Transgressive Fiction discussion
Is transgressive really a genre?
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There will always be overlaps. I hear what you say, the similar has been said of dystopian. Transgressive for me has its roots more in reality than say noir or dystopian that can often be even zombie crap. Transgressive I like because things get worse, or at the end, little has improved.I like to think of it as a genre that is little known. In my book, you never know the main protagonists name to keep with with what I feel is transgressive. It is a tough one to label though!
Genre exists primarily as a marketing tool to sell books to people who like a certain type of book. What it comes down to is this -- a lot of great literature deals with the underdogs and those not living by the rules of polite society. Going back to early novels there's Moll Flanders and more. I would argue that a work like Crime and Punishment fits the bill. You can't lump all "transgressive novels" into one genre. Some are erotic, some literary, some are mysteries, some dark comedies. People who like reading transgressive fiction will recognize it.
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I've been away...but I'm back. Been on my own transgressive journey! Anyway I agree with Marion, but I can see where you are coming from Michael.
For me transgressive is a genre by attitude rather than story. Be it in ]Fight Club,Post Office , American Psychoetc. the protagonists are all pissed off with the norm and express themselves in ways that normal society struggles with or is just plain illegal!
The reason that I embrace it as a genre is that I find most non transgressive material watery, no guts 'n' balls. I like stories of the loner living by a usually dubious and anti-social code. They all have a f**ked up moral compass. e.g. Aqua boy in Geek Love
I don't like books with straight, moral cliché heroes.
So in my eyes transgressive is a genre of attitude not story, is isn't limited. Well that's my opinion...for what it's worth Ha!
By the way, I like the way hardly anyone comes to this group, shows our general apathetic attitude!
Redroc wrote: "Marion wrote: "some are mysteries, some dark comedies. People who like reading transgressive fiction will recognize it..."I've been away...but I'm back. Been on my own transgressive journey! An..."
Thanks for keeping the thread alive, Redroc! I guess we are somewhat apathetic.
You make some great points re: genre. Really appreciate seeing the other perspective on this one.
And thanks to Marion and you for mentioning Geek Love. I'll have to check it out.
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Geek Love was on my TBR for years, I wish I had read it sooner, but also glad that I got around to it. It could have just been a shallow curiosity, but it is so so much more. The depth and development of the characters, the epic story line, the vivid description....oh I'll have to read it again as well!
& Aqua Boy, up there as one of the most selfish bizarre characters...ever! Just love it!!!
Michael, you make some interesting points. Transgressive work is often confused for other genres. It appears to be more of an attitude or a type than a genre specifically -- as you say, these works are often mistaken for noir, horror, dark comedy, crime, and they don't all fit together under a single genre. But if the term can lead them to more readers, it is probably good.
Maybe it can be considered a sub-genre. Who cares? We know what we're talking about. We're on the same page, here. So clearly, there's something identifiable as transgressive, and it is involved in fiction. Genre? Apples and oranges.
I think it’s contemporary dark fiction, built on the backbone of classic noir and hardboiled fiction, but it’s evolved to be so much more than that. It's become genre-bending subgenre that has roots in edgy literary fiction, as well as fantasy, science fiction, and horror. It also touches on niche storytelling like magical realism, slipstream, and the grotesque. There is a movement out there, right now, an attitude like mentioned in the thread above, one that has been heating up over the last ten years, all which have transpired into the making trangressive fiction.
Agreed, Ipsith. I feel like transgressive writing has been out there for a while, but in the last decade or two has been refined to a far more identifiable and recognizable (although slim) genre. It's interesting to see how many people in publishing have never actually heard of it.
What are your opinions on the future outlook of transgressive fiction? Do you think it will steadily grow in terms of popularity as time goes on? Will it be a trend that people are into for a while, then not into, then into it again and etc.? "The reason that I embrace it as a genre is that I find most non transgressive material watery, no guts 'n' balls. I like stories of the loner living by a usually dubious and anti-social code. They all have a f**ked up moral compass." Redroc, I couldn't agree with you more. I open up these self-help books and other crap out there and just end up burning the goddamm things in my garage after reading one too many sappy lines...the page that never got turned burnt there on the floor in front of me. If any of you are transgressive fiction authors I am game to purchase your books or short stories and check them out.
