have services available if you need them.
For a paperback it costs $75 to upload the cover file and text file (37.50 for each). Then there is an annual fee of $20 ( I think! It's not much).
I know this is topic old, but my current experience with LSI is puzzling. The good: quality of print books outstanding. My book "An Architect's Guide to Construction - Tales from the Trenches" is a nonfiction guide to construction for architects - 200+ diagrams, 70 chapters, LSI have done a great job. This type of book will sell more paperback than ebook, as it is pretty much a reference. It is available on Kindle and will be an epub shortly.Here's the problem: as a Canadian I selected for the paperback $35 list prices in Canada, the US and Australia - I'm just taking less royalty in Canada and Australia. I also selected a 40% trade discount. Now it seems LSI is offering the book to booksellers in Canada, including Amazon.ca, through the Ingram Group at a 20% trade discount off US$35. Given the 20% currency discount, that means Canadian booksellers are being offered the book effectively at CDN$35, so naturally they are marking it up by 20% and I am back to the "Canadians pay more" scenario, not to mention the book clearly says $35 CAD on its back, and I clearly selected that price with LSI. I feel like an idiot!
This is all emerging in the past few days as the pricing anomalies have surfaced and I have been drilling through the LSI bureaucracy, so far with little success. Has anyone had similar issues?
I use Lighting Source solely for the POD print version of my memoir: 13,760 Feet--My Personal Hole in the Sky. It appears on Amazon and I sell about a dozen or so copies each month. It's the only place where my 6x9 paperback is sold without my author's signature inside, so I know this is where my books come from when readers ask me to sign their copy (an immensely gratifying, albeit rare, occurrence).http://www.amazon.com/13-760-Feet-Per...
I recall the setup process was a bit lengthy, and not entirely intuitive, but manageable. Since sitting it up though, there has been no maintenance except a yearly Ingram fee.
I'm not trying to promote Lightning Source over any other service. I only mention that my relationship with them is a good one.
Cheers, Mark L. Berry
Airline pilot / Author / Contributing Editor for Airways Magazine
WelcomeYour objective is similar of min, but the difference is that you talk about marketing,but For the author How can marketing his books؟؟؟.
in all cases, it is similar problem, but we did not find a solution.
thanks
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I just want to thank every single one of you for the informative "hive" discussion on self-publishing options. I am considering getting my feet wet with self-pub and want to place my money in the best venue. Looks like Lightning Source is the way to go. I'm an editor myself, and fairly well versed in graphics design, so (I hope) I can make self-pub a go of it for my next short contemporary romance. You guys all ROCK. Thanks again!
Nicki, thanks for the compliments . One follow up comment - I have ironed out my issues with LS, continue to have issues with Amazon. I have set up a paypal account connected to Ingram, allows me to offer my book for $10 less than through the distribution channels I was complaining about above . I remain much happier with LS/Ingram than with Amazon. Go for it !
Thanks Brian! I appreciate the extra insight!
Even if writers are not making money with LS, certainly folks at LS are, hand over fist.
From what I understand there are 2 ways to have your book stocked (or 3 if you include traditional deal/big publisher/nationwide distribution.)
One is to establish a relationship with your local B&N or bookstore and have them stock your books on consignment. You only get paid when the books sell, but the store doesn't have any outlay as you provide the books and can obviously take back any unsold stock.
I live in New Zealand, so couldn't walk into a B&N and ask, so went about it another way. B&N have a submission process that I went through. You submit 2 copies of your paperback along with a marketing plan. They evaluate whether or not they will carry your book. It takes a couple of months to go through their process. My book was approved last year, meaning it is now in their internal computer system as being available for stores to order. The advantage of going through that process is it takes you out of the slush of the Ingram Catalog (which has thousands of titles). I am told my book is stocked in about 25-30 B&N stores.
Bookstores want to stock books that sell and just like gaining visibility on Amazon, you need a well thought out marketing plan. You need to show how your book is selling overall, identify your target audience and show how you will direct customers to the store.