Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Divine Comedy, Dante
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Inferno 7: Hoarding and spending/wrath and sullenness
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"Papè Satan, papè Satan Aleppo,"Pluto 'gan gabble with his clucking tongue
--Sayers, 7.1-2
What under the world is Pluto babbling about?
Canto 7 confronts us with the opposing sins of avarice and prodigality, united in an infernal dance. The ethical thing here is the Golden Mean. But was wise moderation not relevant in the previous cantos? Not really, in the Christian view self-denial seems the recommendable attitude; the Golden Mean is a more Aristotelian concept.Though when it comes to love I struggle, like Dante. I have my problems with the limits of excessive love, while he seems to have difficulties with the Christian tendency to reduce love (under cast) to carnality. Love is a complicated thing, no surprise therefore that our ethics towards lust and love have changed so much more since Dante than our feelings towards gluttony or avarice.
Back to the present canto. Dante chastises the Church, dedicated as it is to the twin sins. A recurring theme throughout the Middle Ages, almost a commonplace. When the Reformation finally came no-one could say the Church wasn’t amply warned. But now we quickly move on to the Styx. Here in the vast swamps encircling the city of Dis we meet those guilty of wrath playing a rough and eternal game of water polo, while the sullen are kept occupied with scuba. Dante has little time for them, his eyes are already fixed on the walls of Dis.
Laurele wrote: "It is interesting to me that Dante, two centuries before Luther, is vehemently criticizing the misuse of wealth by the clergy and sending even popes to Hell. "This also caught my attention!
Wendelman wrote: "Canto 7 confronts us with the opposing sins of avarice and prodigality, united in an infernal dance. The ethical thing here is the Golden Mean. But was wise moderation not relevant in the previous ..."I'd like to think that Aristotle had an influence at encouraging others around him towards that end, even those who later became Christians, but I do believe it was a part of the belief system with out him, as there is evidence of it in the Hebrew scriptures long before him.
Proverbs 23:20-21 KJV
20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
another translation: ESV
Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.
Wendelman wrote: "Here in the vast swamps encircling the city of Dis we meet those guilty of wrath playing a rough and eternal game of water polo, while the sullen are kept occupied with scuba.."lol. You're not a fan of water sports, are you? :)
Schutt's lecture explains that being a spendthrift is treated more harshly than hoarding because it harmed one's family and heirs.
Dante and Virgil themselves, as pointed out above, seem to pass through this Circle fairly quickly. I'm rather inclined to do that myself. But no. I have a few desultory observations/ remarks.
Musa has that seventh terza as
"Ah, God's avenging justice! Who could heap up
suffering and pain as strange as I saw here?
How can we let our guilt bring us to this?"
And Mandelbaum
"Why do we let our guilt consume us so?"
Neither of those spoke to me.
I prefered the Zappulla translation:
"And why do our transgressions break us all?"
(1) I've always liked that word. Transgressions. It covers such a multitude of sins. Yet seems a technical, very-nearly-non-judgmental word to me. Sure, it does bring with it the admitance that some "wrong" was done...there was a transgression...but that SURELY it was just a little infringement... Certainly not requiring serious punishment.... Certainly not jail time.
I liked Zappulla's translation of that line because a lot sins/transgressions don't seem like particularly bad acts to the transgressor. How evil can it be to be very, very, very frugal? (Indeed, that person probably sees themselves as behaving properly. 'I am saving for the future.') How evil can it be to spend money? (Why, that person possibly thinks that 'Money was MADE to be spent. My spending brings joy to myself and others.')
And there's Dante:
"Why do our transgressions break us all?"
(2) And although posed as a question, it's a statement. So absolute.
Our sins--any sin--will break us.
No sin is excepted. No sinner is excepted.
Musa has that seventh terza as
"Ah, God's avenging justice! Who could heap up
suffering and pain as strange as I saw here?
How can we let our guilt bring us to this?"
And Mandelbaum
"Why do we let our guilt consume us so?"
Neither of those spoke to me.
