Brain Pain discussion
The Spine - 2013
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Selecting books for "The Spine 2013"
perec, eco, woolf, broch are great ideas. how about bolano's, the savage detectives and/or 2666? pynchon's, gravity's rainbow? the recognitons?
sorry. just checked and it looks like you have already covered gravity's rainbow and the recognitons.
Mod
Bolano is getting a lot of coverage in other groups right now, so I hadn't considered him. I'll check out the descriptions.
Other difficult books on my shelves that i need a push to get started and support in getting through are; A Book Of Moments-Nadas, Royal Family-Vollmann, Book Of Disquiet-Pessoa, The Museum Of Eterna's Novel-Macedonia Fernandez, Cloud Atlas-Mitchell.
Giles Goat Boy. I have an unread copy - it looks like a mental, frustrating read. I've only read his rather slim first novel. I'd also be keen on some Vollmann as I've always wanted to read him.
Some John Hawkes maybe? I've just finished The Lime Twig, which was aesthetically one of the most satisfying, perfect, mysterious pieces of fiction I've ever read. He seems to have been wholely forgotten about which is a real shame (Barthelme was one of his champions. Flannery O'Connor was another.) I think he's considered difficult - I just found it so aesthetically pungent and captivating, I can't say I felt any enervation...
As for philosophy, Either/Or?
Either/Or is a much better suggestion than the person earlier who said Critique of Pure Reason. Bleh to Kant.
For a short novel maybe The Necessary Marriage (Eastern European Literature)??? 130 pages without punctuation? Eh?
For a short novel maybe The Necessary Marriage (Eastern European Literature)??? 130 pages without punctuation? Eh?
Mod
For a short novel maybe The Necessary Marriage (Eastern European Literature)??? 13..."
Sounds interesting, but could only find one GR review. Will have to look into it as a possible.
Jim wrote: "Jason wrote: "Either/Or is a much better suggestion than the person earlier who said Critique of Pure Reason. Bleh to Kant. .."It's worth reading, in my view, though I'm not deliriously infatuated with Kierkegaard, overall, but I see no reason for mutual exclusivity. "Either" Kant "Or" Kierkegaard? Why not both? It's not as though they're philosophically indistinguishable, but differ only in presentation. (I'll grant that Kierkegaard's a much easier read.)
I didn't find Kant that difficult. I reckon Kierkegaard's the better writer by far and more rewarding in terms of uniqueness and counter-intuitive, subversive attitudes that require greater reflection. Kant is fine, but he just seems so rigid. Haha, that's probably the point! Kierkegaard's influence on the fiction we read and desire to read (either directly or indirectly) is far, far greater than that of Kant, that's for sure.What about John Hawkes? I am putting The Beetle Leg on my list of early 2013 purchases anyway.
At-Swim-Two-Birds isn't really that difficult though, his writing style makes it go down smooth for all the plot's craziness. Kierkegaard would be a better choice than Kant.Kant is a very thereotical thinker and academic writer, whereas Kierkegaard is more enjoyable to actually read.
Right, I want to throw William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience in the ring as I think I will be taking it down next year regardless.That is, if, we still have some options to choose. What about William Vollmann? I think, Patrick, that At Swim Two Birds isn't that difficult for an Irish reader... but outside of that who knows really. I found it enjoyable but a little narrow... and yet I love Donald Barthelme who seems to be a conspicuous American scion of O'Brien's clever-dick beat.
Mod
The James could be a good side read for the Faust project. I wonder if James comments on psychological origins of devils and selling the soul and so on?
Rick wrote: "I didn't find Kant that difficult. I reckon Kierkegaard's the better writer by and more rewarding in terms of uniqueness and counter-intuitive, subversive attitudes that require greater reflection...."Agree about Kierkegaard's more significant influence on contemporary fiction. If that's going to be a determinative factor, though, then non-fiction in the realm of hard science, mathematics and logic won't be given much of a look. Which is ok, if that's the case. It just hadn't been made explicit, though.
Jim wrote: "Rick wrote: "Right, I want throw William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience in the ring as I think I will be taking it down next year. If, we still have some options to choose. What about..."Seems as though it might relate obscurely to his two categories of "pragmatism." ("Tough" pragmatists would certainly have sold out. :) :) )
Kierkegaard above Kant, most certainly, though i have a personal interest in Kant this coming year, but don't know if i'll have the time and/or the chops for him quite yet.I'd also like some Vollman, but not Royal Family... rather Europe Central or the one about Japanese theater, or the..- but no wait, nevermind, some of those Volmanns are very long.
