November 2012 - He Died With His Eyes Open

[Michael, Anti-Hero]

This month we are reading He Died With His Eyes Open

[Toby]

About time you all read this book! If it's not the best book I've read this year (and it's close) it's certainly the darkest and afterwards I could never be the same again (as far as reading this genre went at least.)

If you feel like some "typical book group" discussion questions how about thinking about why Raymond chose to make his protagonist nameless?

Did you even notice the lack of name? Personally I didn't, I was so absorbed in the narrative.

In Anthony's excellent review he points out the uniqueness of the protagonists approach towards solving the crime (putting himself in the victims shoes so well that the line of identity becomes blurred) how did this effect your enjoyment compared to if it had been a typical "get in the mind of the killer" piece of detection?

In my review back in April I wrote the following:

The lead character is from the old school pulp noir territory, down these dark oppressive roads a man must walk, not because he chooses to but because he must type stuff. A loner because he chooses to be, taking chances with his life to ensure justice for those who otherwise wouldn't receive it yet with a worldview that never quite reaches the depths of despair no matter what the situation.

do you feel the same way? Is the protagonist a familiar character to noir/pulp readers, can his origins be traced back to Spade or is his creation something a little more British, something a little more working class, the kind of man that can only be created by an upper class Brit choosing to wallow in the slums such as Derek Raymond?

As the film noir afficionado in moderatordom (Adam may actually be an even bigger fan than me, hence the disclaimer) I'm curious if anybody has managed to watch the 1985 French movie adaptation On ne meurt que deux fois that starred the wonderful Charlotte Rampling?

In addition to that, I recently read the first Rebus novel Knots and Crosses which reminded me quite a lot of this book, has anybody else read it? Did you also see the similarities?

Raymond has been called the father of British Noir, are there any other novels you've read that have clearly been influenced by Derek Raymond's Factory Series?

Some thoughts to be going on with as you enjoy taking a journey in to the depths of human depravity with a hardboiled hero at your side.

[Mohammed]

I have just started reading this and it will be brand new experience for me in that i have never read UK noir. I have read Irish noir set in London or somewhere else in UK but those were very Irish culture,irish slang.

Nice to experience underbelly of London with UK slang written book. I had no clue what berk was, i had to look up in Wiktionary it was.

[Toby]

Mohammed wrote: "I have just started reading this and it will be brand new experience for me in that i have never read UK noir. I have read Irish noir set in London or somewhere else in UK but those were very Iris..."

That's not even somehting I considered whilst reading it! I imagine there's a lot of colloquialisms in this book to keep your wiktionary in use.

[Mohammed]

Tfitoby wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I have just started reading this and it will be brand new experience for me in that i have never read UK noir. I have read Irish noir set in London or somewhere else in UK but tho..."

Thats because its something we take for granted when you are from similar language,culture as the book or like me who have learned despite being outside culture. First time i read Irish modern books,noir or not i had to find Irish slang dictionary too.

Its good going in blind to this book, i didnt know the narrator was a cop, his comments on the world around him is fascinating. Reading the account by Stannshild(sp?) is bleak poetry.

[Toby]

Mohammed wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I have just started reading this and it will be brand new experience for me in that i have never read UK noir. I have read Irish noir set in London or somewhere el..."

I think that poetry is what puts this book on to a whole new level from your run of the mill noir. It's certainly what was lacking in the Ian Rankin copy of it.

[Mohammed]

Tfitoby wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I have just started reading this and it will be brand new experience for me in that i have never read UK noir. I have read Irish noir set in Londo..."

Yeah its clear his more emotional truth, more literary noir than run of the mill noir authors. Reads like the best modern ones i have read like Sallis,Bruen.

[Mohammed]

Alberto the way Raymond uses the victims writings,tape recording remind of Lew Griffin books by James Sallis. Using very clear storytelling techniques to say what he wants about the characters,their world. Difference the writer whose paper you are reading is the victim here and not the POV character. Similar poetic noir writers that dont care about plot as much what they want to say about the characters,exploring social issues that feels real,unglamorous.

I bet Raymond will invent similar techniques in other books but this time the cop narrator is talking to the reader directly somehow.

I rate specially writers like this who are non-linear, unpredictable. While some readers diss for not being straight PI,noir stories.

[Cyndi]

I absolutely loved this choice!

Dark, grimy and full of characters past the point of redemption. Sleazy to the nth!

The nameless DS was so edgy! IMO being nameless served his character well; implying his Everyman status and lending to his chosen life of anonymity. His chosen path to speak for the dead and damn the consequences!

I am also currently reading Daid Peace's Red Riding Quartet, causing no end of comparison. Yet this one seems to give the protagonist the power to go over the line and come back; whereas Peace's work ends with the characters losing all!

