George R.R. Martin Discussion

[Arushi]

Its all about who you are born to. Ned would never have risen up in this worls like LF did. He'd always have been low.. had he not been a Stark.

That scene with Cersei was so stupid I had no words. But trust me, that was not the worst.

[Lannister]

I suppose in Ned's defence, I have to say that he didn't much involve himself in politics. He fought for Robert when he was much younger and proved himself to be a competent soldier, but then he went back to the North and settled down there. The people in Kings Landing want little to do with the North so Ned was pretty much left alone (he hadn't seen Robert for years, until he visited Winterfell.)

I get the impression that the people in the North respect Winterfell and they don't seem to play the games that go on in Kings Landing. They're more concerned with survival up there. So, I think Ned's political savvy was enough to keep on top of things up North, but he was completely out his depth in the South. And his single biggest mistake was to assume that the southerners would be honourable like the Northmen.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I have to agree with that, Lannister. Ned isn't a political sort because that's just not what the Starks have had to do. It's why he didn't even want to go to Kings Landing in the first place. Cat talked him into doing it.

[Maggie]

Sooo....
(view spoiler)[
R+L= J. Whatcha ladies think?
Also, anyone for the theory that Tyrion is a Targ?

(hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

Maggie, I consider that a fact, rather than a theory! :)

[Arushi]

Maggie wrote: "Sooo...
[Spoilers Removed]"

Help! (view spoiler)[ Who are R and L? I am thinking J is Jon. In that case, is R the Prince and L, Ned's sister?

If that is the case, then I am almost 100% sure of that. It explains quite a bit.

But I don't think Tyrion is a Targ. He's too much like his father, according to his aunt. Problem is/was father never saw that. (hide spoiler)]

Abt Ned - I kinda agree. In that sense, the North does not have time for politics. (view spoiler)[ Even later, they do not play the game, not even a quarter as viciously as the South, with Robb. (hide spoiler)] Plus they do have honor. I guess you need to have your word be given value if you are to survive the winter. After all, I assume they all may have to end up depending on one another to survive winter so backstabbing is kind of out of the question. No trust just might mean death by starvation.

[Lannister]

Arushi, (view spoiler)[Yup, it's Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon. It's probably the number one theory in the fandom. I believe it wholeheartedly, and sometimes have to remind myself that it hasn't actually been confirmed in the books yet!

I don't buy Tyrion as a Targ either. Or Jaime & Cersei as Targs. And I don't think Aegon (aka Young Griff) in Dance is a true Targ either. He's a plot hatched by Varys and Ilyrio whatshisface.

I want to know what Varys's true end game is. I ain't buying the 'peace for the realm' story.
(hide spoiler)]

[Zeenat]

I was thinking about this... And also, Ned wasn't really groomed for this life was he? It was supposed to be his brother who died and then it became Ned.

But I still think he could have been brighter. Maybe I'll find out more as I read on.

[Arushi]

@Zeenat - You do find out more. And Ned was not groomed. His brother was the heir, but the Mad King happened.

@Lannister - (view spoiler)[ Count me in on that one. Lyanna was found in a bed of blood. I firmly believe that Jon had just been born. Ned is all about giving his word and she got him to agree he would never let it out whose child Jon was. After all, while most people would welcome Lyanna's child, a Targareyan would have been killed asap.
Rhaegar's other children were murdered brutally, after all.

I haven't met Aegon yet. I don't think. I need to finish Dance damnit.

As for Varys, well. His endgame might be peace when his own puppet is on the throne of Westeros AND Easteros. But other than that, no. I do not buy good intentions. Not from anyone. No way in hell. This series is too brutal for people with good intentions. They just go to hell (like Ned.)
(hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

@Lannister - One more thing. (view spoiler)[You realize that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love? Most probably?

It is really hinted that Rhaegar did not kidnap her, but rather she chose to run with him. In the story of the Frog men that is told to Bran, I am pretty sure, that is what the meaning was.

So maybe that is another reason Lyanna would not let Ned tell anyone whose child Jon was. After all, Robert would have killed him. Maybe Lyanna did know her ex-fiance quite well.
Ned might not have believed her, but once he gave her his word, he was bound. Also, he might not have wanted to think about it, considering they just fought a pointless war for a woman who did not want to be rescued. Though of course things had escalated beyond the point of no return when Ned's father and brother were murdered by the Mad King.
(hide spoiler)]

[Zeenat]

I finished a Game of Thrones (4/5 stars). I didn't really write a review, but here are the thoughts I wrote out:

** World building, excellent. I was surprised actually by the supernatural elements that were in there--more than I expected (since I expected only dragons). I really want to see what's on the other side of the wall.