I prefered the Zappulla translation:
"And why do our transgressions break us all?"
(1) I've always liked that word. Transgressions. It covers such a multitude of sins. Yet seems a technical, very-nearly-non-judgmental word to me. Sure, it does bring with it the admitance that some "wrong" was done...there was a transgression...but that SURELY it was just a little infringement... Certainly not requiring serious punishment.... Certainly not jail time.
I liked Zappulla's translation of that line because a lot sins/transgressions don't seem like particularly bad acts to the transgressor. How evil can it be to be very, very, very frugal? (Indeed, that person probably sees themselves as behaving properly. 'I am saving for the future.') How evil can it be to spend money? (Why, that person possibly thinks that 'Money was MADE to be spent. My spending brings joy to myself and others.')
And there's Dante:
"Why do our transgressions break us all?"
(2) And although posed as a question, it's a statement. So absolute.
Our sins--any sin--will break us.
No sin is excepted. No sinner is excepted.
And there's an allusion to that mythic landmark. Charybdis.
It brings back memories of Homer. Odysseus. Virgil's Aeneid. Knowing what a monster whirlpool that was, I loved the image of the two groups surging back and forth, forth and back, "to clash and turn and roll": "Why hoard?" "Why waste?"
LOL. And look! Neither side is advocating the wisdom of their own ways. They're not shouting "Save." or "Stimulate the economy." It's all about what's wrong with the OTHER guy.
It's, like, negative advertising in Hell, man.
It brings back memories of Homer. Odysseus. Virgil's Aeneid. Knowing what a monster whirlpool that was, I loved the image of the two groups surging back and forth, forth and back, "to clash and turn and roll": "Why hoard?" "Why waste?"
LOL. And look! Neither side is advocating the wisdom of their own ways. They're not shouting "Save." or "Stimulate the economy." It's all about what's wrong with the OTHER guy.
It's, like, negative advertising in Hell, man.
I like Mandelbaum's literal translation better (colpa rendered as "guilt")"Why do we let our guilt consume us so?"
Dante seems to be in a reflective mood here. So the focus is on the psychological aspect of guilt and the self-destructive nature of sin. We are aware of our sin, because of our guilt, and yet we continue in sin and let guilt consume us. Why do we torture ourselves so?
P.S. I wonder which circle of Hell Sisyphus ended up in. He seems to belong here, laboring in vain back and forth, endlessly.
At 9 Patrice wrote: "If we're going to stand up for truth, we'll never have a chance to sit down!
LOL.
But really, when I commit a small transgression, it really isn't so bad. ;)
I shall avoid admitting to any actual sins. I shall admit instead to committing social faux pas. Guilty. On occasion I have been rude. Yes. It's true. Very, very true. (Fortunately, there is no Circle for rude people. I checked.) And although, yes, I feel badly about it and soon regret my recent rudeness, I can almost always explain it. My own rudeness ... there's a reason. But those OTHER people. Mein Gott! They are just inexcusably rude!
Sigh. That's how it is.
LOL.
But really, when I commit a small transgression, it really isn't so bad. ;)
I shall avoid admitting to any actual sins. I shall admit instead to committing social faux pas. Guilty. On occasion I have been rude. Yes. It's true. Very, very true. (Fortunately, there is no Circle for rude people. I checked.) And although, yes, I feel badly about it and soon regret my recent rudeness, I can almost always explain it. My own rudeness ... there's a reason. But those OTHER people. Mein Gott! They are just inexcusably rude!
Sigh. That's how it is.
Dante and Virgil descend deeper.
"That stream...
When it has reached the foot of those malign
gray slopes, that melancholy stream descends,
forming a swamp that bears the name of Styx" (Mandelbaum VII.103/106-109).
Mandelbaum's notes point out that "the Styx is one of the rivers surrounding Hades." Nice. I really appreciate the points where the Inferno parallels The Aeneid.
And I remember looking that up name up when we read The Aeneid. Styx means "hateful." Is that not perfect?
Musa describes the muddy people there, "with their faces scarred by rage."