Will read more of the DS' adventures.

[Toby]

Cyndi wrote: "I absolutely loved this choice!

Dark, grimy and full of characters past the point of redemption. Sleazy to the nth!

The nameless DS was so edgy! IMO being nameless served his character well; im..."

Great comparison Cyndi! I'm reading the third Factory book How the Dead Live and the David Peace comparison is much more obvious (granted this is based on reading the first book and watching all of the TV series.)

[Toby]

Alberto wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "Did you even notice the lack of name? Personally I didn't, I was so absorbed in the narrative."
I didn't notice it until halfway the narration, and maybe just because I read about i..."

Your supposition is right Alberto, but the second book remains very strong.

I've previously given the nameless detective series a wide berth, it felt like an average set of books and therefore not worth the time needed to read through them all. Am I wrong?

Kiss Before Dying on the other hand seems like a book worth taking the time to find. Good recommendation.

[Cyndi]

Tfitoby wrote: "Cyndi wrote: "I absolutely loved this choice!

Dark, grimy and full of characters past the point of redemption. Sleazy to the nth!

The nameless DS was so edgy! IMO being nameless served his char..."

I will continue the Fatory Series...it's like a car crash...cannot pass it by...gotta stop and rub my nose in it...such a sucker for punishment I am!!

[Toby]

Cyndi wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "Cyndi wrote: "I absolutely loved this choice!

Dark, grimy and full of characters past the point of redemption. Sleazy to the nth!

The nameless DS was so edgy! IMO being nameless..."

I gave my copy of Nineteen Seventy Four to someone who hated it for being too bleak, but they still didn't give it back. They don't get any friendlier do they?

[Mohammed]

I finished it one hour ago in the library and i feel emotionally drained and a bit shell shocked. I was starting to think it was getting slower in the end but it ended so well. The narrator and Staniland was great to read. Like i wrote in my review, i was really moved by the way the characters, the writer explored human emotions no matter how bleak.

The copper lead was a good contrast to all that bad people, him being moved Staniland was good for the book. I almost worry reading the second book or next Raymond book. The combination of the cop and Charlie Staniland was brilliant. Hard to see how he can match this.

It was a rare book to me even outside noir books that is great. I dont want to see Raymond failing to reach this level.

[Ctgt]

So, I'm just about finished(90%), but just read the section talking about the cathedral(I think it was chapter 32) and I can't figure out what that section has to do with the overall storyline. In his mind, is Stan receiving some sort of absolution for what he is doing? Why the reference to the people and bishops being from the past? Is this the point that he gains his freedom from Barbara?

I realize it's a dream, but I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around the sequence.

[Mohammed]

Ctgt wrote: "So, I'm just about finished(90%), but just read the section talking about the cathedral(I think it was chapter 32) and I can't figure out what that section has to do with the overall storyline. In ..."

I dont think you are meant to understand it other than maybe taking it symbolically. It and several other writing of Stan have nothing to do with the overall storyline it just shows really well he was a messed up,complex person. He wasnt always making sense.

Also he is a writer, they tend to be poetic even in their dreams.

[Ctgt]

Mohammed wrote: "Ctgt wrote: "So, I'm just about finished(90%), but just read the section talking about the cathedral(I think it was chapter 32) and I can't figure out what that section has to do with the overall s..."

You may be right. I thought I was missing something more obvious.

[Mohammed]

Ctgt wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "Ctgt wrote: "So, I'm just about finished(90%), but just read the section talking about the cathedral(I think it was chapter 32) and I can't figure out what that section has to do w..."

Trust me you werent, i re-read that part 5-6 times just because it was so weird, out there. The meaning i took from it changed like every 5 minutes.

[Ctgt]

Tfitoby wrote: "In addition to that, I recently read the first Rebus novel Knots and Crosses which reminded me quite a lot of this book, has anybody else read it? Did you also see the similarities? "

I finished Knots and Crosses not too long ago and see some similarities. Also reminds me of Harry Hole from the Jo Nesbø books.

[Toby]

Ctgt wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "In addition to that, I recently read the first Rebus novel Knots and Crosses which reminded me quite a lot of this book, has anybody else read it? Did you also see the similarities?..."

I've not tried any Nesbo yet, wasn't exactly thrilled with Mankell or Larsson so didn't bother, but if it's similar to Raymond and Rankin it might be worth a look, if I ever find a copy secondhand.

[Mohammed]

I have read Rankin series first two books and dark british crime mustn't be similar other than the superficial parts like the settings,character. It depends on your preference and what you have read. To me Raymond is more similar to Bruen,Sallis. Noir authors who have detective lead in noir story and no detective story,plot focus.

