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Infinite Jest
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Infinite Jest - Chunky- Discussion thread
Petra, I fear that a re-read of Ulysses would put me into a coma; I think my brain would simply short circuit. Thanks for finding those acid references. No wonder why I missed them if they were that short. James may have thrown the acid? Wow, this family puts the func into dysfunctional.
I'm guessing about James throwing the acid. It hadn't occurred to me before, Irene, but when I reread the bit about him making Joelle watch an apology-scene, it makes me wonder if he tossed the acid (and why he would do that!!). Guess we'll find out.
Amy wrote: "I would just like to reiterate how awesome Petra is as a discussion leader for finding these references!"Thanks, Amy!
I haven't underlined in a book in a decade or longer. This book is so full of underlines!! A reread would be interesting so that I can chuckle at some of the red-herrings and/or (maybe) be surprised at some of the things I underlined.
Petra wrote: "Could the circles at the beginning of the chapters have something to do with the Entertainment? On page 483 it says that some cartridges are "stamped also with a circle and arc that resembled a dis..."Petra - I think we're at the same place in this book! I just read about the circles on the tapes as well. I think the circles as chapter headings are certainly related to this, but may have multiple meanings (some which we have not discovered yet).
Irene wrote: "Petra, I fear that a re-read of Ulysses would put me into a coma; I think my brain would simply short circuit. ..."I'm looking forward to rereading Ulysses one day. By the time I got to the end, I was quite enjoying it. I know I missed more than I got, though.
I really enjoyed the chapter with the birth: the way the language changed/grew from a mid-English type, old-time language to a modern, slangy language by the end of the chapter, while at the same time the talk was of gestation, growth and birth, while at the same time the woman was in the hospital giving birth.
Wow!
Petra you are awesome, you are doing a fabulous job.They would have to shoot me before a reread of Ulysses......but, that being said, every time I hear a reference to Ulysses it makes me smile and a little bit more literate.
Thanks, everyone. It's fun reading this book with you all. I'm glad I'm helping pull things along.The following is chock-full of spoilers if you haven't read to the end of the episode with the Antitoi Brothers in their shop, "Antitoi Entertainent" (page 480-489). Please don't peek until then.
(view spoiler)
I've updated the above spoiler post. The Antitoi event must have happened in November because Joelle od's on Nov. 7th and enters Ennis House shortly thereafter. DFW is tricky with the dates in this book.
Petra wrote: "Rebecca, thank you! I thought there was some reason for thinking they probably didn't have an affair but couldn't remember it. I reread footnote 80 last night. Yup....very clear. There was no affai..."Yes, too many details to remember all of them! And you're right also with all the characters: they are a lot, and amed - on purpose I think - differently!!!
DFW is truly messing with us, Laura. He's throwing in all sorts of confusing, mirror-effect type of twists with his wording that can really throw us off. I'm glad we're all reading this together. It means we can remember more of the nitty-gritty details.
Summary (pages 380-508)"O" 8Nov YDAU - Gaudeamus Igitur
- annual showing of Mario's puppet film of Jim's "ONANiad".
- Lyle's role as confesser/confidante.
- Mario's newsreel of real & fake news summaries about events leading to Interdependence and Subsidized time.
- James'; films "The Medusa v. The Odalisque" and "The Joke" (his most hated film).
- Eric Clipperton
- history on US advertising & home entertainment options.
30 Apr/1 May YDAU
- Maranthe & Steeply converse on individual freedom vs. societal freedom
- Eric Clipperton, con't
- Don Gately's menial job
- more of Mario's Interdependence Day film.
"O" YDAU
- Tough Shit But You Still Can't Drink Group meeting.
- the steps of recovery: God, pain, re-experiencing memories.
Very Late Oct YDAU
- Hal has a nightmare
- Mario misses Madame Psychosis' radio show.
9 Nov YDAU
- early AM training drills.
- Don Gately, his crimes, recovery & commitments
Pre-Dawn 1 May YDAU - Outcropping NW of Tucson, AZ
- Maranthe & Steeply talk about p-terminals
- Gately drives his boss's Adventura and drives by "Antitoi Entertainent".
- attack by AFRs on Antitoi Entertainent.
