Catch -22

[Lisa, the usurper]

This is the group read for November. Please remember to be respectful when you post and to put spoiler alerts on your threads. Thanks!

[Lisa, the usurper]

I did pick up my copy from the library and will start as soon as I finish EOE.

[Lisa]

Going to start this today. I am reading so many books this month. Hoping to finish this before the month is out though. =)

[Julie]

I've read several chapters and will bow out this month. I just don't find it interesting for my taste. I will catch you all next month! Julie

[Lisa, the usurper]

I have my copy and have read a few pages, see how it goes.

[Casceil]

I have my copy, but have only read the beginning. As usual, I am trying to finish a couple of other books at the same time. I recently finished a new book I liked a lot, called Bill Lynn's Long Halftime walk. On the cover, the book is described as the "Catch-22 for the Iraq War." So now I curious to compare the two books.

[Lisa, the usurper]

I have only gotten a few pages into the book, but it has made me laugh so far discussing his censorship of the letters that are being sent home.

[Shadow Jubilee]

I read this years ago. It definitely made me laugh out loud often, but it took me a few tries to actually finish it.

[Lisa, the usurper]

This book is rather hard to get a handle on. I get the sarcasm and the humor, but there are times that the insane dialogs just get to me. I wonder if I could promote such dialogs with other people in my daily life? I feel like I'm reading a book when Bugs Bunny tricks Daffy Duck into saying the opposite thing that he means to, ok maybe I'm bringing the book to life with this post. Forgive my ramblings, I think that I have a fever, doctor! Lol!

[Casceil]

I'm only about 25 pages in and I'm guessing, but my working assumption is that these soldiers find themselves in such a surreal situation that they use sarcasm and humor as coping mechanisms.

[Lisa, the usurper]

I'm sure that is the reason, but would be very hard to hold a long conversation with anyone except the Texan in this book so far.

[Daniel]

(I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a spoiler in this group, so please point out if I cross the line at any point in this discussion...)

I love reading classics like this, where the title has entered the popular lexicon and evolved into something self-supporting. It's similar to how Frankenstein conjures an image of the monster rather than the doctor. "Dr. Frankenstein's monster" slips into a simplified shorthand that takes on a life of its own.

I've always understood "Catch-22" to mean a choice where both options are equally bad or self-defeating, but that's not really the case here. It's more a circuitously absurd bureaucratic logic that prevents an action from happening in the first place.

The dialog follows that same pattern, because it goes around in circles without ever really accomplishing anything. It's a bit dizzying, but I do appreciate how the narrative style supports and reinforces the absurdity of Catch-22.

[Casceil]

Circuitous is a good word for both the logic and the conversational style. I guess I always thought of a Catch-22 as a kind of trap: to do A, you must first do B, but you can't do B until you have done C, and before you can do C you must do A.

[Daniel]

Near the beginning of the book, there is mention of Milo buying eggs at 7 cents and selling them for a profit at 5 cents. I've just finished the part where Milo explains how that profit is made, and it's perhaps even more absurd and circular than the rest of the book. But then I find myself asking: Is this really any different from how many companies make a profit in the "real" world?

[Casceil]

Random fact I picked up reading another book. Joseph Heller flew 60 combat missions.

[Lisa, the usurper]

I was actually wondering if he had any military experience, it seemed that he would with some of the stories that he presented.

[Daniel]

Heller flew with the 340th Bomb Group, and the daughter of that unit's commander actually just published a book this year in an attempt to tell the real-life story of her father and his war buddies:

The True Story of Catch 22: The Real Men and Missions of Joseph Heller's 340th Bomb Group in World War II

It's probably a bit off-track for this discussion (since Catch-22 is about the absurdity of war rather than a heroic retelling), but it sort of ties in with the reality that undoubtedly inspired Heller.

[Lisa, the usurper]

Thanks for that Daniel, it would be interesting to read about the back story which inspired Heller, sometimes those stories are more interesting. How is everyone doing with this book so far?

[Casceil]

I'm about 180 pages in. I'm enjoying the book. Heller finds an amazing number of ways to point out the moral ambiguity inherent in the situation. The various discussions of God, and what God (if there is one) wants, and whether God is good or what his purpose is, all intertwine nicely. I particularly liked the discussion that ended with Lieutenant Scheisskopf's wife getting upset by the things Yossarian says about God. He asks why she is getting so upset. "I thought you didn't believe in God." "I don't ," she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. "But the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be." (from p. 178.

[Casceil]

Another interesting recurring theme is responsibility. Signing letters with an alias comes to mind. When Yossarian "goes around twice," and he hits the target but gets Craft killed, his superiors debate whether to reprimand him or give him a medal. There are so many well-meaning characters who seem to not be sure what it is they are supposed to do, and so many mixed messages from those in command.

[Daniel]

I've just reached the part where Milo (view spoiler)[steers Colonel Cathcart into having others fly his missions because he is indispensible to the syndicate, and fair is fair. By the end of that conversation, Cathcart is parroting Milo like some storm trooper being mind-controlled by a Jedi Knight. (hide spoiler)]

While some people say that Milo is a disgrace that shouldn't have appeared in print—especially when he (view spoiler)[strafes his own air base (hide spoiler)]—I think Heller has done an incredible job of portraying the war profiteer by imagining what would happen if he were removed from the homeland and inserted into the war zone.

