I only read the first few pages..

[Rochelle]

It sounds like you are asking people to sell you a book that you don't want to buy. If you don't want to read it, then don't. If you want to discuss you frustrations with the author's world building, read the book first. You'll have more foundation for your opinions.

[Rochelle]

Over time, I've found Butcher's choices are well thought out and largely consistent throughout the series.

[M.R.]

They're in first-person. This is the way Harry Dresden, a wizard, thinks. I've never met Butcher, but in general, fantasy writers seem to be personally more sceptical than pretty much anyone else.
Keep the unreliable narrator in mind when you come across science-bashing.

[[deleted user]]

I've read up to book six in the series. My husband is a Dresden/Codex Alera fan, so I know the general plot-line to both series. In Dresden-

1. The fantasy elements (i.e. vampires, wolves, fae) don't interact with the whole world much, so it's not so much as humans turning a blind eye as it's they don't have a lot of interaction with "magic". When humans do interact with magic, they deal with it, and there are a lot of human characters who interact with the magical world. However, a lot of humans who see it choose not to accept it, as it challenges a lot of their beliefs on reality/religion etc.

2. In the book, Dresden's ability to use magic doesn't interact with technology well. It's sort of like mixing two volatile chemicals together. Things go boom. Dresden would love nothing more than to sit back and watch some TV or take a hot shower, or even use a fridge, but he can't. It's not anti-science, it's got a decent explanation. It's not like Harry Potter where a grown up human being doesn't know how to use an electrical plug.

I'm seeing in your questions a lot of correlation between Dresden and issues I found with the Harry Potter series, and I can assure you, Butcher handles the world of existing magic and other beings a lot better than JK Rowling.

Hope that helped.

[M.R.]

That never really bothered me about Harry Potter until the series swerved abruptly out of whimsy and into the angst-ridden saving-of-the-world. It sort of made sense to me as an exaggerated version of people who drive automatics not being able to drive a manual - if you have something easier, why learn the hard way? Then it stopped being funny. 9_9

HP also has that element of technology and magic not mixing, though. Electronics brought onto Hogwarts grounds won't work, even if you know how to work them, which most of the wizards still don't. Apparently it just takes a lot more Potter magic than Dresden magic to foul up a laptop.

[[deleted user]]

M.R. wrote: "That never really bothered me about Harry Potter until the series swerved abruptly out of whimsy and into the angst-ridden saving-of-the-world. It sort of made sense to me as an exaggerated version..."

That's true, I mean, JK did have her reasons why people couldn't see magic, and there were the occasional foul-ups, but while JK sets a world absolutely separate from technology, Dresden is portrayed as having to get along in it, while also having volatile reactions happening all around him.

I'm actually an HP fan, but I have some big issues with the book and its author, a lot of which you just mentioned. :p

I should also mention that I did stop reading the Dresden series at book 6, it just wasn't my cup of tea, but I think Jim Butcher is a great guy and can only hope my series takes off the way his did. Just hope it won't take as long lol.

[Angie ~aka Reading Machine~]

I became a fan of the Dresden Files via the short lived tv series then I read the books. I love that Harry can't do the normal everyday stuff we use like microwave, tv, radio, and sometimes the telephone! He knows the world of magic doesn't get along with us poor humans. There is this quote I forget which book it's in but goes something like this: When it comes to the supernatural world people generally don't believe in magic. Especially if it happens right in front of them. Bless them they deny it as a hoax.

[M.R.]

She did have her reasons, and they were very well thought out; it's just a different context from the Dresden Files. DF is also much more adult, which would make the separate-world idea difficult to pull off, imo.
JK's problem was that, in letting her books "grow up" with the audience, she basically switched genres altogether. I was fortunate enough to be growing up with the books, but my little sister, a fast reader, was deeply disturbed by reading the last few books way too young.
I'm only on the second book of DF, but I understand it gets pretty intense later on, too.

You have a book coming out this month, don't you?

[Angie ~aka Reading Machine~]

Cold Days

[[deleted user]]

M.R. wrote: "She did have her reasons, and they were very well thought out; it's just a different context from the Dresden Files. DF is also much more adult, which would make the separate-world idea difficult t..."

Yeah I didn't read the books as I was growing up, I ended up reading them as an adult, and pretty much all at once, so it was a weird turn to take for me. I understand why, but I just took issue with a couple of things. Even so, I'll always be an HP fan.