"O" Pre-Dawn 1 May - Tucson AZ - Still
- Maranthe & Steeply discuss The Entertainment (the Samizdat), how it may be filmed that made it fatal, trying to find ways of viewing it without a fatality occurring.
Winter BS 1963 Sepulveda, CA
- James and his dad; dust under the squeaky bed. (1963)
- Erdedy gives a hug to Roy Tony. (Remember him??) (Nov YDAU)
- Maranthe & Steeply continue their discussions. (May YDAU)
Okay....this probably should have occurred to me before: the time periods in the chapters change! I guess I haven't been paying that close of attention but it suddenly dawned on me that the chapter heading (date) only refers to the first segment in the chapter. The rest of the segments are elsewhere in time. It became very obvious in the final chapter this week: 3 segments; only one that could possibly have happened in 1963. DFW is messing with my sense of time.
Whats interesting to me is how the writing can be crazy and funny then really depressing. The chapter on Joelle left me anguished. I am interested in knowing what others thought about the Orrin Hal conversation about James death and who saw it and the grief commentary was a section I enjoyed. For me it finally showed some depth and emotion to the characters. I am doing my best to catch up.
Rebecca, those sections resonated with me, too, as well as Kate Gompert's depression in the Psych Ward. DFW had some deep feelings. I'm quite interested in Gately, too. His character is slowly coming out as a softie.
This is from page 510-511, just outside of this week's reading schedule, but I'll forget it if I don't mention it now (and it's not plot related):
Dr. Delores Rusk is in charge of "diddle-checks", which started after coach Bill "Touchy" Phiely (touchy-feely) disappeared into Humboldt County with a 13-year-old girl.
......Lolita references. LOL!
Orin is watching a film clip of himself playing football. The clip was filmed by Joelle, who's taken to filming Orin's football games. So, Orin is watching himself and the eyes are his. What is it that Orin saw while playing that is reflected in his eyes? Is it something that brought about his separation from Joelle? Or something that brought about his separation from the Moms? Or something completely different?
Good question Petra. I wonder too.
Tony seizure on page 306 at the end weirdness.
I am getting closer I think the kindle reading is better for me.
Orrin and Pgoat section is good too.
I find annoying how often he seems never to get to the point, as when Hal was outside the headmaster office with his mother tslking to the kids: on and on remembering similar situations but never actually entering the office!
Petra I feel the same about Gately. I did skim over Maranthe and steeply and really fast forward on the Eschaton section.
Laura, that's where I am, too. Hal & others are outside the office....waiting for CT to call them in. There's a lot of mention of everything 'blue', just like in the 1963 segment we just read. Wonder if the colour blue is significant or a red herring?
Rebecca, try to watch the Escaton game YouTube video. It's entertaining.
Things that are going through my head about this week's segments (up to page 508):- I felt so badly for Mario in the Eric Clipperton story. The poor little 8-year-old! That's a lot for a little kid to handle. That scene of him cleaning the room was heartbreaking.
- that said, Mario seems to know a lot more than he's given credit for or that anyone even suspects he knows. There's a number of statements in the lines of "X person & Y person and maybe even Mario know about This-Tiny-Detail". Makes me wonder if Mario will be the super-hero in this book because of all the things he seems to be in on.
- it was heartbreaking also to see how much Mario misses Madame Psychosis' radio show and totally appalling that CT thinks of Mario as "it".
- I loved James' film, The Joke. What a joke!
- ROY TONY!!! He's back.......wonder if he's changed any now that he's in rehab or if he's still such a rotten guy.
Rebecca, I also loved the grief therapy section. Great satire of therapy.I could do with a few fewer gross descriptions, written in a way that makes you laugh as you are gagging: Jame's microwaved head, the impailing by the wheelchair gang, Dad passed out in his barf at the bed frame. Mario's birth, etc.
You've got to give a hand to DFW, though, for making us laugh at James' microwaved head. Not many authors could do that.Dad passed out in his barf and breaking the bed frame made me laugh, too.
I got the impression himselfs suicide was a result of many things coming up for him but not sure if it was social or financial pressures that got to him.