Zappulla has them "Naked,
Their faces bestialized by twists of rage,
They beat like brutes at one another's forms,
Not only with their hands, but with their heads
And feet and chests, and furiously ripped
At one another with their feral teeth" (VII.107).
About the second or third read through this canto, I started to appreciate the description of this place as a swamp, a marsh.
Because that's how wrathful hate is. It's generally not well directed. It doesn't flow through reasonable channels towards a pre-fixed end point. Instead, wrath, hate, even intense anger, simply flood the body. The emotions overflow the prescribed courses mapped out for civilized behavior. A marsh or swamp of hate.
And of course the people there are "muddy," "slimed with mud." It's unavoidable.
I rather like that they're naked, too.
Stripped of any civilizing behavior.
Love those "feral teeth."
(Feral: "A feral organism is one that has changed from being domesticated to being wild or untamed.")
"That stream...
When it has reached the foot of those malign
gray slopes, that melancholy stream descends,
forming a swamp that bears the name of Styx" (Mandelbaum VII.103/106-109).
Mandelbaum's notes point out that "the Styx is one of the rivers surrounding Hades." Nice. I really appreciate the points where the Inferno parallels The Aeneid.
And I remember looking that up name up when we read The Aeneid. Styx means "hateful." Is that not perfect?
Musa describes the muddy people there, "with their faces scarred by rage."
Zappulla has them "Naked,
Their faces bestialized by twists of rage,
They beat like brutes at one another's forms,
Not only with their hands, but with their heads
And feet and chests, and furiously ripped
At one another with their feral teeth" (VII.107).
About the second or third read through this canto, I started to appreciate the description of this place as a swamp, a marsh.
Because that's how wrathful hate is. It's generally not well directed. It doesn't flow through reasonable channels towards a pre-fixed end point. Instead, wrath, hate, even intense anger, simply flood the body. The emotions overflow the prescribed courses mapped out for civilized behavior. A marsh or swamp of hate.
And of course the people there are "muddy," "slimed with mud." It's unavoidable.
I rather like that they're naked, too.
Stripped of any civilizing behavior.
Love those "feral teeth."
(Feral: "A feral organism is one that has changed from being domesticated to being wild or untamed.")
Nemo wrote: "
Dante seems to be in a reflective mood here. So the focus is on the psychological aspect of guilt and the self-destructive nature of sin. We are aware of our sin, because of our guilt, and yet we continue in sin and let guilt consume us. Why do we torture ourselves so?"
I like that. Yes, reflective. And he seems in that terza, don't you think, to be talking about more than just the hoarders and the spendthrifts?
So the focus is on the psychological aspect of guilt and the self-destructive nature of sin.
Well put.
Dante seems to be in a reflective mood here. So the focus is on the psychological aspect of guilt and the self-destructive nature of sin. We are aware of our sin, because of our guilt, and yet we continue in sin and let guilt consume us. Why do we torture ourselves so?"
I like that. Yes, reflective. And he seems in that terza, don't you think, to be talking about more than just the hoarders and the spendthrifts?
So the focus is on the psychological aspect of guilt and the self-destructive nature of sin.
Well put.
Adelle wrote: "And there's an allusion to that mythic landmark. Charybdis. It brings back memories of Homer. Odysseus. Virgil's Aeneid. Knowing what a monster whirlpool that was, I loved the image of the ..."
Aren't you glad we read Homer and Virgil first?
At 15 Laurele wrote: "
Aren't you glad we read Homer and Virgil first? "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YstlG...
Aren't you glad we read Homer and Virgil first? "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YstlG...
Adelle and Nemo, I love your questions and explanations. Keep it up!
From the Notes on Canto Seven. (Esolen).
I put these out here because a number of us read Boethius.
"For all the gold that lies beneath the moon
and all that has, could never give a moment
of rest to one of these exhausted souls."