And you are definitely right, Dresden and Potter are two VERY different worlds. Which is nice, actually :)

Though I'm not a huge fan, Dresden books get better with each book that goes, so you really always have something to look forward to. I'll probably pick up the series again at a later point and see if it piques my interest more.

And yeah I do have a book coming out, an Urban Fantasy type of book, and in writing it I've developed a pretty big respect for Urban Fantasy writers, because it's not easy to try and marry any type of fantasy into the modern age. But yeah the book date I'm shooting for is 12 December, but hoping I can get it out a little earlier :)

[M.R.]

Heh, I was one of the scary brand of Potterheads as a teenager. Midnight release parties and all that jazz. I'll always love the mythos, but I think if I ever reread the series, I'll stop off about Goblet of Fire.

I'll have to remember to pick up a copy of that. I've been on a tremendous urban fantasy kick recently. Reading material is always welcome. :)

[[deleted user]]

M.R. wrote: "Heh, I was one of the scary brand of Potterheads as a teenager. Midnight release parties and all that jazz. I'll always love the mythos, but I think if I ever reread the series, I'll stop off about..."

Oh believe me, I had my potter fanatical days. Fanfiction, Livejournal, all the fun stuff. I went to one midnight release, which was the last book, which had come out after I'd discovered the series (blame Alan Rickman as Snape, honestly lol). It'll always hold a special place in my heart. But you a right, Goblet of Fire is really the best place to start :D

I'll keep you in mind when I get ready to launch the book. I'll have it available for free a couple times during the launch, which I always encourage people to take advantage of. It deals with a lot of mythos in Theology, Gnostic gospels and Greek mythos, not traditional wizards and stuff... so bear that in mind. But it's been fun to write.

I'm looking forward to see what you think of the rest of the Dresden series, actually, so let me know as you progress, what you think!

[Stephanie]

There is a "factual" basis for the whole not being able to handle technology thing. People who claim to have powers often tell stories where they short out watches and other electronic devices on a regular basis.

The human and magical world interacting is handled just like every other paranormal/urban fantasy book out there Chicago is a city of millions of people, and most people don't look twice at the people surrounding them in a club or even at work. That's why most paranormal writers base things in cities, the whole you don't know what your neighbor is into thing.

There are a few clued in humans, but they are usually victims of circumstance of have interacted with the stuff so much they have to believe. The police know that there are victims of supernaturals and they also know that the higher-ups and the general public don't believe, and will think them crazy if they start saying words like vampire, werewolf, demon in their report. So they cover it up.

And yes Harry is a hardened skeptical character, he's also a smart ass, and has a white knight complex. He has reason for being all of these things. His back story is tough, and his life gets harder as the books go on, but he's worth the read.

[Alice]

Thyran wrote: "1. I only read the first few pages, but is this one of those books where there's vampires, werewolves, trolls and wizards in the whole world, but the human population has no idea of it?

2. The he..."

The genre of Jim Butchers The Dresden Files is Urban Fantasy . Being an UF fan I have read many books I just can't get into, but not because I can't put logic aside & enjoy it for what it is..FANTASY. Happy reading Thyran!

[G.G.]

Thyran wrote: "1. I only read the first few pages, but is this one of those books where there's vampires, werewolves, trolls and wizards in the whole world, but the human population has no idea of it?

2. The he..."

It just seem it is not your kind of bood, so don't buy it. Don't read it, but you will miss on some of the best stuff for people who love that genre.
Oh and some humans do... The police has a section for them. They just don't want to acknowledge them.

[G.G.]

so what do you make of those alien encounters in movies and books where all the electronic stuff ( cars, radio etc) shut down? There are a lot of authors who do not understand science there also... Just a thought... Read a book for what it is FICTION.. if you do not want fiction, read something else...
as far as i know.. vampires, zombies, ghosts, trolls etc dont exist either :P

[G.G.]

I understand but what you are saying can be said for just about anything in fantasy/paranormal or whatever you want to call these... if you can explain to me how dead people can come out of their graves and eat flesh to survive go ahead :P ALl I am saying is unless you are reading non fiction they will all contains stuff that will disturb the minds of certain people. I can see where it can bug you as other stuff bugs me also, but the truth is, these books are quite intertaining... so I am willing to shut my eyes on stuff, now if the book would be also boring than that would be another story of course...