[Michael]

It's about six weeks later, now, and I'm wondering if people finished the book. I read Catch-22 back in the late '60s, as a teenager, and thought it very funny. Then I picked it up again in the 1990s sometime and tried to re-read it, and I just couldn't get very far with it. How did any of you feel by the end, if you reached the end?

[Casceil]

I didn't reach the end, because there were too many other books I wanted to read that month. I still plan to finish it someday. I moved it back to my TBR list.

[Lisa, the usurper]

I didn't finish it either. Moved it back to my TRP also. I got about 50 pages in and just could not get into it. I'm not sure why, although the writing did drive me crazy toward the end. I think that is why the discussion fell off, I guessing that people just didn't finish it.

[Casceil]

I got further than 50 pages, and it got better (more engaging) as it went along, but there were slow patches, and I got diverted during one of them. I would have gone back to it if there had not been so many other books I wanted to discuss at the time in the way, including Woman in White and Infinite Jest. Then the "month" it was assigned to ended, and I just moved on, figuring nobody else was still reading.

[Michael]

It puzzled me that, at first reading (and younger age), I found it sardonically amusing, definitely a little subversive, and fun to read.

Whereas, on the second time around, I found it just deadly. It didn't read with any aliveness, and it wasn't funny to me at all. Sometime in between I had tried another of Heller's books (think it was Good As Gold), and gave up on it pretty quickly.

[Lisa, the usurper]

Michael wrote: "It puzzled me that, at first reading (and younger age), I found it sardonically amusing, definitely a little subversive, and fun to read.

Whereas, on the second time around, I found it just deadly..."

Why do you think that is? Just the perspective with time or something else? That has been the interesting and fun thing about doing this group, it has forced me to reread some of the "nightmare" reads from my younger years and many of them have become some of my favorite books after the reread.

[Casceil]

Over the last year I have reread a number of books I read in college, when I was too young to appreciate them. The results have been interesting. I loved "Vanity Fair," this time around, but I couldn't make it through "Middlemarch." The big surprise, though, has been "To the Lighthouse." I just didn't get it when I was younger. Now that I reached (and slightly passed) the age of the Mrs. Ramsey character, now the novel strikes me as brilliant.

[Michael]

That's a wonderful thing, Casceil, when a book gets richer and catches up with you. : )

Lisa, I suspect it has to do with Catch-22 hardening a bit with age, and my maturing into a, uh, better age myself. The comedy didn't stand up for me the second time around, and the longueurs you and others mentioned were impossible for me to take when the good stuff wasn't even good anymore.

Heller had a '60s attitude, to use shorthand, and that is something that hasn't always stood the test of time, I find.

[GeneralTHC]

I've been reading along with the audiobook a little at a time for the past several months and I think it's absolutely hilarious. You have to be in the right mood for it though. The audiobook is amazing. The guy does a fabulous job of expressing the feelings of the characters with his voice. If I didn't have it on audio and it wasn't this very guy narrating it a lot of it probably would have been lost on me.

[Casceil]

I may have to look into getting the audiobook. I am currently reading Yellow Birds, which, like Billy Lynn's Long Half Time Walk, is about soldiers who fought in Iraq. Based on what I read of Catch 22, I'm sure it was an influence on the author of Yellow Birds. Who reads the audio version you have?

[GeneralTHC]

Casceil wrote: "Who reads the audio version you have? "

Jim Weiss is reading the one I have. It's pretty old but it's very good. I think you can still get it through Amazon. I listened to a sample of the one audible is currently offering and I thought it was just awful compared to the reading by Weiss. I can't imagine why they're are not still using it.

[Casceil]

Amazon seems to be selling the same audio version that is on audible. Eventually I will get back to reading this. What I like about audio books is that they are "found reading time," usually when I am driving to and from work.

[Kerri, the sane one]

Chuck, thanks for the tip. I love audiobooks and I totally agree with Casceil that I can experience so many more books in a year because of all the times I get a chance to listen to the book, like in the car or while doing dishes and such. I also find audiobooks especially helpful for books that I get bogged down in reading. Sounds like Catch-22 might be a perfect one to listen to.

[GeneralTHC]

Audiobooks are definitely useful. I like to read when I'm at my computer for the most part, but if I'm doing anything else, working, laying in bed, exercising etc. I'll listen to an audiobook.

[Gary]

I read Catch-22 many years ago and have just now started reading it again. Because I also have other books lined up to read and am actively reading another book, I think it might be a good time to start listening to audio books. Like Chuck said I can listen to the book when I don't have time to actually sit down and read.

[Gilles]

If I was to read Catch-22 again, I think I would read the chapters in random order. As I recall, each chapter tells the same story from a different person's viewpoint with the same scenes repeated over and over. It seems the order in which you read the different chapters does not matter. Was I allucinating? I know of only one other novel structured this way: The Vigata's Opera by Andrea Camilleri.