L.64. For all the gold: "It was a commonplace in classical literature that our wants, not our needs, can grow insatiable. Dante's phrasing derives from Boethius: "If free-handed Plenty should dispense riches from her cornucopia as plentiful as the sands cast up the storm-tossed sea, or as the stars that shine in heaven on clear nights, men still would not stop crying their miserable complaints" (Cons. 2.m.2).
L.78: Fortune/guide
"Fortune, conceived not as the capricious, even malevolent pagen goddess spinning her wheel (for that famous image, see Boethius) but as an agent of divine providence. Much as been said about the radical change Dante has made in the iconography of Fortune.
It should be understood, however, that for Boethius, to mistake an earthly and partial good for one's ultimate and complete good, which can be found only in God and which indeed is God, is to experience as blind Fortune what the virtuous experience as the working out of divine providence. Fundamentally, then, Boethius and Dante agree."
(I had to read that more than once.)
I put these out here because a number of us read Boethius.
"For all the gold that lies beneath the moon
and all that has, could never give a moment
of rest to one of these exhausted souls."
L.64. For all the gold: "It was a commonplace in classical literature that our wants, not our needs, can grow insatiable. Dante's phrasing derives from Boethius: "If free-handed Plenty should dispense riches from her cornucopia as plentiful as the sands cast up the storm-tossed sea, or as the stars that shine in heaven on clear nights, men still would not stop crying their miserable complaints" (Cons. 2.m.2).
L.78: Fortune/guide
"Fortune, conceived not as the capricious, even malevolent pagen goddess spinning her wheel (for that famous image, see Boethius) but as an agent of divine providence. Much as been said about the radical change Dante has made in the iconography of Fortune.
It should be understood, however, that for Boethius, to mistake an earthly and partial good for one's ultimate and complete good, which can be found only in God and which indeed is God, is to experience as blind Fortune what the virtuous experience as the working out of divine providence. Fundamentally, then, Boethius and Dante agree."
(I had to read that more than once.)
OK. Last bit. "Sullen." What's with "sullen"?
For me, I wanted to be able to say "sullen" is to "wrathful" as "spendthrift" is to "hoarder."
I wanted opposing sins. I just couldn't see how "sullen" was the opposite of "wrathful."
"Stuck in the mire they say: 'Sullen we were
up in the sweet air gladdened by the sun,
bearing a sluggish smoke within our hearts.
Now we are sullen in this black bog here'
Such is the hynm they gargle in the throat." (Esolen VII.121).
For me, The notes helped the "sullen" to resonate better as an opposite of "wrathful."
L. 121. sullen: "These souls gave their hearts not to explosions of anger but to acedia, one of the seven deadly sins and somewhat misleadingly translated as 'sloth." The sin is not physical but spiritual torpor, a willful inability to take delight in what is meant for our pleasure or--intriguingly--an inability to grow angry at what should legitimately arouse anger.
Thomas Aquinas aptly calls acedia the sin against the Sabbath--the sin against festivity itself. That notion may have motivated Dante's choice of words here: the sullen gargle a hymn of futility" (Esolen).
For me, I wanted to be able to say "sullen" is to "wrathful" as "spendthrift" is to "hoarder."
I wanted opposing sins. I just couldn't see how "sullen" was the opposite of "wrathful."
"Stuck in the mire they say: 'Sullen we were
up in the sweet air gladdened by the sun,
bearing a sluggish smoke within our hearts.
Now we are sullen in this black bog here'
Such is the hynm they gargle in the throat." (Esolen VII.121).
For me, The notes helped the "sullen" to resonate better as an opposite of "wrathful."
L. 121. sullen: "These souls gave their hearts not to explosions of anger but to acedia, one of the seven deadly sins and somewhat misleadingly translated as 'sloth." The sin is not physical but spiritual torpor, a willful inability to take delight in what is meant for our pleasure or--intriguingly--an inability to grow angry at what should legitimately arouse anger.
Thomas Aquinas aptly calls acedia the sin against the Sabbath--the sin against festivity itself. That notion may have motivated Dante's choice of words here: the sullen gargle a hymn of futility" (Esolen).