[G.G.]

hehe well I also see your point except that when I read them it never crossed my mind... Of course back then I didnt pay attention much to anything but the stories... maybe if I would now I would think of what you said and see it...

[G.G.]

i rarely stop and think twice about possible or unpossible... as long as they are constant and do not change their storyline in the middle of the book... And I have seen some do that sadly... and THAT bugs the hell out of me :P but hey I may check that book.. :)

[Rochelle]

Actually, I think for a magician, Harry is pretty scientific in his approach to magic.

[Joel]

Thyran wrote: "2. The hero can't handle technology (anti-science). That's outside of calling science a religion. They introduce a "skeptic" in a fantasy world, where he's the idiot for being skeptical (anti-reason). Is this how the author is going to do this?"

Feel free to not read the books, but Butcher isn't anti-science. In Codex Alera (the author's other series) the main character is the only one without magic, but he uses clever tricks from science to kill his magic using enemies. In the author's spiderman novel he goes on about how conservation of momentum and leverage let spidy fight stronger opponents.

The hero not being able to handle Tech is a plot device. I once wrote a novel set in the near future where all the characters had cell phones (because they would) and whenever they ran into trouble they called each other, or the cops, or an ambulance (because they would).

I am an unpublished hack and it was horrible novel. The characters were always yacking away on their phones! Dresden's anti-tech field keeps this from happening in Butcher's books. Butcher is not an unpublished hack. Lot's of other authors do this: http://fragg.me/video/movies-no-signal

As to Carmichael and Dresden not getting along that to is a plot device. Dresden needs to be motivated by something, and in the early books he's motivated by earning enough money to pay his rent. Now if the cops believed he could do magic they'd hire him and he'd make good money. Heck, he could win James Randi's million bucks.

Dresden can't do this.
A) Magical creatures hide themselves because many of them are murderous and humans would kill them in self defense if they were in the open. If wizards were to threaten to blow their cover the wizards wouldn't last long.
B) Failing A some people are just irrationally skeptical.

Carmichael falls into the irrationally skeptical camp because he *can't* fall into the never saw magic camp. But, if he thinks Dresden is a fraud he's not going to like Dresden and if he doesn't like Dresden then Dresden isn't going to be Carmichael's number one fan.

Dresden, as you might have noticed, is the narrator. In book 4 Carmichael proves himself to be one of the good guys and Dresden acknowledges that maybe he wasn't fair.

In the later books Dresden is motivated by staying alive and he doesn't deal with any skeptics.

In short, magic isn't real but the books are set in our world, what's an author to do? That being said, don't read the books if they bug you. I hear Oprah thought The Kite Runner was great, maybe you should check that out. ;-)

[Bill]

Thyran wrote: "Unfortunately, the anti-science propaganda the writer seems to want to instill into the reader's mind was so obvious, I had found it an insult to one's intelligence."

Huh... must've missed that part, and I'm very good at catching stuff like that.

Then again... I sense some confirmation bias here, like you wanted to find anti-science references to justify skipping this book. If that's the case, why bother even picking it up?

[[deleted user]]

Actually, Harry references physics fairly often. He discusses formulas, methods, and processes for what he does. And, not to spoil anything, but a character with a medical background explains Harry's issues with tech in a scientific way later in the series. If anything, Harry laments the fact that he doesn't always interact well with technology. He describes all the different things technology can provide that is quite awesome for the general populace and he can't take advantage of. I do apologize if I've been too specific and spoiled anything for anyone!

[Bill]

Thyran wrote: "About you being good at picking stuff up:
1. He calls science a religion.
2. Hero can't handle technology.
3. They introduce a "skeptic" (the cop) in a fantasy world, where he's the idiot for being skeptical (anti-reason). "

I just finished reading this book several weeks ago, and he never once called science a "religion."

He can't handle technology because his magic interferes with it, not because he's anti-science.

Do you believe in magic? Does your non-belief make you an idiot?

Seriously... you saw a fantasy novel taking place in modern-day Chicago, looked for anti-science messages, and found them. If you were looking for pornographic messages in there, I'm sure you would have found them, too.

There's no anti-science message in The Dresden Files. Criticizing it on that basis is absolutely absurd.