** The characters are rich and complex. As are their relationships.

** The middle was slow. I wanted to skip ahead during many of those Ned chapters.

** The end, superb. I got chills reading Dany's last couple of chapter. That 14 year old girl is something to be admired. She's the only one with the brain's and guts to be a leader.

** Shakespearean feeling. Cersei = Lady Macbeth. Probably why I hated her as much as I liked her.

My favorite quote: "What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Yay!

Awesome observations, Zeenat.

[Maggie]

RE: the Imp (view spoiler)[
I believe he is a Targ for the following reasons: 1. Re-read his description in aGoT. He sounds Targ-ish. (White blonde instead of the Lannister gold & his mismatched eyes seem like a clue. haven't figured it out yet tho.) 2. In aDwD they state Aegon (the crazy one.) was obsessed w/ Joann Lannister. He made some kinda comment on her & Tywin's wedding night about that law that the king could screw the bride before the groom. Mmmmmm. There was more but.... I need a re-read! Anyways! I think Tyrion is half Targ. It accounts for his father's attitude towards him & Tywin's sudden quitting of his job of Hand for Aegon. If this hunch is true. I believe Tyrion to be one of the 3 dragon riders. :D
(hide spoiler)]
Good quote, Zeenat!

[Arushi]

Really nice observations Zeenat. I love the quote :)

[Lannister]

Arushi, on Rhaegar (view spoiler)[The only person who believes Rhaegar is a kidnapping rapist is Robert, and he's not exactly unbiased! Even Ned seems to think quite well of Rhaegar and if he believed he'd kidnapped and raped his sister, surely he would be angry with him?

Everything we've heard about Rhaegar seems to contradict the idea of a rapist. I believe Lyanna met him at that tournament where he crowned her as the Queen of Love and Beauty (instead of his wife!) and they ran off together because they were in love. There's also a theory that they married and Jon is legitimate. But there isn't any real proof either way of that.
(hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

Maggie, there's a good article on Tower of the Hand about all this stuff ...

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/0...

[Arushi]

Lannister wrote: "Arushi, on Rhaegar"

I agree. (view spoiler)[ Rhaegar comes across as a romantic warrior. He is a Targ and people wonder how he is not crazy. There are so many what-ifs associated with him. If only he had usurped his father before the man went completely crazy, things would have been different.

If the Mad King had not killed Ned's father and brother, the war might still have been averted. But all of that happened, and God, you have to love GRRM for making us care that much.

Rhaegar seems like someone who could be foolish enough to run away without caring for the consequences, if he thought it was his only chance at love. Or at raising a child to fulfill a prophecy. Rhaegar knew about the Prophecy that told of the return of the dragons, remember? That is why he became a warrior in the first place.

And Lyanna was also shown as somewhat rash. She is compared again and again to Arya, after all. But you're right, the fact that Ned still respects Rhaegar can mean that he knew Lyanna was willing. He just does not want to say it to Robert: who was more than biased.

I really want to know Rhaegar's past. He is the most romantic hero in this tale, and honestly, we already know what happened to him. GRRM did not make a world for romance fans.
(hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

Arushi, (view spoiler)[I don't actually think it was foolishness that caused Rhaegar to run off with Lyanna (though it was a pretty foolish thing to do!) He was obsessed with that prophecy about the Prince that was Promised and wanted another child but it seemed that, due to her health, Elia might not be able to give him one. So when he met Lyanna, he had to have her, and damn the consequences! It is fairly arrogant though, to disregard the fact that Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert. He had to have known there were going to be repercussions, but I guess the Targs believed they were almost godlike and the rules don't apply to them!

There's some interesting theories about how most of the Targs go mad in the end, and a bunch of people believe that Dany is starting to lose it and might end up the way of her father. That would be interesting to see!
(hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

For the people who have finished Dance, there's a new teaser chapter from Winds of Winter up on GRRM's website.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-samp...

[Eyehavenofilter]

Lannister here is just another reason that you Rick!

[Eyehavenofilter]

Ooops ROCK!

[Lannister]

LMAO! I try to Rick as often as I can. :D

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Lmao!

[Maggie]

Good article, Lanny. About that...(view spoiler)[
I'll be sooooooooooooooooooooooooo pissed if Jamie is a dragon rider!! I love the underdogs! & Tyrion is the underyest of dogs! Or lions...or dragons for that matter.
RE: the PtwP. Remember when Dany is in the house of the undying? & one of the doors opens to Rhaegar & some dark haired chick w/ a bb. "His is a song of ice & fire." I believe that to be Lyanna & Jon Snow. Not whatsherface from Dorne.
Also, excuse me for saying Aegon. I did mean Aerys. WTF is up w/ the RRs naming all the characters alike!?
Gets confusing!
(hide spoiler)]

[Eyehavenofilter]

If you only knew how funny that really is to me.... It's a long story... Waaaah too personal.... But yes you " Rick" like all get out Lannister babe!

