Background and Resources

[Roger]

Thomas wrote: "Two Lectures to the Florentine Academy On the Shape, Location and Size of Dante's Inferno

by Galileo Galilei, 1588

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/mpe...

(Mazzotta in on..."

It looks to me like Galileo had great fun with this. He makes Hell a covered conical valley with an apex angle of 60 degrees, extending from the center of the Earth up to 405 15/22 miles below the surface (his miles seem to be a little longer than ours). This makes the radius of Hell at the outer reaches of Limbo about 2840 miles. However, each level steps inwards some distance, so the cone gets narrower as you go down.

The size Galileo reports seems impossible--far more than a flesh-and-blood Dante could traverse in one night. There is a vertical climb down of over 405 miles between most levels, and the levels are 16-112 miles across. He has each of the bolgias in the Circle of the Fraudulent as 1/2 mile across, but the first bolgia contains only two files of countermarching panders and seducers, so the width seems excessive.

I don't think it's possible to draw a map of Hell that is really consistent with both the Inferno and late medieval geography. But it's fun to try.

[Thomas]

Roger wrote: "This makes the radius of Hell at the outer reaches of Limbo about 2840 miles. However, each level steps inwards some distance, so the cone gets narrower as you go down..."


Wow! That's quite a bit larger than Florence. Thanks for looking at the math. It sounds like Dante wasn't too careful about his calculations. Why do you suppose he was so specific about distance at times, like the ninth bolgia being 22 miles around? Was he just eyeballing it?

[Roger]

Thomas wrote: "Roger wrote: "This makes the radius of Hell at the outer reaches of Limbo about 2840 miles. However, each level steps inwards some distance, so the cone gets narrower as you go down..."


Wow! That..."

Eyeballing is all I can come up with.

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "http://www.ivodavidfineart.com/Divine...

These may be somewhere else among our links, but tonight was my first awareness of this still another set of illustrations of Commedia, these by Iv..."

One interesting thing about this artist is that he also did illustrations for Purgatory and Paradise. I don't think Dore did, did he?

[Everyman]

Roger wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Roger wrote: "This makes the radius of Hell at the outer reaches of Limbo about 2840 miles. However, each level steps inwards some distance, so the cone gets narrower as you go down...."

I wonder why his Beatrice is shown as basically nude. Most of the figures in Hell seem to have been naked, but in Paradise also?

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "One interesting thing about this artist is that he also did illustrations for Purgatory and Paradise. I don't think Dore did, did he? ..."

This site has thumbnails of Dore's illustrations for each of the sections of the Commedia:

www.worldofdante.org/gallery_dore.html

Now, while we are discussing this, let me see for Blake:
http://www.blakearchive.org/exist/bla...

Seem to be illustrations for all three sections at well.

[Roger]

The 22 December issue of The Economist has an article about Hell ("Intero everlasting fire," pp. 25-28). They're pretty down on the idea. The article covers pretty much all the ideas of Hell--pagan, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, medieval, Protestant, modern--but they pass pretty lightly over Christ's: "And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life " (Mt 25:46).

Merry Christmas, everyone.

[Everyman]

Roger wrote: "The 22 December issue of The Economist has an article about Hell ("Intero everlasting fire," pp. 25-28). They're pretty down on the idea. The article covers pretty much all the ideas of Hell--pa..."

I assume that they're using Hell, then, not always in the modern dictionary definition sense of a place of post-death punishment, but as the location of the soul and/or body after death, since some of these belief systems don't see the afterlife as a place of eternal punishment.

[Roger]

Everyman wrote: "Roger wrote: "The 22 December issue of The Economist has an article about Hell ("Intero everlasting fire," pp. 25-28). They're pretty down on the idea. The article covers pretty much all the ide..."

Yes, but most seem to have some provision for postmortem punishment, or at least correction, at least for the worst offenders. Medieval Christianity does seem to go to the limit though: eternal torments for most.

[Lily]

My Barnes and Noble did not have the December 22 issue of The Economist yet today! :-(

[Thomas]

Roger wrote: ""And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life " (Mt 25:46).
.."

The ones who are damned in this verse are those who fail to feed the hungry, care for the sick, and visit the imprisoned. These are everyday sins of omission, not at all the spectacular sorts of crimes punished in Dante's hell. Is there a place in Dante's hell for "these"?