I guess i'd second Mitchell's Cloud Atlas because it's my least-liked Mitchell and i only got a few pages in before pushing it away again.
I look forward to the Woolf and the Murakami. Is the group going to do a Valente? Never done her, but she sounds fun. (Tho sadly not difficult enough? For you mind -masochists, i mean.) I have.. Palimpsest lined up, i think.
Traveller wrote: "Kierkegaard above Kant, most certainly, though i have a personal interest in Kant this coming year, but don't know if i'll have the time and/or the chops for him quite yet.I'd also like some ... Is the group going to do a Valente? ..."
I *want* to do a Valente. (Just reiterating this non-silently and very fast.)
I would second the James myself. Granted, where I would find time for it is beyond me. I do like the Vollman suggestions too.
Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "I'd really only take exception to Nightwood, which I remember with extreme distaste... but hey, I've read it (even if 43 years ago), so I needn't do it again..."In 1995, Dalkey Archi..."
I adore Markson-I'd be happy to re-read WM (for like the 5th time). I'm also curious about Bolano, whom I haven't read yet. I liked Nightwood. And I'd love to read more Vollman, even if he's intimidatingly long.
Markson would be wonderful. It would also be helpful to have the group assist in pushing the Vollman and two Bolano's off my bookshelf into my hands.
Mod
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2oLYf...
"you can't please every one, so you got to please yourself"
and I thought, that sounds a little bit like a grinchy christmas song. Maybe we can please everyone!?!
And so, here's the plan:
Let's read The Varieties of Religious Experience around mid-March after we finish Goethe's Faust I&II. Would be a good supplement to the Faust project.
For Vollman, let's say sometime after 1Q84, which wraps up at the end of July. I don't know his work, so let's see if y'all can reach a consensus on a Vollman book and we'll schedule it for late summer.
For Bolano, I'm a little hesitant because every few months, another book is discovered and published posthumously. Is he still alive on that island with Elvis and Jim Morrison? If you can reach a consensus on a Bolano book, let's look at June or so for a start date. By then, the Magic Realism project will have covered Borges, Juan Rulfo, and Garcia Marquez, and so maybe there will be some extra interest in Bolano.
Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid is also on the radar. Mark is willing to lead that discussion. Any time after March would be good to schedule that.
For philosophy, I thought it might be interesting to prime the pump with a pairing of Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and Wittgenstein’s Mistress. This would put us in territory a little closer to fiction/narrative, and might draw more interest from those without philosophy backgrounds.
After that, whether we look at Kierkegaard, Kant, or whomever, try to reach a consensus here and we can schedule whatever you decide.
All that being said, given the number of books scheduled for the year, I won't be able to lead every discussion. For philosophy especially, I will look for one or more of you to lead those discussions. Also, if any of you have a special affinity for Vollman or Bolano, I'd be happy to hand over the reins for those books as well.
Leading a discussion involves these simple steps:
1. for each week's reading selection, write a very brief summary paragraph and one or two questions designed to start the discussion.
2. monitor the discussions during the week and respond to any questions or clarify any obscure points that might come up - especially important for the philosophy texts.
And that's it. Prior to the reading, I'll prepare a schedule with you and then it's your baby!
Alright, time to finish my coffee and get ready for my very long eating and drinking binge to celebrate the whole Jesus's birthday* thing - LOL!
Warm wishes to all of you!
(*I'm not buying that whole virgin birth scenario. I just can't support the idea that God would cuckold poor Joseph!!!)
Jim wrote: "(*I'm not buying that whole virgin birth scenario. I just can't support the idea that God would cuckold poor Joseph!!!)"
What do you mean...- I'm sure Joseph felt very honoured that his chosen was chosen!! ;)
I must agree that this group is too ambitious for me. I never seem to pop into the threads on time, and by the time i do, everything's already been said... but maybe, just maybe i'll make it in time for one or two reads this year... :)
How about we do a poll or 2 for which Vollman to do, and which Bolano and which Valente? Can members add polls or will you do those for us, Jim, if we suggest a list of books for each author?
Oh, and MERRY XMAS to all the mental masochists around here! :D
Jason wrote: "Either/Or is a much better suggestion than the person earlier who said Critique of Pure Reason. Bleh to Kant. For a short novel maybe The Necessary Marriage (Eastern European Literature)??? 13..."