Petra wrote: "Laura, that's where I am, too. Hal & others are outside the office....waiting for CT to call them in. There's a lot of mention of everything 'blue', just like in the 1963 segment we just read. Won..."
I was wondering what all this blue was about Petra ...
Rebecca wrote: "I got the impression himselfs suicide was a result of many things coming up for him but not sure if it was social or financial pressures that got to him."We don't know much about James, do we?
- He was an alcoholic but hadn't had a drink in months before his suicide (but an empty/almost empty bottle of whiskey was found with his body),
- CT was moving into HmH (into the bedroom next to Avril's) in a couple of days,
- movie critics didn't seem to like his movies (but then he was fairly passive/aggressive with them, too)
There must have been some deep & troubling family issues that we don't know about (yet) because he killed himself in a way that the family could never forget.
Because of the Professional Conversationalist segment, I wonder whether he had trouble communicating with Hal in particular. It seemed, in that segment, that Hal somehow ignored/disregarded Himself (himself thought Hal might be a mute)? Himself's suicide could have been timed to ensure that Hal found him, making the suicide a way to force Hal to notice his father.
The 1st Randy Lenz segment in this week's reading is gruesome. Just a warning. It's very hard to read.
I just read the Randy Lenz segment - I agree that it was difficult to stomach. By far, it was the most disturbing section of the book.Related to this, I noticed that the theme of "waste" is peppered throughout the book (scenes taking place in restrooms, use of trash bags, wasted lives, getting "wasted" on drugs, etc.).
Don't know if I'm correct on this or if it was mentioned earlier in the book and I just missed it, but I'm beginning to think the Sameizdat is the last version of Infinite Jest that James recorded (there was a footnote early on that listed his filmography and there were multiple versions of the film).
Amy, I think so, too. The samizdat is, I think, Infinite Jest V.Also, in regards to viewing the cassette and its effects: (can be read by page 508)
(view spoiler)
Petra - your "spoiler" comment fits in with the Hamlet reference where Hamlet is holding Yorrick's skull and call him "a fellow of infinite jest."Not sure how to hide spoilers so I won't comment on this further right now.
Amy, it's < spoiler > whatever you want to say < /spoiler > (take out the spaces)...nice one! I hadn't thought about Hamlet and it's references. I think that answers my question.....
Thanks so much, Petra! I've been meaning to look this up but haven't had time -- I'm too busy reading :)
The summary may be a day or two late this week. We've got unexpected (but enjoyable) company this weekend so my reading time is a bit shortened. How's everyone doing with this book? What are your general thoughts about the book, it's style and/or DFW?
Who's your favorite character? Least favorite?
Have you read any other works by DFW? How does IJ compare?
How do I feel about the book and its style so far...?I fear that my brain may start to convulse soon. I may volunteer for the viewing of that film in a little bit. LOL
I've already ordered several more books bu DFW and will be adding those to my TBR stacks :)
Amy wrote: "I've already ordered several more books bu DFW and will be adding those to my TBR stacks :)"(view spoiler)
LOL, Irene! I can completely understand that feeling. I'm loving this book but when I tried reading it last year, I just slipped away from it.
I remember a conversation with another IJ reader who had also stopped reading it the first time around. We came to the conclusion that DFW was a genious and therefore must have added a subliminal message into IJ that says "stop here. try again another time". It would be so like him. LOL!
I love his writing style. It does, though, take some awful concentration at parts. He puts in these mind-boggling, detailed (and sometimes a bit boring) sections that meaner on and on and on. BUT, tucked into these details-that-mean-nothing-to-the-story, are tiny, insignificant mentions of big-to-the-story details and these details can be easily missed because our minds are just scanning the words at this point. He's testing the reader, it seems.
That said, it's wonderful writing and I'm looking forward to reading other books by him. I've had Broomstick In The Closet (??? can't link right now and may have the wrong title...but it's something like that) on my ereader for years now and have never gotten to it. I'm a lot more interested in it now.
O, and then there are the down right histerical sections that seem to belong on some experimental commedy sketch such as Avril and Wayne playng cheerleader and football player.
I hooted at that scene (and wonder what it is that Pemulis went there to say to Avril.....or, if he know about Avril & John Wayne, what he went there to say to the both of them).That scene was truly hysterical.