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

I'm reading Fevre Dream. Has anyone of you read that one?

[Lannister]

Maggie (view spoiler)[LOL, I knew who you meant with Aerys rather than Aegon, and yeah, it's just too confusing sometimes!

I don't honestly believe Jaime and Cersei could be Targs or dragon riders. Tyrion has an outside chance of being a Targ and probably a higher chance of being a dragon rider, in my opinion. I think saying Jaime and Cersei are Targs too is waaay too crackpot. I have read so many theories where [insert random character name] must be a secret Targ that I almost can't take any of them seriously any more!

I think because I firmly believe in R+l=J, this is really why I can't believe the Tyrion is a Targ theory. It would seem like GRRM was repeating the same storyline again. We'd have one of the heroes of the story being raised by a father who isn't really his father, but he eventually discovers his secret heritage and possibly achieves great things because of it. It's too similar to Jon's story. If R+l=J is completely disproved, then Tyrion as a Targ becomes plausible, but while there's still a chance of Jon being the 'cuckoo in the nest', I believe that theory more than Tyrion's.

On the House of the Undying, must admit I always took it to be Elia, but since it's a dream-like prophecy, I suppose it could be Lyanna. I assumed Elia because Rhaegar's there with her and the baby. I believed that Lyanna gave birth alone in the Tower of Joy as Rhaegar was off fighting the war against Robert. I can't remember the timeline exactly, but it's possible Rhaegar was actually dead by the time Lyanna gave birth?? But, given how wacky everything was with that whole scene, I suppose you can't rule out Lyanna. :)
(hide spoiler)]

Finally, if you've never much looked at Tower of the Hand, you should def check out some of their articles. They publish excellent essays every so often that are really worth reading.

[Lannister]

Ada-Lee/ eyehavenofilter wrote: "If you only knew how funny that really is to me.... It's a long story... Waaaah too personal.... But yes you " Rick" like all get out Lannister babe!"

I can't shake the feeling I'm somehow being Rick-rolled here LOL!

[Arushi]

LMAO!!

@Lannister - (view spoiler)[ I agree. It could have been that coz Rhaegar was obsessed and seriously he was the Prince. He could have been that arrogant. After all, who would fight with the Prince over a betrothal. Plus he must have thought of it as elopement. So less damning consequences.

Not to mention he expected to grow in power after that.

If Dany goes crazy, I'll... not be that surprised. Right now, one of her dragons has left her. The black one. I dunno what happens later on in Dance, and I need to finish it so I can check out the chapters from Winter, but considering how incestuous they are/have been, it makes sense that all Targs go crazy. (hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

Arushi, (view spoiler)[I get the feeling that betrothals were serious business in Westeros and when you agreed to marry your offspring to someone, it would be like signing a contract in blood! I mean, look what happened to Robb when he backed out of his commitment to marry one of the Freys. Rhaegar must have known the shit would hit the fan, but I believe he thought that the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy was more important than the political fallout from taking Lyanna.

I suppose that is arrogant behaviour, though from what we hear of Rhaegar, he doesn't actually strike me as an arrogant guy. He's been described as bookish, musical and melancholy. But, then, he is a Targ and arrogance and entitlement seem to be second nature to them!

I would love to see Dany going batshit insane! I dunno if it'll happen, but it would make great reading. You need to hurry up and finish Dance, because her ending was very interesting and opens up all sorts of possibilities.
(hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

@Lannister - Too much to read! Too much to read!
(view spoiler)[Yeah the Freys went a little batshit themselves. But then they have had beef with Cat's family for a long time. Considering Lord Frey was called the 'late' Lord Frey by Cat's dad and her brother too had backed out of a betrothal.

Still I guess it is a contract written in blood. And Robb was a fool. Ah well. Starks do get slaughtered for their honor. Wonder what'll off Jon or if he has enough Targ in his to make it.

Taking Lyanna might have been a bit arrogant on Rhaegar's part, but he was not dumb. He had Dorne on his side. Elia was still his wife, after all. He also had Casterly Rock (as Jaime was nearly a hostage) and the Vale should have stayed neutral. He could, technically defeat the Stags, especially if the Starks backed off. Which they might've once Lyanna told them she loved Rhaegar.

So you see. But then here all plans get screwed, especially when made by good guys. I actually liked Oberyn Martell and then he goes and dies.