I think that genres are constantly evolving as far as entertainment and art goes. Now while it would be easier to simply put books into a broad genre, I do thik that as more people write, it becomes harder to do. I don't know about everyone above you Jerry, but my opinion would be that as more things happen with the mistrusting of government, the exposition of other lifestyles, and the continual growth in disparity between socio-economic classes, the transgressive fiction genre will continue to grow. However, popularity is something of what the people want. That, I don't know. As Orwell first wrote 1984 making it one of the first Dystopian novels in modern times, it took a while for such a genre to thrive as it is doing now. But we must always keep in mind that the fringe of today is the popular of tomorrow and the mundane of the day after tomorrow. And as for me, I wrote a book entitled The Provocateur, which as I have read, fits well into this transgressive category. But be forewarned, I have had multiple reviewers tell me they were unable to finish it because they found it too repulsive and that truly isn't a sales tactic (it is only one dollar on Amazon Kindle. You can check it out here if you want: http://www.amazon.com/The-Provocateur... .
I am looking to give away a free copy of my book, Blind View Drive, in exchange for a review on Amazon. If anyone is interested please let me know.
I would say that transgressive is more a way of life than a literary genre. Or you could say it is a literary genre that primarily concerns itself with stories by and about people who are disposed to committing transgressions of one sort or another. A literary work may be transgressive whether it is happy or sad, mysterious or science-fictional.
I know Charlie Houston (who I am NOT proud to admit I've never read) is often considered transgressive and writes supernatural characters. Here's my question (not worth starting a thread about, but would love the discussion) : Can vampires be considered transgressive? Aren't they by definition? I'm not talking about sparkly, emo-vamps. I'm talking about dark creatures of the night who kill people. Historically, the first vamp novel -- Camila, used vampirism as a metaphor for lesbian sex, which was certainly transgressive at the time.Any thoughts?
There are so many books about vampires now it is probably transgressive to not be a vampire.I think transgressive fiction is always evolving, I'm sure Camilla would have been considered transgressive in its time but being a lesbian is not really a taboo anymore. Once something becomes acceptable it has to be kicked out of the genre.
I think transgressive fiction is always evolving, I'm sure Camilla would have been considered transgres..." I'd argue against throwing novels out because our perceptions have changed. I'd vote that if behavior was transgressive at the time -- the novel is still transgressive. But aside from that, seriously,if you look at vamps as a secret society that in addition to killing people and sucking their blood do other things "outside" the norms, mores, and rules, then are they transgressive? Don't know if folks here have read Charlie Houston's stuff but it might be useful to discuss.
Post-transgressive?Still not sure a vampire would be transgressive, cos the killing and sucking is what they do to survive, Blade could be transgressive though. Not read any Charlie Houston, will go check him out now.
The Transgressive genre continues to evolve, but not sure it will ever have a place for the paranormal (vampires etc). Vampires that are 'normal' people, who believe they are vampires and/or drink human blood as a recreational activity or act of rebellion would be a different matter. I have never read any Charlie Houston books - will check them out.
Ok, I've thought more about vamps as transgressive characters and also about the lack of female characters in transgressive fiction and somehow I think -- vamps are transgressive BUT Twilight and post twilight is NOT as it's all about repression as virtue. Also blogged about it if anyone wants to read it (http://www.blooddiva.com/vamps-not-li...)
Spooky I was thinking about this last week. Nice blog by the way enjoyed reading that.Still not sold on vampires being transgressive, but have you read the Anne Rice books? I think Lestat is definitely a transgressive character. His self destructive nature and that he will hurt anybody he cares about just to get what he wants puts him in the running for being included.