Petra wrote: "He puts in these mind-boggling, detailed (and sometimes a bit boring) sections that meaner on and on and on. BUT, tucked into these details-that-mean-nothing-to-the-story, are tiny, insignificant mentions of big-to-the-story details ..."Petra, I find that mind-boggling as well. I'm constantly stunned at how someone created something so unique. I enjoy the writing style where each sentence packs so much of a punch and makes your head spin a little bit (especially when they run on), I find myself alternately laughing out loud and grimacing at what I'm reading, and I love all the disparate pieces that are coming together. I feel like my brain is getting a workout every time I read a section, and keep having to refer to external resources, but I'm enjoying IJ so much.
To answer your questions, Don G. has definitely become my favourite character. He certainly has redeemed himself from the earlier in the book! I found his reflections on life and on AA pretty profound.
On the other hand are Maranthe and Steeply - not that I don't like the characters, but their dialogue and roles have been the hardest to wrap my head around. Is the ongoing scene on the outskirts of Tucson ever going to end? On the bright side, in the past couple of weeks' readings their conversation seems to have been more revealing, so I feel like I have a little bit of a better grasp on them now.
I agree, I am havin the most difficult time with Maranthe and Steeply. I am starting to dread their sections.
Re: Maranthe & Steeply:I felt that way, too, at first and they still aren't my favorite segments but there's a lot of info in the segments....maybe.
(view spoiler)
I got to such a good segment this morning (both funny and informational)....makes me want to kick my company out and just read. Guess that wouldn't be very hospitable, would it? :D
Sorry for the delay in getting the summary up. It'll happen soon, I promise. Seems like many of us are a bit behind so a few days of delay may not be a bad thing.
I am excited to be more caught up then I was. YAhooo. I had to grow to appreciate DF style. I am hooked and appreciate and love it although for me I think it took about 150 pages into it. My favorite character is Don G. He seems to be the most open and honest and that said I think we get to know him better than others. I loved the AA SECTIONS.
I do enjoy Hals commentary the most.
I would also say Maranthe and Steeply least favorite although it has changed and is getting better farther into the book. I think there conversations are highly political and I don't really get into that much.
I was thinking a lot about the mothers in this book. There doesn't seem to be much of any in the book. I wonder what Foster's relationship was like with his own?
Mod
Rebecca,I also noticed the lack of mother figures. The only other example of a mother I can think of is Charlotte (the prostitute who had the stillborn baby). She was getting high while she was pregnant.
It makes me want to check out DFW's biography. As if don't have enough books on my TBR list ... :)
I would love to know how DFW wrote this book. I have this image of the story being written in straight foward fashion, then cut into little pieces and put together in a different configuration. At times, I feel as if this book is a jigsaw puzzle requiring attention to details to fit the right pieces together in order to figure out what the picture is. I was never good at jigsaw puzzles.
Irene wrote: "I would love to know how DFW wrote this book. I have this image of the story being written in straight foward fashion, then cut into little pieces and put together in a different configuration. A..."Interesting image Irene! Could be!!!
I like the image of IJ being a jigsaw puzzle. It fits. At the moment, I've got a few pieces but they don't fit together very well yet. I have a copy of DFW's biography and kind of want to dig into it now.
Summary (pages 508-601)10 Nov YDAU
- Hal, Pemulis, Ann Kettenplant and Axford are called to CT’s office re: Eschaton incident.
Pre-Dawn & Dawn 1 May YDAU Outcropping NW of Tucson AZ – Still
- Maranthe & Steeply
0450H, 11 Nov YDAU, Front Office, Ennet House, DARH Enfield MA
- Joelle & Gately chat
“O” – Randy Lenz walk home alone after NA Meetings
Early Nov YDAU
- US Office of Unspecified Services get involved in solving the mystery of the Samizdat
Late PM Monday 9 Nov YDAU
- Pemulis interrupts Avril & John Wayne in her office
Wed 11 Nov YDAU
- Lenz gets high at NA Meeting; walks home with Green & is very chatty
- (noon-ish) Hal lies on his bed & is visited by Troeltsch, Pemulis and John Wayne
- Back to Lenz & Green walking home
Selected Snippets……
- Joelle & Gately talk some more
- Orin, his Subjects and Love
- Idris Arslanian walks around blindfolded as an attempt to up his tennis rankings. James’ contribution to Waste Science. Bombarding poisons with yet more toxic poisons results in stable non-poisonous compounds (called High Waste Annulating Fusion…..and the reason for catapulting garbage into the Great Concavity). EWD catapults garbage to the east side of the Concavity in order to keep the uninhabitable parts away from Boston and the rest of western USA (but it keeps NNY pretty toxic). Pemulis and Idris discuss plans for his (Idris') urine.