Rankin is to me more generic detective crime than brilliant book like this.

Rankin series was more similar Harry Bosch books by Micahel Connelly characters wise. Decent reads but hardly the best in the field. The kind i grew out of to read best PI,noir authors.

[Ctgt]

Tfitoby wrote: "Ctgt wrote: "Tfitoby wrote: "In addition to that, I recently read the first Rebus novel Knots and Crosses which reminded me quite a lot of this book, has anybody else read it? Did you also see the ..."

I guess it's the main characters that seem similar, maybe not so much the writing style. In The Redbreast, Hole gets moved to a different department for political reasons and ends up working the case that he wants instead of what his boss has assigned to him and he's somewhat on his own.

But I must say, Raymond is almost in a league of his own. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything quite like He Died With His Eyes Open.

Mohammed,
I thought of Bruen also, but wasn't sure if that was due to the style itself or if I just got caught up in the slang and setting. I don't know.

[Mohammed]

I think of Bruen not because britis,irish slang,setting but the whole Taylor/nameless cop stories not being about PI solving cases or a cop solves cases but trying to understand the underbelly of their society, the mundane good,evil they see in everyday people,criminals.

Bruen has more dark humor and differet prose style but its the same thing they are trying to do. Both are very semi-autobiographical in their setting, using their life experience.

[Ctgt]

Mohammed wrote: "I think of Bruen not because britis,irish slang,setting but the whole Taylor/nameless cop stories not being about PI solving cases or a cop solves cases but trying to understand the underbelly of t..."

I've only read The Guards and He Died With His Eyes Open from each author, so I really need to read more of both before I make too many comparisons. But I do agree about looking into the underbelly, the case is almost secondary.

You are dead on about Ken Bruen and his dark humor. I found myself laughing out loud quite a few times while reading.

[Mohammed]

Ctgt wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I think of Bruen not because britis,irish slang,setting but the whole Taylor/nameless cop stories not being about PI solving cases or a cop solves cases but trying to understand th..."

Also Jack Taylor books after book 1 gets even less PI plot,solving cases and is basically like the nameless cop sitting in his apartment listening to Staniland trying to understand,explore his world emotionally. The cop in this book is just a better person than Jack Taylor will ever be. I was worried he would become a hopeless drunk at times in the book. Thinking no let him be good and not another brilliant noir about hopeless lead like Taylor.....

Which is why i expect great things from the rest of Raymond books in the cycle.

[Bobbi]

Finished last night. I am so glad I joined this group, not sure I would have found this book and author otherwise! A great read.

[Ctgt]

Bobbi wrote: "Finished last night. I am so glad I joined this group, not sure I would have found this book and author otherwise! A great read."

I agree Bobbi. There would have been zero chance of me reading this title if not for this group.

[[deleted user]]

Mohammed wrote: "I think of Bruen not because britis,irish slang,setting but the whole Taylor/nameless cop stories not being about PI solving cases or a cop solves cases but trying to understand the underbelly of t..."

I have read the first two Taylor novels and three of Bruen's stand-alones. I can't seem to really get into him though. His books are quick to read an have some really cool parts, but his writing comes off to cartoony to me. And he spends way too much time trying to let you know all the books, movies, and music he likes.

[[deleted user]]

I feel like David Cronenberg could have made a hell of a movie out of this book back in the eighties.

[Toby]

Anthony wrote: "I feel like David Cronenberg could have made a hell of a movie out of this book back in the eighties."

There's supposedly a tv series in pre-production but i can't see it working. Perhaps my imagination is just limited.

[Ctgt]

Tfitoby wrote: "There's supposedly a tv series in pre-production but i can't see it working. Perhaps my imagination is just limited. "

Who's doing it? God, I hope they don't screw it up!

[Toby]

I can't remember where I saw it, possibly imdb. I assumed it was a British production but can't confirm any details. My mind just assumes Jason Statham/the worse.

[Stephen]

Enjoyed this - completely different from anything else that I've ever read and very evocative of Thatcher's Britain in the Eighties. Found the author quite interesting too - here's a comment about him: "After undergoing interrogation by the Dutch police force in connection with an insurance scam related to the apparent theft of a Rembrandt painting, he claimed to have given up a life of actual crime for good in favor of a life of writing about it".

Have I Was Dora Suarez out from the library so going to try that one as well - anyone read it ?

[Mohammed]

Anthony wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I think of Bruen not because britis,irish slang,setting but the whole Taylor/nameless cop stories not being about PI solving cases or a cop solves cases but trying to understand th..."

The early Jack Taylor have the flaw that i wasnt keen on either which is the many references to other noir books,other famous authors. He can overdo that but he stops after a while. Or maybe you mean you dont get the irish author references?