[Nemo]

Roger wrote: "The 22 December issue of The Economist has an article about Hell ("Intero everlasting fire," pp. 25-28)...."

The article is available online here: http://www.economist.com/news/christm...

Quote from the article: "Plato, who said he wanted to delete every reference to future pain from Homer as damaging to moral character;"

Plato writes about punishment (albeit not eternal) in the afterlife in the Republic, The Laws and other works. He rejects Homer's description of the gods as damaging to moral character, but accepts belief in the afterlife as moralizing the people.

The author hasn't done his/her homework properly, ISTM, which makes the credibility of his/her remaining references rather suspect.

[Lily]

Nemo wrote: "The article is available online here: http://www.economist.com/news/christm......"

Thx, Nemo. I had tried googling for it yesterday, but for some reason (probably simple error or oversight) didn't get to a site I trusted and yet could access.

[Roger]

Thomas wrote: "Roger wrote: ""And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life " (Mt 25:46).
.."

The ones who are damned in this verse are those who fail to feed the hungry, c..."

Excellent point! The hard-hearted are certainly in Christ's Hell, but not Dante's.

[Lily]

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12...

Dante's Inferno: A New Commentary by Nicola Fosca, Jason Baxter, Patrick Gardner, Robert Hollander

Did anyone here comment on this resource for The Inferno? I apologize if I have missed it.

I don't know the book, but sounds of possible interest and value if/when revisiting this section of The Divine Comedy. Nicola Fosca sounds of particular interest.

[Everyman]

Thomas seems to be right that there is no place in Dante's hell for those guilty only of sins of omission. Unless anybody can find any such?

I had never thought about the Matthew passage that way, that living a life committing no sin of commission can still land you in the Christian (but not Dantean) Hell.

[Laurel]

Everyman wrote: "Thomas seems to be right that there is no place in Dante's hell for those guilty only of sins of omission. Unless anybody can find any such?

I had never thought about the Matthew passage that w..."

Dante did not have space enough nor time to cover every sin in Inferno, so he focused on what he considered to be the "big ones." There will be plenty of the omission kind in Purgatorio, I am guessing.

[Lily]

Laurele wrote: "...he focused on what he considered to be the 'big ones.'..."

And we must ask what are the 'big ones' some 900 years later? The same? Different?

[Laurel]

Excellent, Lily.

[Lene]

The big ones today? Depends on the group.

I think within groups that are 'pious' or at least consider themselves so, the big ones are sins of sexual 'incontinence', something Dante would have put in the upper levels of Hell as sins committed because of lack of impulse control.

Within groups that do not consider themselves particularly religious, it seems that the big sins are related to violating the civil rights of others. Or the big sins are sins that still have to do with impulse control, but they will be considered big because of the magnitude of their scale (mass murder vs. murdering only one person).

[Roger]

Lene wrote: "The big ones today? Depends on the group.

I think within groups that are 'pious' or at least consider themselves so, the big ones are sins of sexual 'incontinence', something Dante would have put ..."

From what I can see, purely sexual sins are actually treated mildly even by religious folks nowadays. Primiscuity and adultery are taken seriously, but modest amounts of discrete premarital sex are pretty much accepted. Of course, standards may differ in different communities. The big sins today are those of cruelty--deliberately causing pain, harm, or distress, or indifference to the harm one causes.

[Lene]

I would agree that a contingent of our society fits your description. My comment was on the more 'puritan' of our culture. Perhaps it is really too hard to describe our own times monolithically, which just goes to show us that every time is extremely varied and cannot be boiled down to a few points of view.

[Everyman]

Lene wrote: "The big ones today? Depends on the group."

Absolutely. For some Americans, the big ones include bullying. For much of the world, that's still a minor concern, if a concern at all.

For radical Islamists in Mali, they just stoned a couple to death for having a child out of wedlock; obviously a "big one" to them but a non-event for most Westerners.

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "For radical Islamists in Mali, they just stoned a couple to death for having a child out of wedlock; obviously a "big one" to them but a non-event for most Westerners...."

Or perhaps even the centerpiece of a widely celebrated mystery (Christmas)?