Adelle wrote: "From the Notes on Canto Seven. (Esolen).I put these out here because a number of us read Boethius.
"For all the gold that lies beneath the moon
and all that has, could never give a moment
of re..."
Oh dear! Now you've made me add another book to my pile. This must be my circle.
Esolen via Adelle:"It should be understood, however, that for Boethius, to mistake an earthly and partial good for one's ultimate and complete good, which can be found only in God and which indeed is God, is to experience as blind Fortune what the virtuous experience as the working out of divine providence. Fundamentally, then, Boethius and Dante agree."
Wow! This man is good.
Adelle wrote: "OK. Last bit. "Sullen." What's with "sullen"?For me, I wanted to be able to say "sullen" is to "wrathful" as "spendthrift" is to "hoarder."
I wanted opposing sins. I just couldn't see how "su..."
I think sullenness could be an inner burning, an inner anger. It doesn't burst out in imprecations of wrath; it just sits around with a bored look on its face and does nothing. It is a quiet anger that destroys its bearer from the inside out. It likely is on drugs.
At 21, At 22 Laurele wrote: "Esolen via Adelle:
"It should be understood, however, that for Boethius, to mistake an earthly and partial good for one's ultimate and complete good, which can be found only in God and which indee..."
I have found some of his notes helpful. But truly, I had to re-read that sentence. I read and then I was all "Wait. What?"
Your view of sullenness as "an inner anger...that destroys its bearer from the inside" is most helpful, too. That WOULD be a counter to wrathfulness.
Somehow I just hadn't thought of sullen as anger. But it IS.
Thanks, Laurele.
"It should be understood, however, that for Boethius, to mistake an earthly and partial good for one's ultimate and complete good, which can be found only in God and which indee..."
I have found some of his notes helpful. But truly, I had to re-read that sentence. I read and then I was all "Wait. What?"
Your view of sullenness as "an inner anger...that destroys its bearer from the inside" is most helpful, too. That WOULD be a counter to wrathfulness.
Somehow I just hadn't thought of sullen as anger. But it IS.
Thanks, Laurele.
Laurele wrote: "I think sullenness could be an inner burning, an inner anger...."Yes that does help!
Adelle wrote: "About the second or third read through this canto, I started to appreciate the description of this place as a swamp, a marsh.Because that's how wrathful hate is. It's generally not well directed. It doesn't flow through reasonable channels towards a pre-fixed end point. Instead, wrath, hate, even intense anger, simply flood the body. The emotions overflow the prescribed courses mapped out for civilized behavior. A marsh or swamp of hate.
And of course the people there are "muddy," "slimed with mud." It's unavoidable..."
Great post, Adelle, post #13. A vivid recreation of Dante's image, makes it work much better for me.
Michael wrote: "Adelle wrote: "About the second or third read through this canto, I started to appreciate the description of this place as a swamp, a marsh.
Because that's how wrathful hate is. It's generally not..."
My understanding is that these first circles represent sins of "incontinence." Sins which will proove to be less serious than sins of "choice."
For those of us who are baby boomers or older, the word can be misleading. (I associate it with Depends adult diapers.) In a way the disjunction is actually helpful. The sinners we are encountering here cannot control their impulses (gluttony, anger, lust).
It will be interesting to discover what Dante considers worse.
Because that's how wrathful hate is. It's generally not..."
My understanding is that these first circles represent sins of "incontinence." Sins which will proove to be less serious than sins of "choice."
For those of us who are baby boomers or older, the word can be misleading. (I associate it with Depends adult diapers.) In a way the disjunction is actually helpful. The sinners we are encountering here cannot control their impulses (gluttony, anger, lust).
It will be interesting to discover what Dante considers worse.
Patrice wrote: "Laurele wrote: ""Papè Satan, papè Satan Aleppo,"Pluto 'gan gabble with his clucking tongue
--Sayers, 7.1-2
What under the world is Pluto babbling about?"