Btw, I haven't decided if I wanna see Dany come to Westeros yet. Wonder how that'll go. Targs have such an awful, well-deserved rep. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Help!
I am reading A Clash of Kings and have been totally puzzled by something that happens with Theon: I have reread it a couple of times and gone back to the previous Theon chapter and am still puzzled - help!! Detailed spoiler follows.
(view spoiler)[1+ pages from the end of the last Theon chapter when Theon let's his 'saviours' in to Winterfell, Red Helm, the leader of the two hundred that kill Ser Rodick's forces, takes off his helmet and Theon recognises it's Reek...The next para starts "The man laughed..."and ??? Who is the man and woman Red Helm is talking about and what happened? I'm guessing X went incognito as 'Reek', tricked Theon a couple of chapters ago, and has now double crossed him by bringing his own men into Winterfell. But who is he? Roose Bolton? ? (hide spoiler)]

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

(view spoiler)[Roose Bolton's bastard. Roose himself is still in the south. (hide spoiler)]

[Eyehavenofilter]

Now I'm confused.... I need to read C.O.Kings again....I must have missed something really important.....about Reek!

[Lannister]

Anna (view spoiler)[It's as Mello says. The guy pretending to be Reek is Ramsay Bolton, Roose's bastard son.

According to the Song of Ice and Fire Wiki:

Rodrik's party comes across Ramsay shortly after he had raped and killed a peasant girl and his companion Reek had raped the corpse. Ramsay is able to survive by switching clothes with Reek, who is killed in his place. Rodrik yearned to put "Reek" to death too but he needed him alive as he was a witness to many of Ramsay's crimes, so Ramsay narrowly escaped death due to his cunning and willingness to sacrifice others for his own ends.

Hope that makes sense!

I, um, rather dislike Ramsay Bolton!
(hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

I dislike all the Boltons but truly hate the younger one.

[Anna]

Ah thank you. Have now found the incident in Brans POV.
(view spoiler)[Bolton senior is the one in Haranhall with Arya where she has just escaped? End of #2? Right? (hide spoiler)]

[Eyehavenofilter]

Only in the book.not in the HBO series, right?

[Anna]

Definitely in the book. Haven't seen series 2 - waiting for the DVD.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Anna wrote: "Ah thank you. Have now found the incident in Brans POV.
[spoilers removed]"

Yeah, that's him.

[Anna]

Nasty! Reek suits him better.

[Arushi]

Anna wrote: "Nasty! Reek suits him better."

Could not agree more.

[Anna]

I'm about 200 pages into book 3 and for the life of me I still can't see Jaimee Lannister's appeal. Without giving away future plot lines is our Lannister alone in this kingly devotion?

[Lannister]

LOL, I can't speak for anyone else, but I think many people start to see Jaime differently from their initial impressions, and that's the big appeal. They don't worship him (yeah, that's probably just me!) but they go from hating him to empathising with him, and that's a huge change of sentiment from how they might have felt early on.

It's that old saying about not judging someone till you've walked a mile in their shoes. That really applies to Jaime, and I think it's the u-turn of opinion that most appealing.

I loved him from that scene with Catelyn in Clash of Kings (view spoiler)[in Riverrun Dungeon, where he gives his speech about how impossible it was to keep your oaths. Jaime had always been portrayed as a blunt, warrior type, but this showed another side of him for the first time, and he was a lot smarter - and a lot more cynical about his lot in life - rather it first seemed. (hide spoiler)]

But don't feel bad if you still hate him by the end of Feast. Some character work for you, some don't. :)

[Zeenat]

I'll be getting back to these books as soon as the black wing books are done

[Arushi]

@Anna - I really like Jaime. I started out liking to dislike him. I never really could get to hate. But as Lannister says, don't judge when you don't know, really applies to the Kingslayer. Once you get to see his side of the story, you empathize with him. You also finally get to see a better picture of a lot of people. Jaime is observant and he has an awesome memory.

But Jaime, he makes you understand his point. Once he does that, you can never unsee it. I actually like him more than Tyrion right now. GRRM is awesome for the way he's developed his characters.

[Zeenat]

I dislike a lot of what jamie has done (in the first book as that is as far as I have gotten). but I can't bring myself to hate him either. He's GRRM's version of Macbeth :) and it fits cause Cersei is Lady Macbeth. LOL

[Anna]

Which number is Clash of Kings?
Ok so I'll hold my breath a bit longer for Jaimee. I do agree GRRMartin is very good at setting up a point of view then challenging your perception of things.

[Zeenat]

Clash of Kings is 2, I'm starting it tomorrow :)

[Eyehavenofilter]

Lannister wrote: "Anna It's as Mello says. The guy pretending to be Reek is Ramsay Bolton, Roose's bastard son.

According to the Song of Ice and Fire Wiki:Rodrik's party comes across Ramsay shortly after he had ra..."


Ok so its Ramsey who's in the Christmas chapter from 2011?
Or am I crazy?