For one of my takes on the topic, see my post here:
Msg 12 http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

[Lily]

Dare I post this? (Yes, I just did, but will remove it if anyone sends me an email objecting. The link was in one of the emails I received today -- and my sense of humor tonight, well, ....)

"Father Guido Sarducci Explains The Afterlife"

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/...

[Lily]

In a more serious vain, in thinking back over The Inferno, I noted that we have Judas in the mouth of Satan at the core of Hell and Caiaphas, the High Priest, and Annas, his father-in-law, and others of the Council among the "Hypocrites" in Circle 8, Bolgia 6 (Canto 23). But do the involved Roman leaders, who had to deliver any death sentence, at least as I understand historical interpretations, appear in Dante's Inferno?

(I was looking at a historical time scale last night and noted that the Inquisition was listed as starting in 1231.)

http://www.historicaltimeline.com/ht_...

[Lily]

This list of books with illustrations of The Commedia is copied from an entry originally constructed in the Purgatorio Canto I thread:

The Doré Illustrations for Dante's Divine Comedy by Gustave Doré.

Blake's Illustrations To The Divine Comedy by Albert S. Roe.

Sandro Botticelli: The Drawings for Dante's Divine Comedy by Hein-Thomas Altcappenberg.

The Drawings By Sandro Botticelli For Dante's Divine Comedy After The Originals In The Berlin Museums And The Vatican by Kenneth Clark.

William Blake and His Illustrations to the Divine Comedy by W.B. Yeats.

The Illustrations for Dante's Divine Comedy by John Flaxman.

Images of the Journey in Dante's Divine Comedy by Charles H. Taylor. Looks especially enticing.

Some or most of these might well be out of print, but library copies may be around, especially if one has access to county or state-wide collections or to college libraries. (WorldCat is a wonderful resource for finding books.) I have an inexpensive copy of The Divine Comedy with Doré's illustrations, probably bought from among B&N's famous bargain books.

[Lily]

If I ever "knew" it, I had forgotten that The Comedy was ever on the Index (Catholic Church list of banned books):

"The Comedy was put on the Index in 1614, with the injunction that certain passages be expurgated, including Inferno XIX, 48-117 (simoniac popes); Purgatorio XIX, 106-18 (on Pope Adrian V's avarice and conversion); and Paradiso IX, 136-142 (against the avarice of the Vatican high clergy)."

http://www.italnet.nd.edu/Dante/text/...

[Laurel]

Lily wrote: "If I ever "knew" it, I had forgotten that The Comedy was ever on the Index (Catholic Church list of banned books):

"The Comedy was put on the Index in 1614, with the injunction that certain passag..."

Not surprising at all. Dante sounds very much like a pre-Protestant reformer in places.

[Nemo]

If condemning Popes to Hell doesn't make you an excommunicate, I wonder what does.

[Laurel]

Exactly.

[Lily]

Laurele wrote: "Lily wrote: "If I ever "knew" it, I had forgotten that The Comedy was ever on the Index (Catholic Church list of banned books):

"The Comedy was put on the Index in 1614, with the injunction that c..."

But 1614 is 300 years after the thing was written!

[Laurel]

Amazing, isn't it?

[Laurel]

Fascinating, Patrice.

[[deleted user]]

I listened to a wonderful "Course Guide" this morning on The Inferno.

The Modern Scholar. Monsters, Gods, and Heroes: Approaching the Epic in Literature



Monsters, Gods and Heroes

[Laurel]

Adelle wrote: "I listened to a wonderful "Course Guide" this morning on The Inferno.

The Modern Scholar. Monsters, Gods, and Heroes: Approaching the Epic in Literature



[bookcover:Monsters, Gods and Heroes|709..."

I think Timothy Shutt's lectures on Dante are excellent, Adelle.

[[deleted user]]

And I have a message from my library that Lewis's Great Divorce is now in ;).

[Laurel]

Adelle wrote: "And I have a message from my library that Lewis's Great Divorce is now in ;)."

Hurrah!

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "I listened to a wonderful "Course Guide" this morning on The Inferno.

The Modern Scholar. Monsters, Gods, and Heroes: Approaching the Epic in Literature



[bookcover:Monsters, Gods and Heroes|709..."

I actually have that, from years ago. But hadn't remembered that it had anything on the Divine Comedy.