- Orin notices that since Helen Steeply is away he’s again being followed by wheel-chaired people.
- Life stories of Randy Lenz and Bruce Green. Bruce witnesses Lenz killing a dog. Two men in wheelchairs witness Lenz killing the dog and Bruce hiding/witnessing.
- Mario misses Madame Psychosis’ radio show, takes a night walk by Ennis House, hears someone playing a taping of an early episode of “Sixty Minutes +/-..”, stops and listens.
- A description of Gately’s evening/night duties at Ennet House.
Petra wrote: "I like the image of IJ being a jigsaw puzzle. It fits. At the moment, I've got a few pieces but they don't fit together very well yet. I have a copy of DFW's biography and kind of want to dig int..."
I cant seem to see it Petra. I wonder if it is also part of solving the puzzle?
I was also disturbed by the Randy Lenz section I just read it WOW. Just a thought on Hal earlier mentioning he hates clouds and sky and the I thought about blue and looked at the book cover.
I'm interested in this sequence:Unknown Date (did I miss the date being mentioned? I'm guessing it's before they get called into CT's office.)
Idris Arslanian walks around blindfolded as an attempt to up his tennis rankings. Pemulis and Idris discuss plans for his (Idris') urine.
Late PM Monday 9 Nov YDAU
- Pemulis interrupts Avril & John Wayne in her office
10 Nov YDAU
- Hal, Pemulis, Ann Kettenplant and Axford are called to CT’s office re: Eschaton incident.
Wed 11 Nov YDAU
- (noon-ish) Hal lies on his bed & is visited by Troeltsch, Pemulis and John Wayne
- Pemulis collects urine from Idris.
- later that night, he interupts Avril & John Wayne and wants to discuss something with her (or them?).
- the next morning they are called into CT's office for a "surprise" urine test. (is it truly a surprise? Not likely if the urine Pemulis collected from Idris is for this purpose.)
- the next day Hal's friends keep popping into his room to check on him. What happened to Hal in CT's office that did not happen to the others? Hal was, for the most part, uninvolved since none of his official little buddies were hurt. Why would he be the only one to pay some sort of consequences?
I really liked the High Waste Annulating Fusion segment. That's brilliant, really: keeping chaos at bay by catapulting unwanted material into the midst of chaos.
Orin's ideas of love are so, so sad. It's really heart-breaking that he's still so much in love with Joelle that he can't find happiness with others or respect others. There's so many unresolved issues in that boy.
There is so much illogical logic in this book... things that the rational mind knows is nonsense, but which almost makes sense in the distorted presentation it is given. That section on the unwanted waste material is a perfect example. The blind tennis player is another. Theconversations between Steeply and Marathe strike me that way. I constantly feel as if I am being led down some rabbit hole.
I'm glad you mentioned that, Stacey. The telephone conversations between Hal and Orin are amazingly done. They are, as you say, touching. The one about James' death was heartbreaking.Catch up as you can. We'll be here whenever you comment. I had company last week & over the weekend, too. With this book, it's easy to get behind. It requires a lot of attention; you can't just skim it. DFW hides details everywhere.
I'm going to read it to the end! I can't stand any longer to stop feel I forget lots of things!!!THe phone call between Orin and Hal was great for me too! I still don't know what came out from they summons at CT office after that disastrous game ... I have to discover it!!!!!!
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I was going to ask this, too. Where is everyone in the book? Are we still struggling?
I'm on page 491 and will finish this week's section today and post a summary (of sorts....it's getting very confusing to summarize without giving spoilers...or, at least, major spoilers)