2. THOMAS JEFFERSON: THE ART OF POWER - CHAPTERS 4 - 6 (37 - 75) ~ November 26th - December 2nd - No Spoilers, Please

[Bryan]

This might be an interesting question to ask the author, his take on the Walker episode.

[Debi]

I had to go back and reread Chapter 3. As I was reading through the 2nd week chapters, I was trying to figure out at what point Great Britain began to really take an interest in the Colonies, especially between the first settlement up to Jefferson's time. I now understand how and why it all began because I was a little fuzzy on the issue. If history repeats itself, Great Britain maybe should have taken lessons from the Roman conquests.

I find it fascinating that slavery was an issue during this time period, especially to Jefferson since he was a slave owner. I wonder what sparked his interest in this area?

[Scriptor Ignotus]

I have found Jefferson's historical views to be very interesting. Meacham quotes Jefferson alluding to the Anglo-Saxon conquerors of Britain as the bringers of a great new society and system of laws (p.71). He seemed to see the American colonists in the same light - exiles from a decadent society ushering in a renewal of freedom and civilization. It reminds me of his famous quote that the tree of liberty must be periodically refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots. I read somewhere that he designed a great seal for the United States that depicted Moses and the Israelites on one side, and the Anglo-Saxon warlords Horsa and Hengist on the other. Quite interesting.

Regarding Jefferson's age as well: he was a burgess in his mid-twenties, one of the intellectual leaders of the colonies and elected to the continental congress at 31, and authored the Declaration of Independence at 33. It's remarkable to think of how much history has been made by the young.

[Bryan]

Debi wrote: "I had to go back and reread Chapter 3. As I was reading through the 2nd week chapters, I was trying to figure out at what point Great Britain began to really take an interest in the Colonies, espe..."

I also thought technology (lack of speedy communications) played in role in all this. You wonder earlier on if both sides sat down over the phone or even telegram, how things would have changed. Commanders and royal governors were pretty independent.

Regarding slavery, I image once he started reading books about rights, TJ's interest in slavery as institution was sparked. We don't know what his father thought about slavery. He didn't have anything in the will about freeing his slaves.

[Bryan]

Travis wrote: "I have found Jefferson's historical views to be very interesting. Meacham quotes Jefferson alluding to the Anglo-Saxon conquerors of Britain as the bringers of a great new society and system of la..."

So true, Travis, it must have been a scary but exciting time to be young.

[Marc]

I think the primary reason why the English govt was so crappy against the colonists were twofold:
1) Paying the costs of the 7 years war (Americans call it the French and Indian war), which was effectively a world war, with fighting in Europe, India, Africa, and the Americas. Anyhoo, the English were a major player, and borrowed lots of money to fight.
2) maintain English armies in America. It costs money to raise armies, arm them, train them, and send them overseas to build/maintain forts, interact with Native American tribes and hostile French/Spanish settlements, etc.

[Bryan]

Indeed, Marc, it was an expensive venture as the government took more of a role in the colony over the decades.

The Seven Years War created a lot of taxes. Plus, the British hired Germans to fight their war, which was common back then. All costs more and more money.

[Alisa]

Recently started reading and a little behind the rest of the group. I'll catch up, hopefully soon.

Enjoying the book very much and Meacham's writing and story telling style is terrific. I am getting a sense of TJ's intellect, influences from his early life, and his contrasting level of skill as a writer and at interpersonal communication. There is something unsettling about his relationship with women. He has the gift of charm (don't all great politicians have this gift?) but in some instances is completely off (such as with Mrs. Walker), yet his courtship with his wife seems so genuine. Early in the book Meacham mentions there is very little information about TJ's mother. Makes me wonder what their relationship was like.

It's hard to think about what life was like in the early colonial days, how did people think about government and what role it should/should not have in their daily lives. We think government moves slow now - can't imagine what it was like before modern industrial communication conveniences. It must have taken months for word of anything to get around!