[Bill]

Thyran wrote: This sentence makes no sense. This is enough and I'll just say that you can still enjoy it if you can ignore the anti-science stuff. I don't criticize the book, I question the writer. Like I said, I like the story, shame I can't look past it."

It makes perfect sense. You came in with a preconceived bias of the content of the story, went out of your way looking for things that confirmed that bias, and by God you found them.

Do you really think he meant that science was a "religion?" I don't, especially from how he treats it during the course of the book: as something that has kept people from seeing that magic is relevant (at least in the context of the story). Like religion alleged does, it blinds people to the truth (again, in the context of the story) that magic exists, and so do vampires, werewolves, and a host of other dangerous magical entities.

Besides: if you don't believe that scientists treat science as a religion, you just haven't been paying attention.

[Rochelle]

I've learned a lot about magical creatures from my years of reading urban fantasy. 1) trolls troll because it is their nature, and 2) if you feed the troll, it trolls more enthusiastically. I know that sometimes the impulse to feed them with either reason or vitriol is overwhelming, but it is never to late to stop.

[Jjab]

You do realize this is FICTION right. There is no agenda besides entertainment.

There are alot more fiction books out there that have obvious agendas than a made up one over science.

[Szymon]

Well I think that this topic proves that for some people science is a religion.

[[deleted user]]

Szymon wrote: "Well I think that this topic proves that for some people science is a religion."

Hole in one!

[Nancy]

Rochelle wrote: "I've learned a lot about magical creatures from my years of reading urban fantasy. 1) trolls troll because it is their nature, and 2) if you feed the troll, it trolls more enthusiastically. I kno..."

Okay, this made me laugh, because it's true (observational of course!) I'm a scientist and really didn't see the so called 'anti-science' propoganda in the book, but then again, I read 'urban fantasy' as the genre and realised it was going to have fantastical elements. If the troll was expecting some affirmation of what they think is appropriate in urban fantasy, perhaps they should stick to non-fiction

[Robert of Dale]

Yup, the title of the post says it all. Troll. "I read the entire book..." (and found these passages advocating an anti-science agenda) would be much more convincing as a serious criticism. The OP is definitely unwilling to consider dissenting views, so he's just here to pick a fight.

Trolls come to places where fans will see their words, and then spawn long "discussions" where "I think this.. and your opinion countering my thoughts is wrong. And yours too. No, you don't get it: I'm right!" is all you will get out of the OP.


I only read the first few pages... and thoroughly enjoyed them. I read the rest of the book, and then the next 11 books in the series, and am saving the most recent book for a rainy day.

Discuss.

[Szymon]

And that was page one. I've put forth a question here, but it was thoughtless. It's like telling a priest that there is no God. You'd be telling him he's wasted his whole life on a fairy-tale. I'm almost telling you that your favourite author has been deceiving you. And to throw salt into the wound, it's something that I picked up that you haven't. I understand now why you're upset, but it wasn't meant like that.
----------------------------------------------------
First - Dresden Files isn't a book that changed my life. As a Catholic I appreciate that there are good Catholic characters in Dresden Files, and that Church is one of the forces defensing humanity against supernatural predators. But obviously idea of Nevernever doesn't fit in any of religious systems of belief. Because you know - it is URBAN FANTASY. Which mean that you take beings from mythologies, legends, religious systems and urban myths and you place them in modern city, then put lone chandler-like detective or sexy witch policegirl to fight evil and protect innocent.

That also means that Urban Fantasy worlds are psychedelic mixes of our world with various non-existing beings or beings which existence is improvable.

Getting back to my original question of whether or not he is anti-science or anti-reason, it is a common affliction with creative people. Logic is cold, science is boring. Science takes away the wonder, so one becomes disgruntled (creative people tend to be very emotional beings). He's also into martial arts, which obviously hints towards eastern spirituality (Chi and chakra).
------------------------------------------------------
The point is problem of science is insignificant in Dresden Files novel. Quote from Storm Fronts say us that "science isn't remedy for all humanity problems". That great hopes wasn't fulfilled. That's true. Read futurologists from 60-ties, 70-ties, 80-ties. Expectations was way greater.