My feelings towards Țepeneag / onirism more generally are a bit meeh. The techniques / writing style / point of view etc have been done so much in Romanian literature that they no long come off as something especially interesting. However, modernism / postmoderism in Central / Eastern Europe does seem like a very good topic for a future reading project.
Mod
http://www.themillions.com/2013/01/mo...
Near the end, their is this bit about Vollman:
The Dying Grass by William T. Vollmann: The fifth of Vollmann’s Seven Dreams books to appear, The Dying Grass will most likely not see print until summer of 2015, according to his editor. First up is Last Stories, a collection of ghost stories slated to hit bookstores next year. Assuming there still are bookstores next year.
Would anyone be interested in starting his Seven Dreams series this year?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Dr...
We could read Volume 1 & 2 in 2013, then Volume 3 & 6 in 2014, and be primed for a 2015 read of The Dying Grass.
Volume 1 is The Ice-Shirt
Let me know your thoughts...
Honestly, I find the series interesting, but I'm unconvinced after reading a lot of reviews, so I couldn't promise that I'd finish it, personally. I'd need to read some of his writing for myself...I've requested a copy from my library, and give it a whirl.
Mod
I don't know anything about Vollmann's work, so I'm just guessing what might be interesting to read. It sounds like you can't really think of it as fiction, but more as just "writing". I imagine reviews would be lukewarm if people were expecting straight fiction.
If The Ice-shirt arrives before we hear back from other members, let me know what you find.
Jim wrote: "Would anyone be interested in starting his Seven Dreams series this year?"Definitely. I'm über up for it. Yep.
Mod
Definitely. I'm über up for it. Yep."
Great! Let's say a start date between March 15 and April 15. Will confirm details long before that.
Then we could look at Fathers and Crows (Vol. 2) sometime between July and September.
I saw that you're loving The Rainbow Stories. Maybe we can squeeze that in down the road a bit.
I am definitely in for WTV. Based on N.R.'s suggestion I am first going to read the Iceland Sagas to get some Nordic mythery under my belt.
Mod
I'm right behind you on Jane smiley's The Sagas of Icelanders, which is the one Nathan has on the Vollmann Central group discussion.
Looks like The Ice-Shirt is just over 400 pages, so I think we can do it in four weeks of discussion. Will post details after I order the book. We can have a side discussion of the Smiley book too if folks want to.
Jim wrote: "Brian wrote: "I am definitely in for WTV. Based on N.R.'s suggestion I am first going to read the Iceland Sagas to get some Nordic mythery under my belt."I'm right behind you on Jane smiley's The..."
This is terrific. Both of these have been staring down at me from my bookshelves for far too long, and I promised myself that 2013 would be the year I finally start on Vollmann. (I was going to start with his first You Bright and Risen Angels, but if others are in for The Ice-Shirt, let's do it.)
I'm not sure if I will get to it but Vollman is certainly somebody I've wanting to read. And the Seven Dreams series looks awesome in many ways. So maybe I'm in too.
Mod
I thought about YBaRA too, but most opinions seem to say he was really at the beginning of his work, and so might not give the best first impression. I'd rather read it after the hook is set...
@Matthew - The reading time is short, but I suspect the discussions will run long, so plenty of time to jump in when you're free.
I am 150 pages into, The Royal Family. Any thoughts about including it?
Mod
I'm not opposed to it, but I wouldn't be able to get it and read it right away. Would you like to discuss it soon (I'm guessing yes), or can you hold off until later this year, maybe October-ish?
Another alternative, if you don't want to wait for a discussion here, would be to discuss it in the Vollmann Central threads, which I think Nathan would be open to, though I can't speak on his behalf, of course.
Let me know what you think. It might be good to jump over to The Royal Family after we read 2 of his earlier Seven Dreams books.
I hope we do read some Vollman here. I love his writing.
Mod
We'll be starting with The Ice-Shirt around the beginning of April or so. It's about 400 pages, which for Vollmann counts as a novella - LOL!!
Jim wrote: "Stephen wrote: "I am 150 pages into, The Royal Family. Any thoughts about including it?"I'm not opposed to it, but I wouldn't be able to get it and read it right away. Would you like to discuss ..."
Thanks Jim. Since I am so deeply involved now I'll go with the Vollmann thread. This was more about it being so good I want everyone to have a shot at reading it. By October I should be ready for a reread.