[Marc]

Especially from overseas! Plus, there's no guarantee of a message actually arriving, should the ship that your letter was sent on sunk, got captured by pirates or by ships capturing trading ships that are headed to enemy ports, etc., let alone letters intercepted by British soldiers (or colonists, it went both ways).

For instance, John Adams had a private letter where he was complaining about one of his fellow Congressmen (pre-revolutionary war), John Dickinson, saying Dickinson was 'a piddling genius'. It was intercepted by the British and forwarded to Tory (loyalist) newspapers, which printed the letter. Lots of people were pissed at Adams! I guess technically, in that case, the message arrived, but to too many people!! See McCullough's book on John Adams, Chapter 2 for the John Adams letter interception!

David McCullough

[Alisa]

Marc wrote: "Especially from overseas! Plus, there's no guarantee of a message actually arriving, should the ship that your letter was sent on sunk, got captured by pirates or by ships capturing trading ships t..."

Marc that is a great story. "Piddling genius" - what a great turn of phrase. With things like that happening it makes you wonder what all was lost.

[Bryan]

Alisa wrote: "Recently started reading and a little behind the rest of the group. I'll catch up, hopefully soon.

Enjoying the book very much and Meacham's writing and story telling style is terrific. I am get..."

Glad to have you here, Alisa.

I get that same sense that he really met his soul mate in Martha, his wife.

Can you image creating a government and living in a world of true local government?

[Bryan]

Marc wrote: "Especially from overseas! Plus, there's no guarantee of a message actually arriving, should the ship that your letter was sent on sunk, got captured by pirates or by ships capturing trading ships t..."

John Quincy Adams, I believe, lost or nearly lost letters while traveling overseas. It is like you dropped your laptop in the ocean and had no back-up!

[Tomerobber]

Not having read anything in any detail about TJ before I am enjoying this book but unfortunately for me . . . the elephant in the room is the whole issue with slavery. No matter how much I attempt to put it into context of the time in which it occurred . . . it keeps interceding into my thoughts as I read.

I have great difficulty understanding how someone with the perspicacity to make this observation as an older adult . . .

The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal . . . The parent storms, the child looks on, catches the lineaments of wrath, puts on the same airs in the circle of smaller slaves, gives a loose to his worst of passions, and thus nursed, educated, and daily exercised in tyranny, cannot but be stamped by it with odious peculiarities. p. 9

and this observation by Meacham on p. 47 . . .
The ability to apply what one thought in order to shape how one felt, however, was another, more difficult thing. Thomas Jefferson had this ability: His head and his heart were contiguous regions of his character with open boarders. Plenty of philosophical men live in abstract regions, debating types and shadows. The rarer sort is the reader and thinker who can see the world whole.
and his participation in the Howell v. Netherland case which led to this argument, "everyone comes into the world with a right to his own person and using it at his own will," Jefferson said. "This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the author of nature, because it is necessary for his own sustenance ."

. . . is capable of compartmentalizing his feelings to such a degree that slavery becomes almost a non-issue. I'm seriously hoping that by some miracle . . after finishing this book my opinion may be altered . . . but Meacham is going to have to convince me . . . I'm a skeptic.

[Ann D]

Tomerobber,
It's very difficult for me to understand as well. However, TJ's wealth was entirely based on the slavery system. He had expensive tastes and as he got further and further into debt, he had even less financial leeway. I think that he justified keeping and selling slaves because he also believed that they were intellectually inferior to whites and couldn't succeed on their own.

I am reading The Hemingses of Monticello. Both he and his father-in-law had slave mistresses, and many of the offspring worked in the household at Monticello. He did free his own children and some of his wife's half-siblings, but the rest of his slaves were out of luck. Unlike Washington, he did not free his slaves when he died. He couldn't afford to.

In his own way, he did help many of the Hemings slaves who were related to him and his wife. His own children were only 1/8 black, and three of them later passed as white.

by Annette Gordon-Reed

[Bryan]

Thanks, Tomerobber, I hear what you are saying, and I think you need to discover the answer for yourself.

When people visit Monticello, usually one of the top three questions visitors always ask relates to TJ's position on slavery and this dichotomy. It really is hard to grasp, but I have seen first-hand how people can compartmentalize things in their lives.