And still with science or without human beings are human beings which exactly is little more bloodthirsty chimpanzees ;)

“I don't care about whose DNA has recombined with whose. When everything goes to hell, the people who stand by you without flinching--they are your family.”
― Jim Butcher, Proven Guilty
----------------------------------------------------
eee... and that is one of those anti-science things? Dresden saying that family can be more than bloodlines? Are you Pavlov's dog or something? Seeing "DNA" in fantasy novel and came here to scream Dresden is anti-science?

He's very secretive about his beliefs and won't answer this type of question, it's been asked before. Here's a reply from Jim himself to someone asking about his religious/spiritual beliefs:
-------------------------------------------
If he is a liberal believing that faith is private thing of every man then his word are kinda obvious. I see many Word of Jims when he was stating that he won't answer personal questions. As wisely said Andrzej Sapkowski, polish fantasy writer (add atheist and Catholic enemy): "Only bad books are about their authors. Good books are about their characters".

“So. You get handed a holy sword by an archangel, told to go fight the forces of evil, and you somehow remain an atheist. Is that what you're saying?”
― Jim Butcher, Death Masks
-----------------------------------------------
And let's add - Sanya has a perfectly rational answer for Dresden doubts. I mean even if I have a vision of being who says he's called Archangel Michael and he gave me sword emitting energies that hurt various monsters - that doesn't mean that Christianity is true.

[Bill]

Oh, I get it... he doesn't give a shit if the book is anti-science, he just wants to troll religion!

From your last link:

...but to the speculation about my own personal spiritual life (which is no one's business but me and God's, unless I'm an atheist, in which case it's no one's business but my own's)...

It really is no one's business what his religious/spiritual beliefs are. He's a fiction writer (not even a top 20 seller, at that), not a politician or policy maker. He's allowed to have a private life that we, the readers, are not privy to.

Oh... and just to be very clear, religious != anti-scientific. As a computer science major in college, I run into many religious folk who are studying a broad range of sciences (chemistry, biology, physics), and each of them insists that their beliefs do not interfere with their studies or the theories they learn. As I heard one priest put it, "Science gives us the 'how.' Religion gives us the 'why.'"

Do us all a favor: creep back under your bridge, and take your crusade elsewhere. Your trolling is amateurish and pathetic, and far too obvious.

[Bill]

Oh, cute... he went back and edited more into his last post, so it looks like we didn't respond to his entire post. What a dick move.

[Bill]

Thyran wrote: "Another personal attack..."

Yep. Whatcha gonna do about it, take away my internetz?

We told you that you were wrong, you fabricated a bunch of bullshit to make yourself right... that spells "T-R-O-L-L," bub.

Oh... I read the before and after, and it was more than a couple of links. I'm not stupid, and I have a very good memory.

So... why not just fuck off on out of here before you hurt yourself any more.

[Mark]

Please, this discussion serves nobody in this thread. Either you like Jim Butchers creation for your own reasons or dislike his world and vision. As we enjoy it we do not lose out on his creations because we took time to read the books and see where Dresdens tale will take us.
I consider that a win, as I can accept that somebody considers it a miss. Each to is own.

And if somebody reads into a book what he doesn't like that is his/her perrogative.

For me the discussion of anti-science does not matter as I enjoy the adventures of Harry Dresden who has to rely on his own strengths and his friends instead of leading a life as 007. I do enjoy 007 as well but for different reasons. And I see no reason to spoil my enjoyment............

[Bill]

Mark wrote: "Please, this discussion serves nobody in this thread. Either you like Jim Butchers creation for your own reasons or dislike his world and vision. As we enjoy it we do not lose out on his creations ..."

Eh... Let him go. The more he trolls, the more I get to practice my counter-trolling (and make no mistake about it: I am totally trolling him back... he deserves it).

[Lumindanu]

I'm sorry I don't see and 'anti-science' bent to these books at all. And yes, I have a BS in engineering, so I am a science geek. This is a guy who doesn't use gadgets because his 'power' screws them up.... anyone ever experience random interference with their electronic devices... well, this is an plausible explanation...

Anyway... seems like those seeing 'anti-science' under every rock, are simply anti-imagination.

[P.B.]

Well, I declare! I spent most of my working life as an electronics tech, and I've read all the Dresden books and never ONCE did it occur to me that Harry (or Jim Butcher) is anti-science. Perhaps I'm just not as discerning as Thyran. I just read the books because I enjoyed them. Maybe this guy doesn't have the ability to suspend his disbelief and just enjoy a story? As for an anti-science agenda...sorry, didn't see that.