His rambling prose style,writing style is one of the reasons he is loved by his fans, critics. Thats is his strenght and it depends what kind of noir you like. He isnt as lean prose as Derek Raymond.

[Ctgt]

Mohammed wrote: "His rambling prose style,writing style is one of the reasons he is loved by his fans, critics. Thats is his strenght and it depends what kind of noir you like. He isnt as lean prose as Derek Raymond. "

I think you are right about Raymond being leaner (maybe also cleaner?)than Bruen.

I must say, in The Guards, I really enjoyed the way he used not only the phrasing, but also the physical layout of the words on the page and I believe both those techniques made for a great pace to a book that, frankly, wasn't exactly action packed.

[Toby]

Stephen wrote: "Enjoyed this - completely different from anything else that I've ever read and very evocative of Thatcher's Britain in the Eighties. Found the author quite interesting too - here's a comment about ..."

I have just finished the third book so Dora Suarez is next. From the bits and pieces I've read about it it's much bleaker than this one. I hope you've got your sun lamp and night light out to counteract the effect it has on you.

[Melki, Femme fatale]

I had to laugh over the brother - Grampian and his lovely (gag) wife.

[Toby]

Melki wrote: "I had to laugh over the brother - Grampian and his lovely (gag) wife."

I've come across plenty of people like that in my time and they don't get any better in real life!

[Lawyer]

About a quarter into the book and thoroughly enjoying it. Rather brings John Donne's Meditation XIX to mind. Every man's death diminishes me.

[Lawyer]

Damn, that was a fine read. As another member mentioned, I would have never discovered Raymond without this group. If anyone is interested, my review is available at http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

[Jeffrey]

I really have to say thanks to the Pulp Fiction Group and the moderators for picking this book. It was so surprisingly good on two very important levels for me. It certainly was hardboiled, no softboiled prose here, and listening to Staniland's tapes along with the nameless detective certainly brought a more philosophical/literary aspect to the novel. This is a book that should exceed the genre. Like the fine reviewer Mike Sullivan I also had to post a review of this book. My Review

[Mohammed]

Jeffrey wrote: "I really have to say thanks to the Pulp Fiction Group and the moderators for picking this book. It was so surprisingly good on two very important levels for me. It certainly was hardboiled, no soft..."

It has a rep far from the usual decent noir in the genre. The critics and fans hail it as more as a great novel period.

[Kenny]

I am another one who is happy with this choice. I read a great book that I would not have picked up otherwise. Love the monthly read.

[Stephen]

Would also recommend his fourth book in the Factory series(I Was Dora Suarez) to anyone that liked He Died With His Eyes Open - more of the same sort of writing but even more violent and even more "Thatcher's Britain in the Eighties" style depression. I preferred it and found the ending more satisfying although both were great. Echo the feelings of others on this thread - thanks again to this group for introducing me to an author that I otherwise wouldn't have found.

[Toby]

Stephen wrote: "Would also recommend his fourth book in the Factory series(I Was Dora Suarez) to anyone that liked He Died With His Eyes Open - more of the same sort of writing but even more violent and even more ..."

You've read all 4 in a month Stephen? That's good going. I'm undecided whether to safe the fourth book or just dive in. You're not the first to mention just how good it is and its got me a little excited.

[Stephen]

Tfitoby wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Would also recommend his fourth book in the Factory series(I Was Dora Suarez) to anyone that liked He Died With His Eyes Open - more of the same sort of writing but even more violen..."

No, I cheated and skipped to the fourth one after reading that it was his "best and most repulsive work" - still to read books two and three but am planning to do that. Wasn't much reference to the previous books so don't think it's that important what order you read them in.

[Mohammed]

Melki wrote: "I had to laugh over the brother - Grampian and his lovely (gag) wife."

I had to laugh at the fake brother,trying to me more than he was. The wife was too hysterical for me. She was too much in the few pages she was in. I find her to be a weird part of the book.

[Melki, Femme fatale]

They win my vote for couple I'd most like to strap into a car and send over a cliff.

Do I even need to mention that SHE reminds me of my mother-in-law?

[Guillermo]

I finished this book a little to late to comment, but I want to thank whoever recommended this read. I'm planing on reading the rest of Factory series. I'm glad to have finally read a modern noir writer.

[Toby]

Ismael wrote: "I finished this book a little to late to comment, but I want to thank whoever recommended this read. I'm planing on reading the rest of Factory series. I'm glad to have finally read a modern noir w..."

There's always time to join the discussion Ismael, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Looks like Lawrence Block is going to win January's read so you're in for a second modern master of the genre soon.