Is he saying that the Pope is satan? He rules over the circle of wealth? "
Il Papa is Italian for the Pope. Unless Dante was perverting the name of the Pope intentionally, this doesn't seem quite right to me.
Patrice wrote: "I can't imagine that he could say the Pope was satan outright. Of course this is coming from Pluto's mouth.But what do you think he's implying with those utterances?"
Here's what Hollander says:
"Pape Satàn, Pape Satàn, aleppe. The third verse suggests that Virgil understands these words spoken by Plutus. If that is correct, he is perhaps the only one to have done so. Over the centuries a continuing debate addresses, rather confusedly, the precise nature of these five words: whether they are part of a recognizable language or not; whether they are totally meaningless or have some meaning; whether they are an invocation of the power of Satan against invading Dante or an oath giving expression to the monster’s surprise at the presence of a living soul in hell. For a review of the question see Hollander (Holl.1992.1), who sees this and Nimrod’s similarly nonsensical five words (Inf. XXXI.67) as parodic inversions of the five words of clear speech called for by St. Paul, concerned about the overreliance of the faithful on speaking in tongues (I Cor. 14:19). Plutus’s oath may be garbled speech, but it does contain “pseudo-words” that have meaning: Pape represents either a Latin interjection (papae) of admiration, as many ancient commentators think, or/and a debased form of the Italian and Latin for “pope” (papa—see v. 47: papi); Satàn would fairly clearly seem to be a form of the Italian “Satana” or of the Latin “Sathanas” and thus “Satan”; aleppe, as some of the first commentators noticed, is the Italian form of the Hebrew word for the first letter of the alphabet, “aleph,” as in the Latin expression “alpha ed omega” (the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, signifying “the beginning and the end”), as God defines Himself in the Bible (Rev. 1:8, repeated at 21:6 and 22:13). If one had to render these nonsense words in English one might say something like “O Pope Satan, my god.” Fortunately, one does not have to. For the connection of these words in mixed language to those in the first verses of the seventh canto of Paradiso (there, naturally, totally positive in tone and meaning)—the parallelism is certainly striking—see Sarolli (Saro.1971.1), pp. 289–90"
So I guess we don't need to feel bad if it puzzles us.
Dorothy Sayers cuts through it all with this note:"Various attempts have been made to interpret this cryptic remark, but none of them is very convincing. One may safely conjecture that it is meant as an invocation to the Devil, and it is well to leave it at that."
Do you wonder why I love that woman?
Laurele wrote: "Dorothy Sayers cuts through it all with this note:"Various attempts have been made to interpret this cryptic remark, but none of them is very convincing... One may safely conjecture that it is meant as an invocation to the Devil, and it is well to leave it at that."
Do you wonder why I love that woman? ..."
I do not wonder at all as she simplifies so many otherwise murky ideas.
I think, too, that it makes the best sense that Plutus is invoking "Father Satan, he who is first!" against the intruders.
While I believe that "aleppe" (from the Hebrew letter alef) refers to Satan's postion (to Plutus) as first or prime, one cannot help but think of this in contrast to Christ who is both the alpha AND omega, first and last.
Rhonda wrote: "While I believe that "aleppe" (from the Hebrew letter alef) refers to Satan's postion (to Plutus) as first or prime, one cannot help but think of this in contrast to Christ who is both the alpha AND omega, first and last. ..."Good point. "First and last" speaks to Christ's humility. Though He was first, yet He humbled Himself to be last. First that He may lead, last that no one may be left behind.
"I like to think that the sin of gluttony is more or less the same as consumerism. Giving in to that temporary sense of well-being (and therefore different from prodigality). So the punishment must be an eternal lack of well-being: cold rain and mud."
Sure enough, the circle of gluttony leads us directly down to the circle of spendthrifts and hoarders, presided over by the babbling cries of Pluto, the god of wealth. We learn about the nature of Fortune and then pass from the fourth circle to the fifth, home of the wrathful and the sullen.
It is interesting to me that Dante, two centuries before Luther, is vehemently criticizing the misuse of wealth by the clergy and sending even popes to Hell.