Mod
Excellent! By then we'll be primed for Vollmann's journey into the Tenderloin.
Jim wrote: "Stephen wrote: " By October I should be ready for a reread..."Excellent! By then we'll be primed for Vollmann's journey into the Tenderloin."
And what a journey it is. Thanks Jim.
We'll be starting with The Ice-Shirt around the beginning of April or so. It's about 400 pages, which for Vollmann counts as..."You know, 400 pages just doesn't seem as daunting as it did a year ago.
Matthew wrote: "We'll be starting with The Ice-Shirt around the beginning of April or so. It's about 400 pages, which for Vollmann counts as..."You know, 400 pages just doesn't seem as daunting as it did a year..."
A brisk walk in the park, that one.
Mod
2013
The Ice-Shirt April 1-28, ~400 pgs., 4 weeks
Fathers and Crows June 10 - August 18, ~1000 pgs., 10 weeks
The Royal Family Sept. 16 - Nov. 10, ~800 pgs., 8 weeks
2014
Argall ~770 pgs., 8 weeks
The Rifles ~430 pgs., 4 weeks
Either You Bright and Risen Angels or maybe Whores for Gloria or maybe, maybe The Rainbow Stories
2015
The Dying Grass, when it's released, and whatever else we're interested in that year.
In general, I like to break books into 100 pages per week to make the reading schedule not too frantic.
So, all you Vollmanniacs*, let me know what you think.
(*Nathan, if you find that offensive, I vow never to write it again!)
Mod
The NY Review of Books Classics series will be publishing an edition of Renata Adler's book Speedboat this coming March.
Rachel first brought this book to my attention over a year ago in the context of being on the reading list for a course taught by DF Wallace when he was teaching at Pomona College.
Reading the description, it reminds me a bit of how William Vollmann's work is sometimes described. What I would propose is reading Speedboat in May, between our reads of The Ice-Shirt and Fathers & Crows. It's only 200 pages, so we could easily knock it out with a 2-week read/discussion.
All in favor say "eye"...
Eye. I'd love to know what else was on that reading list.
Casceil wrote: "Eye. I'd love to know what else was on that reading list."I can't resist a search challenge. I found this syllabus, although it is obviously from a different class than the one from whence 'Speedboat' came. DFW Reading list et. al.
Mod
http://www.goodreads.com/list/user_vo...
Speedboat is on the list, as well as Nightwood, which we'll be reading this May.
Jim wrote: "Tentative plans for the Vollmann project:2013
The Ice-Shirt April 1-28, ~400 pgs., 4 weeks
Fathers and Crows June 10 - August 18, ~1000 pgs., 10 weeks
The Royal Family Sept. 16 - Nov. 10, ~800..."
I am in! Thanks Jim for putting the reading list / schedule together. Really looking forward to it - the Icelandic Sagas whet the Ice Shirt appetite.
Jim wrote: "So, all you Vollmanniacs*, let me know what you think.(*Nathan, if you find that offensive, I vow never to write it again!) "
Good man! Not at all. I've been using the -ites suffix, but -iacs is also good, and clearly more informative.
Brain Pain
Books mentioned in this topic
Nightwood (other topics)Speedboat (other topics)
Speedboat (other topics)
Fathers and Crows: A Book of North American Landscapes (other topics)
Argall: The True Story of Pocahontas and Captain John Smith (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Karen Tei Yamashita (other topics)Catherynne M. Valente (other topics)
Georges Perec (other topics)
Bruno Schulz (other topics)
In 1995, Dalkey Archive published this critical edition which apparently restores the language and scenes that her friend Emily Coleman and editor TS Eliot removed before publication. I'm assuming they removed the naughty bits that would have been judged obscene by 1936 mores.
http://www.dalkeyarchive.com/book/?GC...
This edition is temporarily unavailable, but if Nightwood remains on the list, I'll contact Dalkey to see if it will be reprinted in time for our reading. Maybe the restored version will be more cohesive than the censored version.
Don't think of it as 'shunting aside' the philosophy, but rather, giving it its own space to be examined at length. I think the Hofstafdter could occupy us for 8 weeks, or longer if necessary. Maybe after that we could move to the Wittgenstein and follow it with Markson's fictional 'response' - Wittgenstein’s Mistress. After that, we could pursue whatever seems interesting.