[Mark]

Thyran wrote: "1. I only read the first few pages, but is this one of those books where there's vampires, werewolves, trolls and wizards in the whole world, but the human population has no idea of it?

As you have not read a complete book your view cannot be taken into account as you simply have not have enough information.

2. The hero can't handle technology (anti-science). That's outside of calling science a religion. They introduce a "skeptic" in a fantasy world, where he's the idiot for being skeptical (anti-reason). Is this how the author is going to do this?

Had you finished the book you would have found that the hero's wizardy power do seem to conflict with modern appliences. He is more often than not annoyed by this as it complicates his life and investigations and the people around him who suffer no such problems. Unless he is around.

Overal one can state that your I have read a few pages and now am fully versed to have an opinion shows that you are sadly mistaken in your own appraisal.

[Szymon]

I already mentioned that this I now realise was a thoughtless action, it's like walking up to a priest and telling him God doesn't exist.
---------------------------------------------
Well, walking up to people and telling them that they wrong without any serious arguments generally cause such reaction. Anyway except deserved attacks you also get some real answers. Maybe you should read them and answer them.

[Bill]

Hang on... he may be on to something...

Butcher knows martial arts... he has researched paranormal and supernatural materials for a fantasy novel... he refuses to divulge private information about himself (his religious beliefs, boxers/briefs, his schlong size)...

Oh my God, HE'S A ZOROASTRIAN!!!

Thank you, Thyran! Without your tireless vigilance, he may have done something truly dreadful, and we would never have had any warning! May Ishtar's blessing be upon you, and may the Force be with you, kind sir!

Now quick... let's get the pitchforks and torches together, stomp out this heresy and burn the apostate before he calls down The Wrath Of Buddha on us all.

[Lumindanu]

If I could, in the friendliest manner imaginable, suggest to the fellow who felt the book was anti-science... set aside your assumption for just a little bit... the books are pure fun, mind candy at its finest... a little mystery, quirky characters, imaginative ...

If you don't like fantasy, you won't like them, but really, truly, these books are not about converting you to some alternate view of the world... they are pure entertainment!

[Gabriel]

Thyran wrote: "1. I only read the first few pages, but is this one of those books where there's vampires, werewolves, trolls and wizards in the whole world, but the human population has no idea of it?

2. The he..."

The reason Harry cannot use higher tech is because his magic causes problems with it. Computers fry etc...

[Howard]

Thyran wrote: "1. I only read the first few pages, but is this one of those books where there's vampires, werewolves, trolls and wizards in the whole world, but the human population has no idea of it?"

To some extent . . . there are vampires and werewolves and trolls. There are also fae and demons and ghouls and dragons and many other creatures and/or monsters.

Wizards exist in Dresden's world, as do sorcerers and witches and necromancers and many other flavors of magical practitioners, and most of those we see in the series are in fact humans.

There are humans in Dresden's world that know whats going on, but many many more that just rationalize away anything they happen to witness of a magical nature so that they can maintain their deeply seated beliefs, be those beliefs founded on Science or Christianity or Buddhism or Islam or aliens from outer space coming to take them to the promised land . . .

Dresden is, as he tells you himself in the first book, a private investigator that advertises in the Chicago Phone as a Wizard.

"2. The hero can't handle technology (anti-science). That's outside of calling science a religion. They introduce a "skeptic" in a fantasy world, where he's the idiot for being skeptical (anti-reason). Is this how the author is going to do this?"

Oh, Dresden would love to handle technology, but it is a particular problem that human practitioners have that technology just won't work for them the way it does for the non-magicaly talented humans. Or in fact as it works just fine for the fae, or vampires, or many other creatures or beings with magical talent. After having read all 14 books so far I can say that I see no anti-science attitude in the books. Far from it, the regular non-magic using humans, as well as the non-human magic using beings, have absolutely no problem using science and technology to help Dresden save the day, and in fact Dresden has, on several occasions, relied upon such assistance.

"I hope to get some answers, thanks. "

I hope this answers your questions?

[Heidi]

You know, I think Jim Butcher put it best with this "Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as Evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of alot more common. What we really need is a crusade against Stupid."Jim Butcher, Vignette