Haven't read Rice in years, but yeah -- Lestat is a way transgressive and don't forget he gets in trouble for living outside of vampire norms as well as human ones.
VM wrote: "Ok, I've thought more about vamps as transgressive characters and also about the lack of female characters in transgressive fiction and somehow I think -- vamps are transgressive BUT Twilight and p..."I enjoyed the blog post, thanks. Very convincing arguments, but I am still not convinced about vampires being Transgressive.
People can disagree. I'm not saying ALL vampire fiction is transgressive. In Dracula, for instance, the Count (and his brides) are an evil threat and order must be restored. But Rice makes a case for her vamps as the ultimate outsiders and their otherness is transcendent. I'm suggesting that they not be ruled out as transgressive only because (1) they don't actually exist and (2) it's their nature to act a certain way.Just thought of something else: Take the opposite view. Why wouldn't an erotic tale about a sweet young virgin embarking on an BDSM relationship with her dark master be transgressive? Experiencing sexual pain as a means of reaching great pleasure would be considered transgressing from the norm, wouldn't it? Yet, Fifty Shades is NOT transgressive in the least. It affirms the values of the norm. Christian just needs a patient, loving, normal girl to cure him.
There is a list on here the best transgressive books, so far I have read 2 I don't think should be on there.1984: this one is dystopian, he is a bit of a rebel but that's it. Is it included because of when it was written? Subject matter is pretty intense for the time.
The Rum Diary: nothing transgressive about this, they drink rum and get into a few fights. I think this has been included because it is Hunter S Thompson who wrote it.
Hey VM just noticed that you have edited your last post, I think the only way that you could include BDSM is if the person isn't into it and it is forced onto them...Hmmmmm.....Maybe fifty shades should be included. haha
Given the choice between BDSM and vampires, I'd go with the BDSM. The Transgressive genre is so vague that you could make an argument to include nearly any book.
Felcherman wrote: "There is a list on here the best transgressive books, so far I have read 2 I don't think should be on there.1984: this one is dystopian, he is a bit of a rebel but that's it. Is it included beca..."
Good point about the Rum Diary. Authors get labelled as Transgressive and so do all their books. I would argue that Damned and Doomed are not really Transgressive, despite the fact that Palahniuk wrote them.
Transgressive Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
The Provocateur (other topics)Geek Love (other topics)
Fight Club (other topics)
Post Office (other topics)
American Psycho (other topics)
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That said, until I found this group, I had never heard about a genre called transgressive.
I found this group by searching authors: Bret Easton Ellis, Douglas Coupland, Chuck Palahniuk, Charles Bukowski, etc.
The first two, Ellis and Coupland, were of particular interest to me since several readers had told me that my book had some similarities with those writers. But honestly, I didn't see it because 1) I've never been able to place those writers into a genre and 2) I wasn't so sure about grouping them together.
Here's why: I tend to think of genre in terms of story. Now, I realize that there's a lot more to genre than just story, but as a reader and a writer, I'm not that interested in lit criticism. Academic discussions about things like genre are really important, but they don't help me write a better story, and they don't help me discover new books.
And that brings me to my question about transgressive being a genre. While I see many thematic similarities between authors who fall under the transgressive banner, I'm not sure that their stories are similar enough to be grouped together in the same way that you'd put thrillers or sci-fi together. Again, I'm speaking purely from a story perspective.
To me, transgressive is about busting genre wide open. I've heard several transgressive authors talk about how their work is often mistaken for noir, or thriller, or horror. Heck, I'd even add dark comedy when you think about BEE, but in the lit world, dark comedy usually tells you more about tone than story.
Personally, I chose to play with elements of crime, noir, mystery, and stoner (if that's really a genre). I also used a lot of dark comedy. But I never thought of myself as transgressive until I started reading up on the topic. Now that I have, I see what some of my readers were talking about. And while it's nice to have a label if it helps new readers find the book, the transgressive label has its limits because it doesn't really say anything about the kind of story you're going to get.