Ann said it well: he needed those slaves for his livelihood. Maybe it is something deeper, too, the southern culture of slavery all around you, everyday since you were born that stopped him from not freeing his own slaves. The other thing Meacham argues is that TJ did not push hard when he felt national sentiment wasn't there. Would he abolish the slave trade, then gradual elimination of slavery all together, yes. Yet, he was not an abolitionist that kept pushing the issue regardless of public opinion. TJ was a national politician with many causes to fight, so he backed down. So what does that look like after 200 years...not so good as we can see by asking these questions. Some people argue it is a great character flaw...he didn't stick to his guns, etc.

But on the other side of the ledger, Lincoln used TJ's words to fight against slavery, and this is something we also need to remember.

[G]

I agree that it is an elephant in the room, but he was so complex, I need to see his conflict with slave labor, (he was aware of it, I think) and move past the economics of commerce in humans (I can't believe I am saying this) to look at the essence of his power and how it moved us on the path the US is on today. It is ostrich like behavior, but I have to do it to move along in the book.

[Bryan]

Indeed, G, slavery is a complex mix of prejudice and economics. We might not hear about this issue until later in TJ's life, but my memory is a little rusty.

[Lewis]

Chapter 4, page 40, says, "Given the risks he was taking..." TJ reminds me of Bill Clinton in some ways. He seemed to have a large appetite for a number of things...politics, new ideas, philosophy, engaging people, getting to know women...and he was not easily turned away.

[Bryan]

Interesting, Lewis. I haven't thought about the parallel with Clinton and TJ. I'm sure Clinton would be pleased to hear this. He actually admired TJ and started his inauguration tour at Monticello. He traveled the same route TJ did to accept the presidency in D.C.

[Marc]

Lol, good and apt comment about Clinton Lewis!

[Clayton]

I like the comparison with Clinton but to me it would be FDR and his life long relationships with women like Missy LeHand, Martha Princess of Norway and Lucy Mercer. Clinton got caught but FDR and those around him seemed to take it stride, with the exception of Eleanor of course and after she came into her on I am not sure she cared. Anything to keep the boss happy.

[Miranda]

I wonder if Patty's ability to run a complex household reminded TJ of his own mother.

[Alisa]

Miranda wrote: "I wonder if Patty's ability to run a complex household reminded TJ of his own mother."

Good question. It must at least have been a desired skill given the extent of his holdings.

[Bryan]

And many women had to learn those skills as girls.

[Vivien]

First of all I have to say I'm a little behind as I have just moved to California and the move has consumed me for the last few weeks. I'm especially embarassed I was one of the privileged people that got the book free. However, I have read the first few chapters, and tonight, having FINALLY moved into our new house I will curl up in bed and read ahead to catch up.

However, I love Meacham's style, sometimes history can be written in a very dry manner and that is not so with this book.

I have always loved reading about TJ , I always thought he was a very complex man, and I can't imagine the bravery and courage that it took to be one of the ones establishing our government and in essence the foundation of our country.

I am loving this book especially because it is written in a way that makes me see TJ in a totally different way, and as a brilliant yet vulnerable human being.

The issue of slavery with him is complex and I'm not sure anyone will ever figure it out as far as he's concerned. He was such a visionary in so many ways, and yet he had some issues he seemed to tolerate and be a little blind about. But then I think we all do in our lives.

I'm not sure if the thing with women goes with the presidency (;-) or with the issue that some men have when they become the most powerful person in the world. I have actually known many men and women both who have had great moral compasses and have fallen when they reached a position of power.

Anyway, I will keep reading and catch up, and I am so excited to be part of this group!

[Alisa]

Vivien I love your comments, and much of what you describe reflects my early thoughts regarding this book. I too am looking forward to reading more. I have to admit to being intrigued with TJ but very conflicted about his views on slavery and treatment of women. I suspect this author will shed light on this and other aspects of this interesting and powerful man.

[Bryan]

Thanks, Vivian, no worries.