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "I actually have that, from years ago.."

Then you, sir, are a fortunate man.

It was wonderful. I listened-- to refresh my memory -- to the lectures on The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, and The Inferno. (A side benefit was that I got my kitchen cupboards and pantry cleaned and organized.)

And I thought of Louis Armstrong and I thought "Thank God I got to read all these wonderful works.". :)

You wouldn't be making a tragic mistake were you to dust it off and give it a listen.

[[deleted user]]

:)

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "You wouldn't be making a tragic mistake were you to dust it off and give it a listen. "

I was, amazingly, able to find it on my bookshelves in only about two minutes. It's been dusted off and I hope to have some extra time for listening to it this weekend (though I'll be spending most of the weekend building new windows for the hen house, so ...)

[Christina]

That's a good idea re: listening while cleaning.

I suspect this will be dreadful but hilarious:
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/dan_b...

[[deleted user]]

Sadly, because I can't read and understand Italian, I don't really get a sense of how Dante's rhyme works,

Here are two poems in English using Dante's aba bcb cdc etc rhyme.

Shelley's "Ode to the West Wind"

http://www.bartleby.com/101/610.html

Frost's "Aquainted with the Night"

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/acquai...

[[deleted user]]

This is neat:

"Virgil's family name was Maro, by which Dante calls Virgil in some of his other works.

Maro is, by chance, an anagram for Rome and amor. With a little ingenuity, those three words can be used to summarize the main themes of the whole Comedy:

1. Maro: nature and natural grace as embodied in Virgil
2. Roma: natural and supernatural authority
3. Amor: human and divine love.

Dante liked such word play" (8)

from To Hell & Back with Dante. Joseph Gallagher.To Hell & Back with Dante: A Modern Reader's Guide to the Divne Comedy

[Laurel]

Neat stuff, Adelle!

[[deleted user]]

Thank you, Laurele!

(It's a challenge for me to follow the theology. It IS hard for me to follow at times. So researching bits and pieces on the side helps me to stay engaged.)

I was familiar with the term The Unmoved Mover. But...I didn't REALY understand the term.

Galileo lived in the 1500s. Dante in the 1200s.

In Book 2, the third chapter of Convivio, "Dante explains that the third 'heaven' is that of Venus. This leads to a long astronomical digression. Aristotle had stated that the heavens were eight in muber. The truth, discovered by Ptolomy, is that there are nine heaverns, ascending from the earth in the following order (which was retained in Dante's Paradiso: Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Fixed Stars, and the Primum Mobile.

The ninth, invisible heaven answered the need to explain motion in Aristotelian physics. According to the Greek philosopher, physical motion cannot be explained solely in terms of physical principles; it must depend on some immaterial cause, in order to breath through the vicious circle of mover and object moved.

This immaterial cause--the unmoved mover--is, in Christian terms, God, whose power of attraction over the Primum Mobile is so strong that the latter is propelled by the swiftest motion, since motion, when not due to a physical cuase, is the result of unsatisfied longing.

The Primum Mobile is motivated by its intense desire to be united with God, while it transmits motion to the rest of the universe.

Finally, outside both space and time is found the tenth heaven or Empyrean, 'posited by Catholics' (Conv. 2.3.8), the abode of God and the blessed souls, 'according to the teaching of the Holy Church, which cannot lie; and Aristotle seems to indicate this to those who understand him correctly' (Conv. 2.3.10).

Possessing all that can possibly be desired, the Empyrean is a place of perfect peace, hense motionless, situated in the very mide of God and encompassing the entire universe (Conv. 2.3.11)" (Scott, Understanding Dante, p117.

[I turn the pages and read here and there where it looks interesting.]

Alternatively, Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_...

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "The truth, discovered by Ptolomy,..."

Those are such hard words to comprehend, given his earth-centric astronomy.

[[deleted user]]

LOL. OK...:)..."the truth" ...

Yes. I should have put quotation marks around that!

"The truth"...circa 1300.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Sadly, because I can't read and understand Italian, I don't really get a sense of how Dante's rhyme works,"

Dorothy Sayers followed this rhyme scheme in her translation, so if you can find one of her volumes, you can experience it. It's fairly mesmerizing over the course of a whole canto.