[Greg]

Mark wrote: "Bryan wrote: "We do sense a world of contradictions: somewhat awkward young man, but flirts with Elizabeth Walker, a married woman. What are your thoughts as you read about this flirtation?"

Was ..."
I was frankly shocked by this. Everything I had heard about Jefferson led me to believe he would have more closely guarded his feelings and reputation. This is a glimpse into the man as fully human, valuing this relationship above his political career. My question would be whether he felt the risk to his reputation and proceeded anyway, or whether he proceeded blindly.

[Bryan]

Yeah, I understand TJ as someone who had a strong check on his emotions, but at times, would write out those emotions in his letters.

But then I think, we don't have oral histories, can't talk to people who knew TJ. What we learn from him are mostly documents. It colors our perspective.

[Frederick]

Speaking from a male's point of view - TJ was like most men, at times they think using the wrong head. Even though he kept his feelings in check politically, I believe personally he harbored deep emotions that escaped through his writings.

Come to think of it, not much has changed in regards to sex and politics since TJ's day. Politicians still take the chance on ruining their careers on affairs.

[Bryan]

Thanks, Frederick. What you say makes sense.

[Donna]

I, too, thought TJ's advances toward Alice Walker were obsessive and icky. What bothers me most is the disloyalty he was showing to his so-called closest friend.

He seemed eventually to find his soulmate in Patty. I often wondered about her deathbed request that he not remarry; didnt' know that it likely was based on her desire to shield her children from any future unhappiness with stepmothers.

[Bryan]

Me neither, Donna. I wonder if they talked about that at any time before that moment. She was sick before...

[Ann D]

Donna,
I think that deathbed promise was a bit strange. Of course, if Jefferson did remarry and have more children, at best that would mean less for her children to inherit. At worst, it could mean a bad stepmother and a favored position for the new children. On the other hand, due to death in child birth, there were many stepmothers in that society. Surely, many - if not most - of them must have been good.

I suspect she was more worried about being replaced in Jefferson's affections.

[Donna]

Ann, I have to agree that explanation makes more sense.

[Alisa]

I need to look at the notes about Patty's last words in this regard. It certainly is plausible and the various reasons for it have some level of credibility. What I find odd in all of this is Jefferson's relationship with women generally. Frankly he seems conflicted and a bit tortured when interacting with females. Patty seemed to have a grip on this man, powerful as he was, but I have to think at some level her reported last words served a convenient purpose for him. It causes me to wonder if there were liberties taken in the recounting of this event, not by the author, but by TJ.

[Ann D]

Alisa and Donna,
The Hemingses of Monticello byAnnette Gordon-Reed says that the Hemings family, some of whom were present at Martha's deathbed, told this story. I don't know if the white family did as well.

It is well-established that Jefferson went into a very deep depression after his wife's death. Joseph Ellis in American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson speculates that Jefferson did not want to open himself to such pain again by remarrying: "He would never expose his soul to such pain again; he would rather be lonely than vulnerable." (p.79)

Of course, there was always Sally Hemings, too. We can never know the exact emotional content of that relationship, but it lasted for such a long time that it must have been important.

Alisa, I agree that Jefferson's relationships with women seem strange by our standards.

Annette Gordon-Reed
American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson Joseph J. Ellis

[Bryan]

Sad that the correspondence between TJ and his wife were destroyed.

[Donna]

Ann, thanks for the info. Both of the books you mentioned are on my TBR list.

[Ann D]

I think you will enjoy them, Donna.

[Patricrk]

All the people dying so young! Jefferson may have only been 33 when he wrote the D of I but he was probably starting to be considered early middle aged. He already had had friends his own age die. From this side of modern medicine it is hard to believe how dangerous ordinary living was in those days. The majority of the money spent on the 7 years war was probably spent in Europe. I'm sure huge sums were paid to subsidize Fredrick the Great to stay in the war against France. While the spark that started the war may have been in America, both sides had been piling kindling and dousing it with oil prior to that time.

[Bryan]

Good point, Patricrk. A 33 year old back then probably went through much more in life than today.